can we expect 3d/eax in future ?

inteks · Aug 4, 2003, 02:11 PM

can we?

cya
tom

synic0 · Aug 8, 2003, 05:47 AM

Forget EAX, because it is a proprietary Creative product. A3D was also effectively killed by Creative when they purchased Aureal. So essentially the only real viable solution (without shelling out money for EAX priviledges and making kX project no longer free) is to go the OpenAL route (which, incidentally Creative offers the SDK so it seems they are hedging their bets).

inteks · Aug 8, 2003, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by synic0
Forget EAX, because it is a proprietary Creative product.

1. my audigy IS a Creative Product too !!
2. i like the ReverbFx in Unreal and other games!
3. i think it easier to implement EAX because eax=creative and card=creative
(eugene, please correct me if its wrong)

cya
tom

Daniel Drummond · Aug 8, 2003, 06:07 PM

As far as I remember the KX team will implement EAX someday, but they're not in a hurry for it as there are more important stuff to program in the drivers, like musician's oriented ones. Search the forum about this and you'll see what I mean...

**Eugene Gavrilov** · Aug 8, 2003, 11:18 PM

yep, impementing all the EAX1/2/3 stuff isn't so easy as one might imagine. a good reverberation engine, low-pass and high-pass filters, attenuation and spatialization, HRTF etc, etc, etc...
it all requires a lot of human*hours to be implemented

anyway, we are working on it at the moment (more or less

)

/Eugene

synic0 · Aug 9, 2003, 07:02 PM

Heh... most games that use EAX are only using things like echo chamber effects to make it sound like you are "inside", but end up just sounding like you are inside someone's sewage pipes... :P

although games that use head tracking for surround sound on effects like bullet tracers and such are way more immersive...

MechanimaL · Sep 28, 2003, 08:04 PM

first i have to say: even though i dont use the whole features of kx drivers, it provided me with the little tweaks i missed in the standard drivers and i m glad i can use them for mixing and mastering the songs i recorded with my band. thx !

meanwhile i m used to play half-life and mods for a long time, and i was always happy to have the eax back to my sb128pci, where i could exactly hear whether a sound comes from the back or front of me. this is extremly helpfull in an ego-shooter

so now that im using kx-drivers (and sb-audigy) for all the benefits with recording, id also like to see it doing the eax features (just the in front / from the back) like the 128 pci has already done.

what i noticed using the 5, 10, 00, 3534f drivers is that eax seems to work ( i hear the sound from the back and it is differing from the front's one, but: it is way too calm.

its really hard too notice. it just had to be louder i think.

maybe it is possible to do this by myself somewhere in the settings or can you imagine what it is and tell me if you will perhaps make this a bit better. thx

ps: i have to say i m using only headphones no surround system.

igor_levicki · Dec 23, 2003, 01:35 AM

I wonder how other hardware vendors (like Realtek and Crystal Media) manage to support at least some level of EAX (I think EAX2) in their drivers? Where did they get implementation details?
As far as reverb engine is concerned EAX uses Feedback Delay Networks model and that is quite well explained on the web.
Presets for reverb seem to be standard (cave, underwater, sewer pipe,...) since other hardware manufacturers know them or they wouldn't be able to implement them.
Positional audio and occlusion and obstruction are the most complicated parts and I even think that biggest part of the work is done by driver itself and not by DSP.
It would really require a lot of resources to implement it but it would be a giant step up for kX project indeed because IMHO gamer community has more money to donate to the fund than amateur musicians

Personally I would like to see at least reverb engine and the ability for games to change reverb presets via EAX interface. That shouldn't be so hard to implement.

**Eugene Gavrilov** · Dec 28, 2003, 02:49 AM

>> other hardware vendors

most of them use the same Sensaura-based engine
there are two main EAX engines available at the moment: CL, Sensaura
there's also QSound with some EAX support
that's it

>> IMHO gamer community has more money to donate to the fund than amateur musicians

yes, but we will never manage to compete CL drivers in gaming performance (at least, not in the near future)

as for the 'quick and dirty' implementation, yes, EAX1 is very easy to implement

/E

kode54 · Jan 5, 2004, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Eugene Gavrilov

Sensaura

... which is now belongs to Creative.

mbeeston · Jan 5, 2004, 07:05 PM

no they don't... check thier news

HolyAvenger · Jan 5, 2004, 09:35 PM

As a gamer I've been checking the KX drivers every now and then, hoping for EAX being finally implemented. I'm just so sick of the crashes with the CL drivers that I frequently have with my Live 5.1. Every time the todo list grows a position smaller, I get my hopes up....in vain up to now. And now the latest KX drivers have SMP issues...which hurts me, as I've got a dual P3 system here. I might just as well give up hope for my Live and get some other card, a Hercules maybe. Just certainly nothing CL anymore.

Edit: EAX support does seem to be in high demand, at least judging from the amount of thread views. 2nd most viewed thread in the forum.

**Eugene Gavrilov** · Jan 6, 2004, 02:49 AM

>> no they don't... check thier news

unfortunately, they are
review this article: http://www.sensaura.com/corporate/in...le=history.htm (the very bottom)

so, we are very sorry to say that there's currently NO independent 3-D audio engine available anymore...
(we don't count QSound as a real competitor... NVidia drivers were somewhat sensaura-based)

/E

HolyAvenger · Jan 6, 2004, 11:26 AM

I sure hope Creative Labs will go down, better sooner than later. They're sucking up every competition like a big black hole, and their own drivers don't get any better. Now EAX is completely in CL's hands, proprietary like 3dfx Glide was. And we all know what happened to 3dfx.

Wam7 · Jan 10, 2004, 12:14 PM

I'm also a little like HolyAvenger in that I've been watching the development of the KX drivers since their incipience and the one thing I've scanned for is some form of EAX. Now I'm not technically proficient enough to gauge how easy/hard this is to implement but I'm starting to appreciate how much these drivers already go beyond the standard CL drivers.

As a extreme hobbyist musician (with too many bills to afford a 2496 card just yet) these drivers are a God send. They allowed me to use Gigastudio (though I've now started using Kontakt) and reduced the latency in CubaseSX. I suspect they'll also cure the Spdif output that my brother is having with the current CL drivers.

EAX would be very nice but mainly it would just save me the 20 secs or to switch back to the CL drivers if I want to game with EAX.

Although it may not be voiced often, I'm sure I don't speak for myself when I convey my gratitude for the excellent work the KX team is doing. (EAX or not )

Aug 4, 2003, 02:11 PM	#1
inteks HardwareHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Germany Posts: 90 Rep Power: 0	can we expect 3d/eax in future ? can we? cya tom __________________ 3820TG i5@3.5Ghz HD5650@700/900 Windows7 On Intel X25-M G2 Postville 160GB 3820tray --- 3820TG ATI vBios MOD --- 1810t TME MOD --- Acc Sensor Mod

Aug 8, 2003, 06:07 PM	#4
Daniel Drummond DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Brazil Posts: 1,137 Rep Power: 0	As far as I remember the KX team will implement EAX someday, but they're not in a hurry for it as there are more important stuff to program in the drivers, like musician's oriented ones. Search the forum about this and you'll see what I mean... __________________ www.palcomp3.com.br/ed

Dec 23, 2003, 01:35 AM	#8
igor_levicki Intel Black Belt Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Belgrade, Serbia Posts: 128 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	I wonder how other hardware vendors (like Realtek and Crystal Media) manage to support at least some level of EAX (I think EAX2) in their drivers? Where did they get implementation details? As far as reverb engine is concerned EAX uses Feedback Delay Networks model and that is quite well explained on the web. Presets for reverb seem to be standard (cave, underwater, sewer pipe,...) since other hardware manufacturers know them or they wouldn't be able to implement them. Positional audio and occlusion and obstruction are the most complicated parts and I even think that biggest part of the work is done by driver itself and not by DSP. It would really require a lot of resources to implement it but it would be a giant step up for kX project indeed because IMHO gamer community has more money to donate to the fund than amateur musicians Personally I would like to see at least reverb engine and the ability for games to change reverb presets via EAX interface. That shouldn't be so hard to implement. __________________ Regards, Igor Levicki -- Creative Audigy 2 ZS Retail (SB0350) kX 3538h

Jan 5, 2004, 07:05 PM	#11
mbeeston HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: alberta, canada (thats north of the usa people) Posts: 1,037 Rep Power: 66 System Specs	no they don't... check thier news __________________ R.I.P Roadee - you will be missed T_T peace,love, and war... 3 things people look for... "if your going off the deep end, show off, do a cannon ball!" - me

Aug 8, 2003, 05:47 AM	#2
synic0 DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4 Rep Power: 0	Forget EAX, because it is a proprietary Creative product. A3D was also effectively killed by Creative when they purchased Aureal. So essentially the only real viable solution (without shelling out money for EAX priviledges and making kX project no longer free) is to go the OpenAL route (which, incidentally Creative offers the SDK so it seems they are hedging their bets).

Aug 8, 2003, 11:18 PM	#5
Eugene Gavrilov kX Project Lead Programmer and Coordinator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3,106 Rep Power: 73	yep, impementing all the EAX1/2/3 stuff isn't so easy as one might imagine. a good reverberation engine, low-pass and high-pass filters, attenuation and spatialization, HRTF etc, etc, etc... it all requires a lot of human*hours to be implemented anyway, we are working on it at the moment (more or less ) /Eugene

Aug 9, 2003, 07:02 PM	#6
synic0 DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 4 Rep Power: 0	Heh... most games that use EAX are only using things like echo chamber effects to make it sound like you are "inside", but end up just sounding like you are inside someone's sewage pipes... :P although games that use head tracking for surround sound on effects like bullet tracers and such are way more immersive...

Sep 28, 2003, 08:04 PM	#7
MechanimaL DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 26 Rep Power: 0	first i have to say: even though i dont use the whole features of kx drivers, it provided me with the little tweaks i missed in the standard drivers and i m glad i can use them for mixing and mastering the songs i recorded with my band. thx ! meanwhile i m used to play half-life and mods for a long time, and i was always happy to have the eax back to my sb128pci, where i could exactly hear whether a sound comes from the back or front of me. this is extremly helpfull in an ego-shooter so now that im using kx-drivers (and sb-audigy) for all the benefits with recording, id also like to see it doing the eax features (just the in front / from the back) like the 128 pci has already done. what i noticed using the 5, 10, 00, 3534f drivers is that eax seems to work ( i hear the sound from the back and it is differing from the front's one, but: it is way too calm. its really hard too notice. it just had to be louder i think. maybe it is possible to do this by myself somewhere in the settings or can you imagine what it is and tell me if you will perhaps make this a bit better. thx ps: i have to say i m using only headphones no surround system.

Dec 28, 2003, 02:49 AM	#9
Eugene Gavrilov kX Project Lead Programmer and Coordinator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3,106 Rep Power: 73	>> other hardware vendors most of them use the same Sensaura-based engine there are two main EAX engines available at the moment: CL, Sensaura there's also QSound with some EAX support that's it >> IMHO gamer community has more money to donate to the fund than amateur musicians yes, but we will never manage to compete CL drivers in gaming performance (at least, not in the near future) as for the 'quick and dirty' implementation, yes, EAX1 is very easy to implement /E

Jan 5, 2004, 09:35 PM	#12
HolyAvenger DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 83 Rep Power: 0	As a gamer I've been checking the KX drivers every now and then, hoping for EAX being finally implemented. I'm just so sick of the crashes with the CL drivers that I frequently have with my Live 5.1. Every time the todo list grows a position smaller, I get my hopes up....in vain up to now. And now the latest KX drivers have SMP issues...which hurts me, as I've got a dual P3 system here. I might just as well give up hope for my Live and get some other card, a Hercules maybe. Just certainly nothing CL anymore. Edit: EAX support does seem to be in high demand, at least judging from the amount of thread views. 2nd most viewed thread in the forum.

Jan 6, 2004, 02:49 AM	#13
Eugene Gavrilov kX Project Lead Programmer and Coordinator Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 3,106 Rep Power: 73	>> no they don't... check thier news unfortunately, they are review this article: http://www.sensaura.com/corporate/in...le=history.htm (the very bottom) so, we are very sorry to say that there's currently NO independent 3-D audio engine available anymore... (we don't count QSound as a real competitor... NVidia drivers were somewhat sensaura-based) /E

Jan 6, 2004, 11:26 AM	#14
HolyAvenger DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 83 Rep Power: 0	I sure hope Creative Labs will go down, better sooner than later. They're sucking up every competition like a big black hole, and their own drivers don't get any better. Now EAX is completely in CL's hands, proprietary like 3dfx Glide was. And we all know what happened to 3dfx.

Jan 10, 2004, 12:14 PM	#15
Wam7 DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 11 Rep Power: 0	I'm also a little like HolyAvenger in that I've been watching the development of the KX drivers since their incipience and the one thing I've scanned for is some form of EAX. Now I'm not technically proficient enough to gauge how easy/hard this is to implement but I'm starting to appreciate how much these drivers already go beyond the standard CL drivers. As a extreme hobbyist musician (with too many bills to afford a 2496 card just yet) these drivers are a God send. They allowed me to use Gigastudio (though I've now started using Kontakt) and reduced the latency in CubaseSX. I suspect they'll also cure the Spdif output that my brother is having with the current CL drivers. EAX would be very nice but mainly it would just save me the 20 secs or to switch back to the CL drivers if I want to game with EAX. Although it may not be voiced often, I'm sure I don't speak for myself when I convey my gratitude for the excellent work the KX team is doing. (EAX or not )