Eugene Gavrilov - Eax Support

JGSF · Sep 13, 2004, 02:53 PM

Why don't you use a software solution to do that?

facundo montoya · Sep 16, 2004, 11:57 PM

do you know software with solution similar to time scaling? - I mean real time stretch with good quality sound? Would you care to enlighten me? I'll be grateful!

JGSF · Sep 17, 2004, 01:12 AM

I think Sound Forge can do that. I'm not sure.

**dj_stick** · Sep 17, 2004, 02:29 AM

soundforge can, logic can, not sure of any other programs

classic_leon · Sep 18, 2004, 10:03 PM

Nowadays, gamers can't live without EAX.

Sandok · Sep 18, 2004, 10:17 PM

Agreed EAX is great and I need it :P

facundo montoya · Sep 19, 2004, 01:46 AM

to: dj_stick and Johnny1982; thanks for support of "time scaling".
Logic, cubase, sound forge etc. can do that with audio process known as the time stretch.
But this is not the same. there is a little nuance between the audio process and effect
(or whatever it is) from the EAX console-"time scaling"
In "time stretch"(audio process from software) you need have a lot of time, and place on hard drive to change speed. You need interfere to the record/file and change it completly to new different file. It is necessary to rip the audio file If you work with original CD-Records previously.
But I need quick speed tranformation like creative "time scaling" from their EAX console. For example; I often rip the solos from the records only by my ear and quick "speed changer" is very usefull for me. I've noticed also that the sound quality is better in the event of "time scaling"

facundo montoya · Oct 5, 2004, 03:20 PM

Hey Everybody!
I found solution similar(identical) to real time-"time scaling" from EAX console.
new cubase sx3 can do that!
This is first known application with this solution.

kelston · Oct 12, 2004, 11:37 AM

I don't use the kX drivers because of the fact that EAX is not supported. If I want good audio without EAX, I just reboot and use the hardware profile that uses my modded Revo.

The audio is kind of crappy with Creative drivers, sure, but I bought the Aud 2 for the sole purpose of gaming. It would be nice to have improved audio but throwing away EAX throws away my 100 bucks.

I don't know why some people are saying EAX isn't really an improvement when it provides so much better sound placement in games. I can't hear the footsteps from across the map on my Revo with Sensaura, the Audigy 2 lets me do that. And that's what makes it important.

The kX drivers are great, but to write drivers for Creative cards really needs to support the biggest feature of it. Otherwise, kX people should be off writing drivers for good base audio cards like Revo since M-Audio hasn't updated the drivers in half a year.

**dj_stick** · Oct 12, 2004, 11:57 AM

the biggest feature of the 10kX series is the 10kX chip itself, low latency dsp processor
try playing a game turning EAX off - you will still get directional sound

kelston · Oct 12, 2004, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj_stick

try playing a game turning EAX off - you will still get directional sound

I'm sure there is, it's just not close to the same. I have EAX off in America's Army for the Revo 7.1 Sensaura libraries. One of the most obvious differences is on the Pipeline map, which revolves around attacking or defending an oil refinery. With the Aud 2 EAX on, I can actually hear oil running through the pipes. No matter how high (before it reaches the point of causing hearing damage since I use headphones) I turn the volume with EAX off, I don't hear it. That's really big.

I think the biggest feature is EAX based on the fact that it's the largest selling point of the chip. Creative isn't pushing the chip onto hi-fi audio people, they're pushing environmental audio on people who play games. The Aud 2 suffers from the same thing a stock Revo did for audio. There is just subpar buffers, subpar opamps and hurts whatever chip each has. M-Audio changed the opamps to something better, i'm waiting to hope Creative one day realizes this too.

**dj_stick** · Oct 14, 2004, 11:23 AM

well i have to say this
EAX support is not up to Eugene, it is up to Creative releasing the EAX presets and such to Eugene so he can add it to kX - i guess if you really want it you can start an unofficial petition

Foolou · Oct 17, 2004, 06:20 PM

EAX is simply a step in the wrong direction.

We need some sort of product that supports real 3D-echo-effects derived from the displayed 3D-world. A combination of what you see and hear.
The vortex chips looked really promising for stuff like that .. too bad they got bought by creative.

Right now EAX might sound cool, but it's the wrong technology for 3D-games, even creative knows that.

kelston · Oct 17, 2004, 07:01 PM

You're stuck with EAX anyway, plain and simple.

No matter what Creative does to buy out and bankrupt their competitors, from Aureal to Sensaura to those Vortex chips, no one seems to care enough to take action against them. Apparently Microsoft doing this was determined to be anti-competitive practices but what Creative does is perfectly good.

DMNXS · Nov 4, 2004, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kelston

You're stuck with EAX anyway, plain and simple.

Unless sme major soundcard manufacturer like Terratec brings out their own technology (which I highly doubt).

Quote:

Originally Posted by kelston

No matter what Creative does to buy out and bankrupt their competitors, from Aureal to Sensaura to those Vortex chips, no one seems to care enough to take action against them. Apparently Microsoft doing this was determined to be anti-competitive practices but what Creative does is perfectly good.

I agree, but EAX3.0/4.0 is indeed nice-sounding, only thing is imho that the 10kx chips have little power compared to 'real' DSPs (even EMUs soundcards DSP is almost useless, and the effects don't even work at 88.2 and 96 kHz!).

Plasmafusion · Dec 1, 2004, 03:25 PM

EAX is very important !

**dj_stick** · Dec 2, 2004, 02:28 AM

DMNXS - the EMU card's DSP IS the 10k2 architecture

*Ray Adams* · Dec 12, 2004, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Drummond

EAX has no use for musicians, and to attend musicians is the original purpose of kx drivers...

Yeah, you right, but I think , proffesional musician doesn't use Creative Products

. Personaly, a few years ago, I've used Yamaha sound cards for music, and I can say. NO soundfont banks (even bigged in size than 100Mb) can give better MIDI sound than Yamaha!

.
But now I need Sound Card for Games and for music listening (mp3 and so on) while working on my software projects. EAX is one of the important part of Creative products, thats why I bought it. I hope that, author of Kx project will be able ot implement EAX support in next releases!

**dj_stick** · Dec 13, 2004, 03:50 AM

EAX is dependant on CL releasing the EAX specs to Eugene

no amount of pleading/demanding whatever, here at least, will change that

kelston · Dec 13, 2004, 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj_stick

EAX is dependant on CL releasing the EAX specs to Eugene

no amount of pleading/demanding whatever, here at least, will change that

And we all know that will never happen since CL is working hard at being a monopoly of game audio specifications.

I wonder why Microsoft buying out rivals is a monopoly but CL doing it isn't.

**Eugene Gavrilov** · Dec 15, 2004, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj_stick

EAX is dependant on CL releasing the EAX specs to Eugene
no amount of pleading/demanding whatever, here at least, will change that

it also depends on:
1. availability of 3-rd party reverberation engine (the ones bundled with the driver are not -equal- to Creative one)
2. people willing to -develop- EAX
3. time
4. time
(5. time?...)

E.

Samir · Dec 15, 2004, 05:38 AM

>> availability of 3-rd party reverberation engine (the ones bundled with the driver are not -equal- to Creative one)

Just curios, but does it HAVE TO be equal to creative's reverb engine??? If we knew reverb presets, actually the way they should sound, it would be possible to write custom reverb effect & link it with EAX API so that presets do change inside games.

I imagine EAX as one big, games-dedicated, DSP setup, with many "mono EAX Reverb" effects, all of them tweakable in realtime by EAX API...

Maybe it would be possible to implement something VERY simple, EAX1 simulation, for start...

kelston · Dec 15, 2004, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samir

>> availability of 3-rd party reverberation engine (the ones bundled with the driver are not -equal- to Creative one)

Just curios, but does it HAVE TO be equal to creative's reverb engine??? If we knew reverb presets, actually the way they should sound, it would be possible to write custom reverb effect & link it with EAX API so that presets do change inside games.

I imagine EAX as one big, games-dedicated, DSP setup, with many "mono EAX Reverb" effects, all of them tweakable in realtime by EAX API...

Maybe it would be possible to implement something VERY simple, EAX1 simulation, for start...

To try to do that would take an army of testers and a big team of programmers. You'd basically be reverse engineering sound rather than code to try and simulate EAX using a reverb utility. It'd be easier to come up with your own EAX alternative, try to sell it to games developers and soundchip manufacturers, and try to have it work in current games than to try and simulate full EAX.

Samir · Dec 15, 2004, 02:51 PM

EAX aternative? Why not? It only has to be EAX compatibile @ API level...

We should call it "kEAX" or "EAkX"...

**Eugene Gavrilov** · Dec 17, 2004, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Samir

Just curios, but does it HAVE TO be equal to creative's reverb engine??? If we knew reverb presets, actually the way they should sound, it would be possible to write custom reverb effect & link it with EAX API so that presets do change inside games.

I imagine EAX as one big, games-dedicated, DSP setup, with many "mono EAX Reverb" effects, all of them tweakable in realtime by EAX API...

Maybe it would be possible to implement something VERY simple, EAX1 simulation, for start...

not exactly. the present driver code already has some kernel-level EAX support, however it is not active, since there's no reverb engine. yes, implementing EAX1 shouldn't be too difficult. if you are interested, let me know. probably, discussing this online (ICQ/MSN) might be a better idea.

DMNXS · Dec 23, 2004, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dj_stick

DMNXS - the EMU card's DSP IS the 10k2 architecture

Yoou mean like the EMU 1812!? Didn't know that

. (I did know the APS were 10kx)

**dj_stick** · Dec 24, 2004, 12:21 AM

yes, but only for the DSP effects (as i understand) the rest of the routing is handled by other chip, for true 24/96

adi111p · Jan 29, 2005, 10:49 AM

I would say that developping EAX support in kX drivers is in a way pointless...

1) EAX is not a real 3D audio! (A3D was but ... thanks to Creative not anymore)
2) Even Audigy2 is not suited for games, because almost all games use 44.1KHz samplerate sounds, which will produce SRC IMD, so 10kx cards are useless here (even for D3D)

Even for musicians this soundcard is useless, the DSP that we can use is working only at 16bit/48KHz, so no improvement since SBLive! cards.

3) I don't think Creative will improve EAX, since it doesn't seem to even try to use technology bought from Aureal or Sensaura. Audigy2 is a confirmation of this politics, because it is just an SBLive! but with 24/96 capability - but only in the special condition that you do not do anything with the DSP. This is what I leaned in school that is called "Bad Design", and this card is full of it.

What I would suggest to Eugene is to try to get anything useful from Creative (Like A3D specs, EAX specs) and try to use A3D technology for 3D audio (by replacing D3D or EAX specs with A3D implementation) and this would create the needed stuff for gamers

For musicians I would suggest Eugene to drop trying to improve support 10kx DSP's and find a similar DSP but what works on real 96KHz/24bit internally, and the only solution for this now seems to be VIA's Envy24HT used in MAudio Revo soundcard, but before this I would suggest to find out if it is really a true 96/24DSP (if not stick to 10kx).

BTW Audigy2 has 64 hw buffers while Vortex2 in '98 had 128 hw buffers and 96 hw 3d buffers - that is a lot at that time, I think this combined with A3D scared the shit out of Creative

Sep 18, 2004, 10:03 PM	#35
classic_leon HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Wu Han, Hu Bei, P.R.China Posts: 1,238 Rep Power: 0	Nowadays, gamers can't live without EAX. __________________ Fashion keeps us alive. YouP-PAX Please visit http://www.A-PAX.co.uk to discuss the computer mods. The latest YouP PAX modded drivers are provided on the site.

Sep 19, 2004, 01:46 AM	#37
facundo montoya DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: new york Posts: 7 Rep Power: 0	to: dj_stick and Johnny1982; thanks for support of "time scaling". Logic, cubase, sound forge etc. can do that with audio process known as the time stretch. But this is not the same. there is a little nuance between the audio process and effect (or whatever it is) from the EAX console-"time scaling" In "time stretch"(audio process from software) you need have a lot of time, and place on hard drive to change speed. You need interfere to the record/file and change it completly to new different file. It is necessary to rip the audio file If you work with original CD-Records previously. But I need quick speed tranformation like creative "time scaling" from their EAX console. For example; I often rip the solos from the records only by my ear and quick "speed changer" is very usefull for me. I've noticed also that the sound quality is better in the event of "time scaling" Last edited by facundo montoya; Sep 19, 2004 at 01:52 AM.

Dec 15, 2004, 05:38 AM	#52
Samir kX Lover Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 520 Rep Power: 0	>> availability of 3-rd party reverberation engine (the ones bundled with the driver are not -equal- to Creative one) Just curios, but does it HAVE TO be equal to creative's reverb engine??? If we knew reverb presets, actually the way they should sound, it would be possible to write custom reverb effect & link it with EAX API so that presets do change inside games. I imagine EAX as one big, games-dedicated, DSP setup, with many "mono EAX Reverb" effects, all of them tweakable in realtime by EAX API... Maybe it would be possible to implement something VERY simple, EAX1 simulation, for start... __________________ MU3NKA 3A HAPO6!

Dec 15, 2004, 02:51 PM	#54
Samir kX Lover Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 520 Rep Power: 0	EAX aternative? Why not? It only has to be EAX compatibile @ API level... We should call it "kEAX" or "EAkX"... __________________ MU3NKA 3A HAPO6!

Sep 13, 2004, 02:53 PM	#31
JGSF HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 452 Rep Power: 0	Why don't you use a software solution to do that?

Sep 16, 2004, 11:57 PM	#32
facundo montoya DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: new york Posts: 7 Rep Power: 0	do you know software with solution similar to time scaling? - I mean real time stretch with good quality sound? Would you care to enlighten me? I'll be grateful!

Sep 17, 2004, 01:12 AM	#33
JGSF HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 452 Rep Power: 0	I think Sound Forge can do that. I'm not sure.

Sep 18, 2004, 10:17 PM	#36
Sandok DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 9,472 Rep Power: 66	Agreed EAX is great and I need it :P

Oct 5, 2004, 03:20 PM	#38
facundo montoya DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: new york Posts: 7 Rep Power: 0	Hey Everybody! I found solution similar(identical) to real time-"time scaling" from EAX console. new cubase sx3 can do that! This is first known application with this solution.

Oct 12, 2004, 11:37 AM	#39
kelston HardwareHeaven Addict Join Date: May 2003 Location: Bayside, NY USA Posts: 360 Rep Power: 0	I don't use the kX drivers because of the fact that EAX is not supported. If I want good audio without EAX, I just reboot and use the hardware profile that uses my modded Revo. The audio is kind of crappy with Creative drivers, sure, but I bought the Aud 2 for the sole purpose of gaming. It would be nice to have improved audio but throwing away EAX throws away my 100 bucks. I don't know why some people are saying EAX isn't really an improvement when it provides so much better sound placement in games. I can't hear the footsteps from across the map on my Revo with Sensaura, the Audigy 2 lets me do that. And that's what makes it important. The kX drivers are great, but to write drivers for Creative cards really needs to support the biggest feature of it. Otherwise, kX people should be off writing drivers for good base audio cards like Revo since M-Audio hasn't updated the drivers in half a year.

Oct 17, 2004, 06:20 PM	#43
Foolou DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 25 Rep Power: 0	EAX is simply a step in the wrong direction. We need some sort of product that supports real 3D-echo-effects derived from the displayed 3D-world. A combination of what you see and hear. The vortex chips looked really promising for stuff like that .. too bad they got bought by creative. Right now EAX might sound cool, but it's the wrong technology for 3D-games, even creative knows that.

Oct 17, 2004, 07:01 PM	#44
kelston HardwareHeaven Addict Join Date: May 2003 Location: Bayside, NY USA Posts: 360 Rep Power: 0	You're stuck with EAX anyway, plain and simple. No matter what Creative does to buy out and bankrupt their competitors, from Aureal to Sensaura to those Vortex chips, no one seems to care enough to take action against them. Apparently Microsoft doing this was determined to be anti-competitive practices but what Creative does is perfectly good.

Dec 1, 2004, 03:25 PM	#46
Plasmafusion DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: May 2003 Posts: 7 Rep Power: 0	EAX is very important !

Jan 29, 2005, 10:49 AM	#58
adi111p Sound Quality Freak Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 51 Rep Power: 0	I would say that developping EAX support in kX drivers is in a way pointless... 1) EAX is not a real 3D audio! (A3D was but ... thanks to Creative not anymore) 2) Even Audigy2 is not suited for games, because almost all games use 44.1KHz samplerate sounds, which will produce SRC IMD, so 10kx cards are useless here (even for D3D) Even for musicians this soundcard is useless, the DSP that we can use is working only at 16bit/48KHz, so no improvement since SBLive! cards. 3) I don't think Creative will improve EAX, since it doesn't seem to even try to use technology bought from Aureal or Sensaura. Audigy2 is a confirmation of this politics, because it is just an SBLive! but with 24/96 capability - but only in the special condition that you do not do anything with the DSP. This is what I leaned in school that is called "Bad Design", and this card is full of it. What I would suggest to Eugene is to try to get anything useful from Creative (Like A3D specs, EAX specs) and try to use A3D technology for 3D audio (by replacing D3D or EAX specs with A3D implementation) and this would create the needed stuff for gamers For musicians I would suggest Eugene to drop trying to improve support 10kx DSP's and find a similar DSP but what works on real 96KHz/24bit internally, and the only solution for this now seems to be VIA's Envy24HT used in MAudio Revo soundcard, but before this I would suggest to find out if it is really a true 96/24DSP (if not stick to 10kx). BTW Audigy2 has 64 hw buffers while Vortex2 in '98 had 128 hw buffers and 96 hw 3d buffers - that is a lot at that time, I think this combined with A3D scared the shit out of Creative