Suddenly, Tv is protected??? - More AIW help.

lordof7 · Mar 27, 2006, 07:36 PM

So I recently updated my drivers (to 6.3) and MMC(to 9.13) on my AIW 9800 pro. I was having problems with the 9.13 MMC, so I uninstalled it and reinstalled 9.03. Everything was then working well. Until I tried to record some TV. I kept getting a message: "Broadcast protected, stopping recording". I am aware this usually is a macrovision detection thing but:
1. This was a cable TV signal. No macrovision (well, at least i THINK.)
2. Before the upgrade, I never saw this message. I had upgraded from older drivers (4.x?) and an older MMC (Either 8.8 or 9.03 - can't remember.) So i'm pretty sure its a software problem. I have heard that starting with 5.3 that macrovision detection was MUCH more sensitive.

Anyone else have this problem? How did you fix it? I may try and use older WDM with the newer cats, but I don't know if that will work. Additionally, I have noticed that the program will continue to record as long as I don't click 'ok' on the warning box. Will this box screw up scheduled recording? Thanks.

H3X4D3C1M4L · Mar 27, 2006, 09:20 PM

I don't like the sound of this.... at all...

Try downgrading to Catalyst 5.13 and see if the problem remains.... that's....scary...

kbuzzard · Mar 29, 2006, 01:48 PM

I haven't posted in some time but if you will check my previous posts , I mentioned things up the road.
Thanks to "Old Buzzards" super software tip, I am inspired as re-pay of sorts to pass up some tips for you AIW folks.
1) NetFramework is NEEDED for CCC, Nero,CloneCD,CloneDVD etc,etc,etc. NetFramework IS NOT YOUR FRIEND. It adds start-up password om XP, memory hog, and frankly it is an OVER-Eager digital copy flag.
2) Congress has been on CSpan trying to protect US from RIAA (record people - YEA, remember the old LP's?), NAB (remember casettes and Reel to Reels, OH YEA,The F.C.C. Actually Congress and FCC are more on OUR side in this as is Consumer Electronics - ATI,NVidia and OH Yea -IPOD <<<< All these people are trying to make Digital recording a PAY TO DO Buisness but can't get in sync to do fairly - check me out on this this.
3) ATI has called me twice and I DID not wimp out on this BUT Mr X says that marketing DOES NOT WANT THIS INFO OUT, WHY, read above. I FIRMLY beleive they do not want to tread there, Thay are Canadian based !!!!.
4) My father was an electronics nut, TV serviceman and I grew up absorbing this and followed FCC since the late 50's - YEA< I'm an old fart too.
Words of advice and I AM NO supreme voice, just an end user like YOU.
NOW, IF you doubt all this , check out for YOURSELF.
I strongly recomend you do a GOOGLE search on 2 softwares.
1) CasperXP, or your flavor, You need to "Clone" you HDD or your OS. I NOW can tell you SP2 IS fixable - as far as MCE -------- sorry, I'd format etc but you have special hardware most likely and probably not reading this anyway
2) Hyper Os 2005 if you run W2K or XP SP 1 or 2. THIS IS AWESOME STUFF. On 1 HDD you can "EASILY" run 2-22 copies of XP and Clone,Delete,Install "On the Fly". OR THE CATS FANNY IS.........
LIFE and LIVING WITH AN AIW CARD, You put the basic OS, I.E. SP2 on "C"
and THEN, Clone to "D" and can Clone to E,F,G,H,I etc,etc and play with DRIVERS until you get it right, screw-up, delete,clone, do it again SAM.
GET YOUR AIW CORRECT, leave it, back it up for the day you need it. NOW put games etc on another partition.
IMPORTANT
WITH EXCEPTION of VIDEO DRIVERS ONLY,You NEED to STOP using WDM,MMC Drivers newer than MMC 9.03 OR YOU WILL NOT be happy.
Sorry for lengthy messages but this is IMPORTANT. I am running SP2 with up to MARCH updates, CAT 6.3 (newest) Video drivers, WDM_XP from my ATI CD that is CAT 2.5!!!!!!!!, Current DVD soft and MMC 9.03 and working GREAT.Your AIW MMC etc does NOT require NetFramework etc to function, use THAT "SPYWARE" on your other system drives with games etc. Oh yea, go here and read daily about the way thing are degrading, http://www.warp2search.net/. NO, I have "0" to do with it.....

ROBSCIX · Mar 29, 2006, 05:28 PM

NO I don't like the sound of that either, but then again I didn't like the new MMC anyway. Just downgrade and everything should be alright. This is getting to a problem.

OldBuzzard · Mar 30, 2006, 02:54 AM

Just to add a little more info on HyperOS.... HOS 2005 has been discontinued.

I'm a beta tester for them and they just released a version called HyoerOS 64 Geek and HyoerOS 64 Super Geek which are replacing HOS 2005. These versions allow you to use 11/22 versions of Win 2000, XP, or XP x64.

SO, if you want to play with x64, you can do it without having to abandon your original XP.

More info here: http://www.hyperossystems.co.uk/

lordof7 · Mar 30, 2006, 02:23 PM

Well, I've been doing some testing and I have more info about my problem. Some good news, some bad news. Good news: Even though the little window pops up saying "Broadcast is protected, stopping recording now." It will NOT stop if you don't click "OK". (Many of you probably know this already.) However, the program will not close when finished recording, if you set it to (although the recording itself will start and stop at the specified time.) This is fine unless you want to record more than one thing. I have found that a scheduled shutdown will close the program gracefully, and your recording is saved where it should be. Therefore, killing the MMC with taskkill, or scheduling a reboot between your programs should allow you to record shows as normal.

All fixed right? Heh. Now for the Bad news... I am now using MMC 9.03, which doesn't have TV-on-Demand-constanly-using-the-hd. However, I noticed that my good recording from above has an audio synch problem. The audio lags behind the video a fraction of a second. Enough to be just noticeable and irritating. My guess is that this is introduced via the digital audio enabled in this MMC. I initially noticed that Tv was giving an audio echo until I unplugged the line in that was required for audio in earlier MMCs. After unplugging, the echo went away. This leads me to believe that the lag is caused by the time needed to digitize the signal, which is not adjusted for the video frames. I tried to fix this with the Studio8 ATI version included with the 9800pro AIW. No dice - the software is crippled and I need to upgrade it to lock video and audio tracks. (No way in hell - that software is buggier than the MMC!) So, if you have a good video editing suite, you can probably fix this. I can't without buying something.

Ok, so my next plan was to uninstall everything, install WDMs from the 5.2 cats, display drivers and ccc from 6.3, and MMC 8.8. (I have previously tried to install MMC 8.8 with the 6.3 total package, but the record options were disabled. I assume that's a wdm incompatibility?) Unfortunately, although the display drivers were installed, the ccc won't open, and there is some problem with the wdm - hardware not found etc. So I will try again tonight with DriverCleaner, etc. Any suggestions? Those multi OS installs sound intriguing, but should we really need more than one install to get things to work correctly? I suppose so.

A good analogy for this situation is that I brought the car in for an engine tuneup, and got it back without wheels. Great. Thanks guys. (However, in ATI's defense, I will say that the video quality of the 9.03 seems a bit better than the 8.8. But no matter how good the engine is, the car won't drive w/o wheels.)

Hope everybody else is doing better. This is irritating because everything used to work well, but I made the mistake of upgrading my drivers. I suppose I could always go back to pre-ccc drivers and mmc 8.8. You know, so the hardware will achieve its primary function, which is, of course, to accept a tv signal. No 'wonder' HTPCs havent caught on.

lordof7 · Mar 30, 2006, 03:58 PM

Ok, I made it through most of the "Come on ATI, little more work on AIW please" thread. I have learned a bit about the problems with newer MMCs and WDMs, and I have a new strategy. Firstly, many of my problems are most likely User Error - so I will unistall all the drivers (I also did some stupid things, which I hope I can undo). I will then run DriverCleaner in SafeMode to be sure eveything is GONE! Then - WDM 5.2/6.3dd/AtiTools/DAO(fromMMC9.03)/decoder(fromMMC9.03)/MMC9.03.

Then I will change the WDM from NSP to SP/XP. From kbuzzard, I think this will disable digital audio and reenable analog line-in audio. I got this from the big 'Come on ATI..' AIW post, page 10, thread #138. kbuzzard, did I understand you correctly? You train of though moves faster than mine!

EDIT: Ok, apparently this NSP thing is well known in the forum if you know to look for it. Maybe someone in the detailed know can make an info post and get it stickied? That would be helpful for those of us who don't upgrade as much as we "should". (And now you know why we don't!)

Hopefully this will fix everything. I think I understand from kbuzzard that after installing SP2, only digital audio WDM's are installed. This may be, as I haven't upgraded my video drivers in a long time. I will let everyone know how it worked.

Again, the AIW hardware is pretty damn good, and the earlier software was also decent (ie, it worked for me.) All I want is a return to previous functionality, which I WILL have, one way or another. (I have a very old ghost clone I can use if necessary.) But the newer software introduces some pretty serious bugs that really ought to be addressed (directed to any ATI software guys reading this.)

Additionally, I said earlier that video quality was better in 9.03 than I remember, but is this actually the MMC or the WDM? Now I think maybe WDM...

Finally, if I've said something wrong, or you see a strategic error, let me know so I can correct it! I am hoping others will be able to benefit from my trials here.

Judas · Mar 30, 2006, 04:17 PM

i wish you great luck!

(i'm still not having any here unfortuneatly)

H3X4D3C1M4L · Mar 30, 2006, 10:52 PM

I tried my TV with 6.2/9.13 and I didn't get that message (but then again my TV crashed 6x)

lordof7 · Mar 31, 2006, 02:46 PM

Well, here's an update. Cleared off everything using DriverCleaner in safe mode, and attempted to install the 4.12 WDMs, 6.3dd, 6.3ccc. Although the display drivers took, the Wdm's didn't install right. I kept getting "New hardware found" windows. If I use the hardware wizard to search for drivers, I can find the Rage drivers I want, but the problem is, I can only pick one to install, and I'm pretty sure I need them all for correct capture functionality. Also, ccc will not start.

Ok, wipe everything again, install 6.3 package just to see if it works. It works. Install 9.02 MMC. It works. No protected message, and although there is an audio delay, it is less noticeable than before (with 9.03). All is good, except for the fact that after trying to end a recording, MMC crashes and the file is not saved. So I've got wheels back, but I lost the transmission.

Out of curiosity, I try to get the SP drivers using Hardware manager. Under the game,sound,controllers folder, I only have one ATI entry which is something like "T200 AVstream universal driver". I can replace this with any one of the many components of the older WDMs. I tried Rage Theater video. Although this seems to work, the TV tuner doesn't work (of course, cause that part of the WDM is not linked to the hardware.)

I looked a bit at the temp folder for the 6.3 WDMs and found THREE folders: WDM_NSP,WDM_ SP, and AVS_T200. I think the last one is the installed one. I cannot figure out how to install the WDM_SP drivers. Anyone have any ideas? (If I try to uninstall the universal ones and install the 4.12 wdms by clicking the .exe, the universal one reinstalls itself on reboot.) I also can't figure out why WDM installation doesn't "take" if I try and do it separately with 6.3 cats. I wonder if its a new "feature" of the 6.3s.

H3X4D3C1M4L · Mar 31, 2006, 10:49 PM

I don't think you want the AVS_T200 ones, I don't know what those are for.

What you want are the SP's and they should have an INF file that installs all the proper drivers to the proper devices, I remember it having an INF File last time I tried that trick

kbuzzard · Apr 1, 2006, 05:00 AM

To install the WDM_XP or WDM_SP drivers. SP2 specific, follow steps 1 by 1, it is EASY, take your time !!!!!!!

Control Panel > System > Hardware > Device Manager > Look down the list to "Sound, video and game controllers" , click the + sign to open menu. Right Click on "ATI WDM Rage Theater Video nsp" and click on Update Driver.

Next window, Click, "No, not this time" ONLY !!!! Click NEXT
Next window, Click "Install from a List or specific location (Advanced)" ONLY Click NEXT
Next window, Click " Don't search. I will choose the driver to install" ONLY, Click NEXT MOST IMPORTANT

NOW LOOK FOR THE LITTLE BOX THAT SAYS >>>" Show compatible hardware" it is checked by default, UN CHECK IT.
As soon as you uncheck, you will now have an array of choices and I suggest to use "ATI WDM Rage Theater Video" AND you can also click " Have Disk" in the rectangle box, and direct to your ATI CD and look for Install folder (AIW 9600 pro CD for example) WDM folder. You can have WDM_ 9x,2K,XP,SP,NSP, Use WDM_XP, or SP.

P.S. IGNORE WINDOWS "THINKING ITS WRONG, IT HAS NO CLUE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DO WDM driver only as above
If your choice gives issues, REDO sequence and go from WDM_XP, WDM_SP etc. I tried a pictorial but this forum won't cut & paste pictures.
You can swap out over and over.

H3X4D3C1M4L · Apr 1, 2006, 05:05 AM

Side note: ZeroPoint drivers have separate WDM folders in the install directory and I installed SP's from there and it worked

kbuzzard · Apr 1, 2006, 05:17 AM

Very interesting, I gotta ck that out.

swimtech · Apr 1, 2006, 11:45 PM

Stuck, as an adjunct to assist with WDM issue and latest MMC/Driverset issues with AIW. Thanks all!

lordof7 · Apr 3, 2006, 03:14 PM

Ok, I have some updates - not really all good news. 1st off, to replay to kbuzzard: I was trying to do exactly what you described. Unfortunately, my problem was in the way the 6.3 handled the WDM install. Normally, under the "Sound, Video, and Game Controllers" folder in the Hardware Manager, there are several entries for the Rage Theater chip, including "ATI WDM Rage Theater Video", "ATI WDM Rage Theater Audio", something about TV tuner, something about crossbar, etc. After installing the catalyst 6.3 package, there is only one entry, labeled something like "T200 AVStream Universal Drivers" (I can't exactly remember.) While I can replace that with the "ATI WDM Rage Theater Video SP" driver, that only adds the video driver, not the audio, tv tuner, etc. So, while video may work, tv capture does not. Is this new to the 6.3 cats? Installing any older WDMs would result in "Hardware not detected" messages, and failure of the 6.3 ccc to function.

The good news is that I was able to restore functionality to my card by installing older drivers. Here's the sequence:

1. Uninstall everything ATI related using Add/Remove programs.
2. Reboot to safemode, use drivercleaner to remove everything ATI related. Reboot.
3. Install cat5.2 WDMs, cat5.2 display driver, cat5.2 control panel. Reboot.
4. Install mmc9.02 DAO, mmc9.02 decoder, mmc9.02 MMC. Reboot.
5. Test - looks good!

I have no protected content messages, analog audio-in is restored (so no synch inssues.) Scheduler failed to record something, but I think it was due to the Daylight savings time change. I had set to record at 12:30AM, which may have been skipped. Further testing during the day was fine - everything recorded as it should.

So, bascically the 5.2cats with the 9.02 MMC works for me. I may try going back to the 6.2s to see if I can downgrade just the ATI WDM Rage Theater Video Driver as kbuzzard suggests.

To summarize - I cannot follow kbuzzard's instructions with the 6.3 cats because all the usual Rage Theater drivers, including "ATI WDM Rage Theater Video nsp" are not present. Instead there is only one driver, which is called something like "NT200 AVStream Universal Driver". Have a look at your entry with cats 6.3. This may be a result of installing the package instead of installing drivers one at a time. But it may not be possible to manually restore the analog input WDMs in cats6.3!

H3X4D3C1M4L · Apr 3, 2006, 03:20 PM

That makes 0 sense....the SPs should work with ATI's own AiWs

ROBSCIX · Apr 3, 2006, 05:49 PM

Yeah it's been change in the newer drivers, it's a unified driver. I performed this "fix" last night and it went off without a hitch but I use DZP drivers. So now I have analog audio again. This could be a issue when I go back to KX though because KX always had a issue with this scheme..well only with TV capture. it would not reconize the card. TV would play fine but no audio in capture. but when the audio was moved to digital it sees the card..have to do some tests..

lordof7 · Apr 3, 2006, 07:38 PM

There is a thread on this over at Rage3d. Although they didn't seem to test a lot, in my hands I cannot install older WDMs with the 6.3cats. Perhaps there is a way, but it hasn't been figured out yet. Also, it seems this unified driver is new to the 6.3's. so the 6.2's should be ok to install older WDMs with. It was suggested that perhaps newer MMC's could allow changing between digitial and analog signal, but I think that remains to be seen.

H3X4D3C1M4L · Apr 3, 2006, 07:59 PM

Oh god I hope this doesn't herald another shift to worse TV experiences

Judas · Apr 4, 2006, 02:02 AM

i tried to force the Universal driver... didn't work.... on my x1900xtx vivo...

ROBSCIX · Apr 4, 2006, 05:29 PM

@Judas, SO you have never had your AIW card working? even with supplied drivers? YOu can't even watch TV? Have you tried modded drivers? Where exactly do you think your hitting the wall? Could it be because you have a dual setup? that's what your specs say..

Judas · Apr 4, 2006, 05:55 PM

Only my 9000 pro AIW worked... from there up... it's never worked properly....

I've tried every combination of drivers available.... supplied or not (actually my 9600xt AIW CD came with somewhat broken drivers)

lordof7 · Apr 4, 2006, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordof7

Scheduler failed to record something, but I think it was due to the Daylight savings time change.

Scheduler seems to be fine - I tested again and no trouble, so it was a Daylight Savings Time change thing.

Judas, according to that post over on Rage3D, that the x1800+ cards always used the AVStream drivers? Maybe they only work for the AIW, and the VIVO cards require the third party manufacturer drivers?

Quote:

Originally Posted by grog (from Rage3d)

I am planing to update the graphedit shortly but the thing is not all the ATI graphics cards have the same connection methods.

If you look at the graphedit sticky you will find the AVStream method has been used with the 550 drivers since their release.

The All-In-Wonder X1800 also uses the AVStream driver model and has done so since it's release as well.

With the AVStream model you should be able to finally use "Windows Movie Maker" and "Windows Media Encoder". Just select the AVStream device for the audio connection.

If the older cards are using the AVStream I see this as a good thing overall.
With S-Video or Composite you can from MMC 9.13 select the properties on the connection (Channel-List/Connectors - Mouse right-click) and disable timeshift.

Judas · Apr 4, 2006, 09:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordof7

Judas, according to that post over on Rage3D, that the x1800+ cards always used the AVStream drivers? Maybe they only work for the AIW, and the VIVO cards require the third party manufacturer drivers?

It's a built By ATI Radeon x1900XTX..... there is no 3rd party?

And no, Vivo doesn't always use the same setup as the AIW.... they are generally always different chips/drivers used.

lordof7 · Apr 5, 2006, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Judas

It's a built By ATI Radeon x1900XTX..... there is no 3rd party?

D'oh! I was afraid you were going to say that. I'm afraid i've got nothin'.

H3X4D3C1M4L · Apr 5, 2006, 08:37 PM

Yeah funny ATI's own drivers don't work on ATI's own cards.

I hope that they don't monkey with the SP drivers

ROBSCIX · Apr 8, 2006, 12:04 AM

Yeah but H3x, they did mokey with the SP driver becuase on the newer driver sets it is ONE unified driver. not the one we are used to seeing the RAGE theater Audio, Rage MVD codec..etc..etc. NOw it is like the AT100 unified Stream driver or something similar. So you have to go to older version to be able to use this SP fix. What might be possible to do, is ask the guys that mod the drivers for DHZeropoint, to include a selection option so you can choose which driver you would like to install. WHat do you think that's possible isn't it? THen we can start to have a choice about what gets done behind the scenes with our cards. DO you guys think such a addition to a modded driver would be possible? WHat I don't understand is why are both drivers included? the SP and the NSP I mean, I sthis for supported sound card that use digital and unsupported soundcards that would use the line_in? does that make sense?

H3X4D3C1M4L · Apr 8, 2006, 02:07 AM

It is indeed possible to make a selection. As to the whole analog/digital thing its a case of 6 of one/half a dozen of the other. They're both included for whatever reason ATI put them in.

Synetech · Apr 16, 2006, 06:31 PM

The Broadcast flag?

Mar 29, 2006, 01:48 PM	#3
kbuzzard DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Buford, Georgia Posts: 83 Rep Power: 0	Protected TV, IT WILL GET WORSE !!! I haven't posted in some time but if you will check my previous posts , I mentioned things up the road. Thanks to "Old Buzzards" super software tip, I am inspired as re-pay of sorts to pass up some tips for you AIW folks. 1) NetFramework is NEEDED for CCC, Nero,CloneCD,CloneDVD etc,etc,etc. NetFramework IS NOT YOUR FRIEND. It adds start-up password om XP, memory hog, and frankly it is an OVER-Eager digital copy flag. 2) Congress has been on CSpan trying to protect US from RIAA (record people - YEA, remember the old LP's?), NAB (remember casettes and Reel to Reels, OH YEA,The F.C.C. Actually Congress and FCC are more on OUR side in this as is Consumer Electronics - ATI,NVidia and OH Yea -IPOD <<<< All these people are trying to make Digital recording a PAY TO DO Buisness but can't get in sync to do fairly - check me out on this this. 3) ATI has called me twice and I DID not wimp out on this BUT Mr X says that marketing DOES NOT WANT THIS INFO OUT, WHY, read above. I FIRMLY beleive they do not want to tread there, Thay are Canadian based !!!!. 4) My father was an electronics nut, TV serviceman and I grew up absorbing this and followed FCC since the late 50's - YEA< I'm an old fart too. Words of advice and I AM NO supreme voice, just an end user like YOU. NOW, IF you doubt all this , check out for YOURSELF. I strongly recomend you do a GOOGLE search on 2 softwares. 1) CasperXP, or your flavor, You need to "Clone" you HDD or your OS. I NOW can tell you SP2 IS fixable - as far as MCE -------- sorry, I'd format etc but you have special hardware most likely and probably not reading this anyway 2) Hyper Os 2005 if you run W2K or XP SP 1 or 2. THIS IS AWESOME STUFF. On 1 HDD you can "EASILY" run 2-22 copies of XP and Clone,Delete,Install "On the Fly". OR THE CATS FANNY IS......... LIFE and LIVING WITH AN AIW CARD, You put the basic OS, I.E. SP2 on "C" and THEN, Clone to "D" and can Clone to E,F,G,H,I etc,etc and play with DRIVERS until you get it right, screw-up, delete,clone, do it again SAM. GET YOUR AIW CORRECT, leave it, back it up for the day you need it. NOW put games etc on another partition. IMPORTANT WITH EXCEPTION of VIDEO DRIVERS ONLY,You NEED to STOP using WDM,MMC Drivers newer than MMC 9.03 OR YOU WILL NOT be happy. Sorry for lengthy messages but this is IMPORTANT. I am running SP2 with up to MARCH updates, CAT 6.3 (newest) Video drivers, WDM_XP from my ATI CD that is CAT 2.5!!!!!!!!, Current DVD soft and MMC 9.03 and working GREAT.Your AIW MMC etc does NOT require NetFramework etc to function, use THAT "SPYWARE" on your other system drives with games etc. Oh yea, go here and read daily about the way thing are degrading, http://www.warp2search.net/. NO, I have "0" to do with it..... Last edited by kbuzzard; Mar 30, 2006 at 12:18 AM.

Mar 30, 2006, 02:54 AM	#5
OldBuzzard DH's oldest Geek Join Date: May 2003 Location: Oberlin, OH Posts: 2,781 Rep Power: 142 System Specs	Just to add a little more info on HyperOS.... HOS 2005 has been discontinued. I'm a beta tester for them and they just released a version called HyoerOS 64 Geek and HyoerOS 64 Super Geek which are replacing HOS 2005. These versions allow you to use 11/22 versions of Win 2000, XP, or XP x64. SO, if you want to play with x64, you can do it without having to abandon your original XP. More info here: http://www.hyperossystems.co.uk/ __________________ When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

Mar 30, 2006, 02:23 PM	Thread Starter #6
lordof7 DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 8 Rep Power: 0	Well, I've been doing some testing and I have more info about my problem. Some good news, some bad news. Good news: Even though the little window pops up saying "Broadcast is protected, stopping recording now." It will NOT stop if you don't click "OK". (Many of you probably know this already.) However, the program will not close when finished recording, if you set it to (although the recording itself will start and stop at the specified time.) This is fine unless you want to record more than one thing. I have found that a scheduled shutdown will close the program gracefully, and your recording is saved where it should be. Therefore, killing the MMC with taskkill, or scheduling a reboot between your programs should allow you to record shows as normal. All fixed right? Heh. Now for the Bad news... I am now using MMC 9.03, which doesn't have TV-on-Demand-constanly-using-the-hd. However, I noticed that my good recording from above has an audio synch problem. The audio lags behind the video a fraction of a second. Enough to be just noticeable and irritating. My guess is that this is introduced via the digital audio enabled in this MMC. I initially noticed that Tv was giving an audio echo until I unplugged the line in that was required for audio in earlier MMCs. After unplugging, the echo went away. This leads me to believe that the lag is caused by the time needed to digitize the signal, which is not adjusted for the video frames. I tried to fix this with the Studio8 ATI version included with the 9800pro AIW. No dice - the software is crippled and I need to upgrade it to lock video and audio tracks. (No way in hell - that software is buggier than the MMC!) So, if you have a good video editing suite, you can probably fix this. I can't without buying something. Ok, so my next plan was to uninstall everything, install WDMs from the 5.2 cats, display drivers and ccc from 6.3, and MMC 8.8. (I have previously tried to install MMC 8.8 with the 6.3 total package, but the record options were disabled. I assume that's a wdm incompatibility?) Unfortunately, although the display drivers were installed, the ccc won't open, and there is some problem with the wdm - hardware not found etc. So I will try again tonight with DriverCleaner, etc. Any suggestions? Those multi OS installs sound intriguing, but should we really need more than one install to get things to work correctly? I suppose so. A good analogy for this situation is that I brought the car in for an engine tuneup, and got it back without wheels. Great. Thanks guys. (However, in ATI's defense, I will say that the video quality of the 9.03 seems a bit better than the 8.8. But no matter how good the engine is, the car won't drive w/o wheels.) Hope everybody else is doing better. This is irritating because everything used to work well, but I made the mistake of upgrading my drivers. I suppose I could always go back to pre-ccc drivers and mmc 8.8. You know, so the hardware will achieve its primary function, which is, of course, to accept a tv signal. No 'wonder' HTPCs havent caught on. __________________ P4c 2.8 w/ Zalman CNPS7000A AlCu Abit IC7 2x512 Geil Golden Dragon AIW 9800 pro Enermax EG465AX-VE (W)FCA PSU WinXP Pro SP2 / Cats ??? MMC ???

Mar 30, 2006, 03:58 PM	Thread Starter #7
lordof7 DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 8 Rep Power: 0	Ok, I made it through most of the "Come on ATI, little more work on AIW please" thread. I have learned a bit about the problems with newer MMCs and WDMs, and I have a new strategy. Firstly, many of my problems are most likely User Error - so I will unistall all the drivers (I also did some stupid things, which I hope I can undo). I will then run DriverCleaner in SafeMode to be sure eveything is GONE! Then - WDM 5.2/6.3dd/AtiTools/DAO(fromMMC9.03)/decoder(fromMMC9.03)/MMC9.03. Then I will change the WDM from NSP to SP/XP. From kbuzzard, I think this will disable digital audio and reenable analog line-in audio. I got this from the big 'Come on ATI..' AIW post, page 10, thread #138. kbuzzard, did I understand you correctly? You train of though moves faster than mine! EDIT: Ok, apparently this NSP thing is well known in the forum if you know to look for it. Maybe someone in the detailed know can make an info post and get it stickied? That would be helpful for those of us who don't upgrade as much as we "should". (And now you know why we don't!) Hopefully this will fix everything. I think I understand from kbuzzard that after installing SP2, only digital audio WDM's are installed. This may be, as I haven't upgraded my video drivers in a long time. I will let everyone know how it worked. Again, the AIW hardware is pretty damn good, and the earlier software was also decent (ie, it worked for me.) All I want is a return to previous functionality, which I WILL have, one way or another. (I have a very old ghost clone I can use if necessary.) But the newer software introduces some pretty serious bugs that really ought to be addressed (directed to any ATI software guys reading this.) Additionally, I said earlier that video quality was better in 9.03 than I remember, but is this actually the MMC or the WDM? Now I think maybe WDM... Finally, if I've said something wrong, or you see a strategic error, let me know so I can correct it! I am hoping others will be able to benefit from my trials here. __________________ P4c 2.8 w/ Zalman CNPS7000A AlCu Abit IC7 2x512 Geil Golden Dragon AIW 9800 pro Enermax EG465AX-VE (W)FCA PSU WinXP Pro SP2 / Cats ??? MMC ??? Last edited by lordof7; Mar 30, 2006 at 04:20 PM.

Mar 31, 2006, 02:46 PM	Thread Starter #10
lordof7 DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 8 Rep Power: 0	Well, here's an update. Cleared off everything using DriverCleaner in safe mode, and attempted to install the 4.12 WDMs, 6.3dd, 6.3ccc. Although the display drivers took, the Wdm's didn't install right. I kept getting "New hardware found" windows. If I use the hardware wizard to search for drivers, I can find the Rage drivers I want, but the problem is, I can only pick one to install, and I'm pretty sure I need them all for correct capture functionality. Also, ccc will not start. Ok, wipe everything again, install 6.3 package just to see if it works. It works. Install 9.02 MMC. It works. No protected message, and although there is an audio delay, it is less noticeable than before (with 9.03). All is good, except for the fact that after trying to end a recording, MMC crashes and the file is not saved. So I've got wheels back, but I lost the transmission. Out of curiosity, I try to get the SP drivers using Hardware manager. Under the game,sound,controllers folder, I only have one ATI entry which is something like "T200 AVstream universal driver". I can replace this with any one of the many components of the older WDMs. I tried Rage Theater video. Although this seems to work, the TV tuner doesn't work (of course, cause that part of the WDM is not linked to the hardware.) I looked a bit at the temp folder for the 6.3 WDMs and found THREE folders: WDM_NSP,WDM_ SP, and AVS_T200. I think the last one is the installed one. I cannot figure out how to install the WDM_SP drivers. Anyone have any ideas? (If I try to uninstall the universal ones and install the 4.12 wdms by clicking the .exe, the universal one reinstalls itself on reboot.) I also can't figure out why WDM installation doesn't "take" if I try and do it separately with 6.3 cats. I wonder if its a new "feature" of the 6.3s. __________________ P4c 2.8 w/ Zalman CNPS7000A AlCu Abit IC7 2x512 Geil Golden Dragon AIW 9800 pro Enermax EG465AX-VE (W)FCA PSU WinXP Pro SP2 / Cats ??? MMC ???

Mar 27, 2006, 07:36 PM	#1
lordof7 DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 8 Rep Power: 0	Suddenly, Tv is protected??? - More AIW help. So I recently updated my drivers (to 6.3) and MMC(to 9.13) on my AIW 9800 pro. I was having problems with the 9.13 MMC, so I uninstalled it and reinstalled 9.03. Everything was then working well. Until I tried to record some TV. I kept getting a message: "Broadcast protected, stopping recording". I am aware this usually is a macrovision detection thing but: 1. This was a cable TV signal. No macrovision (well, at least i THINK.) 2. Before the upgrade, I never saw this message. I had upgraded from older drivers (4.x?) and an older MMC (Either 8.8 or 9.03 - can't remember.) So i'm pretty sure its a software problem. I have heard that starting with 5.3 that macrovision detection was MUCH more sensitive. Anyone else have this problem? How did you fix it? I may try and use older WDM with the newer cats, but I don't know if that will work. Additionally, I have noticed that the program will continue to record as long as I don't click 'ok' on the warning box. Will this box screw up scheduled recording? Thanks. __________________ P4c 2.8 w/ Zalman CNPS7000A AlCu Abit IC7 2x512 Geil Golden Dragon AIW 9800 pro Enermax EG465AX-VE (W)FCA PSU WinXP Pro SP2 / Cats ??? MMC ??? Last edited by lordof7; Mar 27, 2006 at 07:39 PM. Reason: Typos

Mar 27, 2006, 09:20 PM	#2
H3X4D3C1M4L DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6,794 Rep Power: 0	I don't like the sound of this.... at all... Try downgrading to Catalyst 5.13 and see if the problem remains.... that's....scary...

Mar 29, 2006, 05:28 PM	#4
ROBSCIX DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,732 Rep Power: 0	NO I don't like the sound of that either, but then again I didn't like the new MMC anyway. Just downgrade and everything should be alright. This is getting to a problem.

Mar 30, 2006, 10:52 PM	#9
H3X4D3C1M4L DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6,794 Rep Power: 0	I tried my TV with 6.2/9.13 and I didn't get that message (but then again my TV crashed 6x)

Mar 31, 2006, 10:49 PM	#11
H3X4D3C1M4L DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6,794 Rep Power: 0	I don't think you want the AVS_T200 ones, I don't know what those are for. What you want are the SP's and they should have an INF file that installs all the proper drivers to the proper devices, I remember it having an INF File last time I tried that trick

Apr 1, 2006, 05:00 AM	#12
kbuzzard DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Buford, Georgia Posts: 83 Rep Power: 0	lordof7, HERE YA GO, BEST OF LUCK !!!!!!!! To install the WDM_XP or WDM_SP drivers. SP2 specific, follow steps 1 by 1, it is EASY, take your time !!!!!!! Control Panel > System > Hardware > Device Manager > Look down the list to "Sound, video and game controllers" , click the + sign to open menu. Right Click on "ATI WDM Rage Theater Video nsp" and click on Update Driver. Next window, Click, "No, not this time" ONLY !!!! Click NEXT Next window, Click "Install from a List or specific location (Advanced)" ONLY Click NEXT Next window, Click " Don't search. I will choose the driver to install" ONLY, Click NEXT MOST IMPORTANT NOW LOOK FOR THE LITTLE BOX THAT SAYS >>>" Show compatible hardware" it is checked by default, UN CHECK IT. As soon as you uncheck, you will now have an array of choices and I suggest to use "ATI WDM Rage Theater Video" AND you can also click " Have Disk" in the rectangle box, and direct to your ATI CD and look for Install folder (AIW 9600 pro CD for example) WDM folder. You can have WDM_ 9x,2K,XP,SP,NSP, Use WDM_XP, or SP. P.S. IGNORE WINDOWS "THINKING ITS WRONG, IT HAS NO CLUE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DO WDM driver only as above If your choice gives issues, REDO sequence and go from WDM_XP, WDM_SP etc. I tried a pictorial but this forum won't cut & paste pictures. You can swap out over and over. Last edited by kbuzzard; Apr 1, 2006 at 05:23 AM.

Apr 1, 2006, 05:05 AM	#13
H3X4D3C1M4L DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6,794 Rep Power: 0	Side note: ZeroPoint drivers have separate WDM folders in the install directory and I installed SP's from there and it worked

Apr 1, 2006, 05:17 AM	#14
kbuzzard DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Buford, Georgia Posts: 83 Rep Power: 0	Very interesting, I gotta ck that out.

Apr 1, 2006, 11:45 PM	#15
swimtech HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: North Carolina Posts: 4,040 Rep Power: 124 System Specs	Stuck, as an adjunct to assist with WDM issue and latest MMC/Driverset issues with AIW. Thanks all! __________________ It's not so much getting your way that matters or not - what matters is how you go about getting it.

Apr 3, 2006, 03:14 PM	Thread Starter #16
lordof7 DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 8 Rep Power: 0	Ok, I have some updates - not really all good news. 1st off, to replay to kbuzzard: I was trying to do exactly what you described. Unfortunately, my problem was in the way the 6.3 handled the WDM install. Normally, under the "Sound, Video, and Game Controllers" folder in the Hardware Manager, there are several entries for the Rage Theater chip, including "ATI WDM Rage Theater Video", "ATI WDM Rage Theater Audio", something about TV tuner, something about crossbar, etc. After installing the catalyst 6.3 package, there is only one entry, labeled something like "T200 AVStream Universal Drivers" (I can't exactly remember.) While I can replace that with the "ATI WDM Rage Theater Video SP" driver, that only adds the video driver, not the audio, tv tuner, etc. So, while video may work, tv capture does not. Is this new to the 6.3 cats? Installing any older WDMs would result in "Hardware not detected" messages, and failure of the 6.3 ccc to function. The good news is that I was able to restore functionality to my card by installing older drivers. Here's the sequence: 1. Uninstall everything ATI related using Add/Remove programs. 2. Reboot to safemode, use drivercleaner to remove everything ATI related. Reboot. 3. Install cat5.2 WDMs, cat5.2 display driver, cat5.2 control panel. Reboot. 4. Install mmc9.02 DAO, mmc9.02 decoder, mmc9.02 MMC. Reboot. 5. Test - looks good! I have no protected content messages, analog audio-in is restored (so no synch inssues.) Scheduler failed to record something, but I think it was due to the Daylight savings time change. I had set to record at 12:30AM, which may have been skipped. Further testing during the day was fine - everything recorded as it should. So, bascically the 5.2cats with the 9.02 MMC works for me. I may try going back to the 6.2s to see if I can downgrade just the ATI WDM Rage Theater Video Driver as kbuzzard suggests. To summarize - I cannot follow kbuzzard's instructions with the 6.3 cats because all the usual Rage Theater drivers, including "ATI WDM Rage Theater Video nsp" are not present. Instead there is only one driver, which is called something like "NT200 AVStream Universal Driver". Have a look at your entry with cats 6.3. This may be a result of installing the package instead of installing drivers one at a time. But it may not be possible to manually restore the analog input WDMs in cats6.3! __________________ P4c 2.8 w/ Zalman CNPS7000A AlCu Abit IC7 2x512 Geil Golden Dragon AIW 9800 pro Enermax EG465AX-VE (W)FCA PSU WinXP Pro SP2 / Cats ??? MMC ???

Apr 3, 2006, 03:20 PM	#17
H3X4D3C1M4L DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6,794 Rep Power: 0	That makes 0 sense....the SPs should work with ATI's own AiWs

Apr 3, 2006, 05:49 PM	#18
ROBSCIX DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,732 Rep Power: 0	Yeah it's been change in the newer drivers, it's a unified driver. I performed this "fix" last night and it went off without a hitch but I use DZP drivers. So now I have analog audio again. This could be a issue when I go back to KX though because KX always had a issue with this scheme..well only with TV capture. it would not reconize the card. TV would play fine but no audio in capture. but when the audio was moved to digital it sees the card..have to do some tests..

Apr 3, 2006, 07:38 PM	Thread Starter #19
lordof7 DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 8 Rep Power: 0	There is a thread on this over at Rage3d. Although they didn't seem to test a lot, in my hands I cannot install older WDMs with the 6.3cats. Perhaps there is a way, but it hasn't been figured out yet. Also, it seems this unified driver is new to the 6.3's. so the 6.2's should be ok to install older WDMs with. It was suggested that perhaps newer MMC's could allow changing between digitial and analog signal, but I think that remains to be seen. __________________ P4c 2.8 w/ Zalman CNPS7000A AlCu Abit IC7 2x512 Geil Golden Dragon AIW 9800 pro Enermax EG465AX-VE (W)FCA PSU WinXP Pro SP2 / Cats ??? MMC ???

Apr 3, 2006, 07:59 PM	#20
H3X4D3C1M4L DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6,794 Rep Power: 0	Oh god I hope this doesn't herald another shift to worse TV experiences

Apr 4, 2006, 05:29 PM	#22
ROBSCIX DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,732 Rep Power: 0	@Judas, SO you have never had your AIW card working? even with supplied drivers? YOu can't even watch TV? Have you tried modded drivers? Where exactly do you think your hitting the wall? Could it be because you have a dual setup? that's what your specs say..

Apr 5, 2006, 08:37 PM	#27
H3X4D3C1M4L DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6,794 Rep Power: 0	Yeah funny ATI's own drivers don't work on ATI's own cards. I hope that they don't monkey with the SP drivers

Apr 8, 2006, 12:04 AM	#28
ROBSCIX DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,732 Rep Power: 0	Yeah but H3x, they did mokey with the SP driver becuase on the newer driver sets it is ONE unified driver. not the one we are used to seeing the RAGE theater Audio, Rage MVD codec..etc..etc. NOw it is like the AT100 unified Stream driver or something similar. So you have to go to older version to be able to use this SP fix. What might be possible to do, is ask the guys that mod the drivers for DHZeropoint, to include a selection option so you can choose which driver you would like to install. WHat do you think that's possible isn't it? THen we can start to have a choice about what gets done behind the scenes with our cards. DO you guys think such a addition to a modded driver would be possible? WHat I don't understand is why are both drivers included? the SP and the NSP I mean, I sthis for supported sound card that use digital and unsupported soundcards that would use the line_in? does that make sense?

Apr 8, 2006, 02:07 AM	#29
H3X4D3C1M4L DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 6,794 Rep Power: 0	It is indeed possible to make a selection. As to the whole analog/digital thing its a case of 6 of one/half a dozen of the other. They're both included for whatever reason ATI put them in.

Apr 16, 2006, 06:31 PM	#30
Synetech poison pizza Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Not LA or NYC :( Posts: 26 Rep Power: 0	The Broadcast flag? __________________ -- Synetech