Warning! You must have a 300 watt power supply to run a 9800

Mike Rubin

Most of you already know this, but I didn't, so here it is for newbies to the forum.

I bought a 9800 Pro 128mb and was getting performance worse than my old GeForce 4 Ti4200 low-end card. I posted a note on this board and one of the responders asked about my power supply.

Turns out I have a 250w power supply in a year-old Dell Dimension 8200. Dell does not sell replacement power supplies that are larger and I have not been able to find aftermarket power supplies that fit Dells. (I understand that Dell keeps its power supplies proprietary for some reason.)

I spoke to ATI Tech Support (terrible time trying to get support, by the way, but that is another thread, for another day). ATI confirmed that 300w is part of the minimum system spec, so my choices are to get rid of the card and downgrade to a 9600 or upgrade the power supply.

I make a point of calling this out here and now because it is very possible to purchase a card on the ATI site, let alone dealer sites, without anyone pointing out this system spec. If you want to find the specs, you have to get outside of the shopping card process that you initiate in response to the product illustration on the ATI home page. The ATI Tech Support guy admitted, after I cross-examined him, that they get many, many calls from frustrated buyers due to this disconnect.

I have been buying video cards since 1987 and never thought I'd have to think about this particular system requirement in buying an adaptor. Let my oversight be a word of warning to you.

MIG-31

personally i would choose a min of 400w myself.don't forget all the other add-ons you have.as there are quite a few around who use 2 hdd's,cd/dvd/cdrw drives often 2,several case fans,cathodes etc.

but its a decent bit of advice from you.

use this for estimating min psu

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The_Neon_Cowboy

it says 300W or greater needed.... right on the box and in the paper work and on the website and all over these forums

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Mike Rubin

I was an idiot for not seeing this in the box's tiny print. On the other hand, I also did not find it on ATI's website without drilling down, and I, like most purchasers, haven't spent a lot of time on this forum with the guys and gals who have been there and done that. The several reviews of this card that I read do not point out the minimum power supply requirement, either, although they often point out that you need to connect the card to power.

It's WAY too easy to buy these products without being aware of what certainly is an unusual system requirement for a video card. I work for a computer company, myself, and I guarantee you that, if we offered a product with an oddball system requirement, we'd point that out PROMINENTLY on the packaging and sales pitch webpage, rather than expect consumers to fend for themselves and then come back mad if they haven't run across the relevant info before buying. That ATI itself gets many calls a day on this point suggests to me that I am not the only person who hadn't gotten the bright idea to review his or her power supply size before buying this card. That ATI doesn't give a damn about it just suggests to me that it needs some serious customer care work.

As I said at the beginning, I posted here knowing that you smart folks here already knew this. In fact, I'd like to post someplace where newbies are more likely to read, if there is such a place. If you know of one, tell me where it is so that my message reaches a more appropriate audience. If I spare one other purchaser from eating an expensive card purchase, I don't feel bad about taking up the bandwidth.

craig588

well, the absoloute minimum ANY PC should be built with is a 350watt PSU, so it shouldn't be a problem for the majority of people. If it was like a 450watt PSU requirement, then it would need to be more obviously listed.

@/2ct!<

Same for me, wonder what would happen if I increased my Dell PSU..... Too bad its not technically mine and cant add the PSU, it works ok though.

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Necrosis

Huh...PC Power & Cooling does sell a 300 Watt for the Dells.

http://www.pcpowercooling.com/home.htm

Veridian3

Also something to point out, requiring a 300w PSU is not an odd requirement anymore. It was a recommendation for some TI4600's and is a requirement for anything R3xx (95/97/9800) or FX5700 and above(5800/5900/5950).

craig588

Not to be an ass, but I think I already pointed that out.

Veridian3

I was elaborating on your point as i felt it was required :P

Dyre Straits

Mike,

On the ATi WEBsite, under all the Products listings, there's a Specifications page. The very first topic on that page is "System Requirements". Right there is the recommendation of a 300W PSU or greater. In my shopping experience, I go through the specifications page before I ever get to a purchase page. But, I had to learn to do this in much the same way you just did.

I've read countless complaints from gamers who failed to read the system requirements for a game they purchased and found out their system was below or barely at the minimum requirements for the game and yet were complaining that the game wouldn't run/run well/ or some other such problem.

I would chalk this up to 'shopper education' if I were you. I think we've all been down this road with a lot more and various other purchases. I definitely wouldn't put the blame on ATi. They have posted the specs for each card.

Good luck to you and I hope you can resolve this soon.

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Mike Rubin

Dave, yes, you are correct that I should have done more research, although I felt I'd done plenty before I bought this card. I did mention in my post that you can find the system requirements if you drill at the ATI site, but you also can click on the product promotion, be taken right into the shopping cart, and check out without ever being warned that this unit does have a power supply requirement. Were I selling this product, I would point that out as part of the purchase requirement, especially during a promotion such as the one running at the ATI site right now. To fail to do that and then tell your customers to go pound sand, as ATI does, is crappy customer support and you guys all know that.

In any event: (1) I am buying an upgraded ATX power supply for the Dell as it couldn't hurt, (2) I learned that Dell rates its power supplies conservatively and that some of them rated at 250 for my model test as high as 340, (3) Dell has sold units preconfigured with the ATI Radeon 9700 and 9800 without using a bigger power supply, and (4) my problem probably has nothing to do with the power supply as, were it inadequate, the unit would not power at all, according to some. I just think this is a crappy match between a card that works better in other applications and the requirements of the game whose performance I had hoped to upgrade.

Today or tomorrow, I will do a clean reinstall of Windows on a reformatted drive, update Windows as needed, add the ATI or Omega drivers, install my backup program, install my F1 Championship from CD, and then add back my data for the game from my backup. At that point, I will have a virtually clean system, with almost nothing on it besides the game. if I continue to get stutter, I will chalk this up as a bad idea for my hardware and software combination, sell the ATI card, and purchase the best NVidia card I can find that does not have a power supply requirement. I will trade some FPS for the ability to play the game without freezing. Thank you all for pointing out what you have.

@/2ct!<

Also not sure if this applies, but most people said the dell is actually more like the 300W power supply and is intended to use its full 250 W, unlike most others that run at 70% load.

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Robert McClelland

I have only 160Watt power watt supply you have to becarefull to much power you can fry your mother board easy. mind has AGP and 3 pci slots and two mem slicks on the mother board it's very small if I put 400watts in my system I think it would fry it.

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"XTREME AUDIO IS CRAP!" "There no support for it. It's crapist card on face of the earth it should be throw into the sun"

http://valid.canardpc.com/show_oc.php?id=2242746

ViRuS2k

Robert McClelland if you put the highest spec PSU i think its 660W in your motherboard it would work and wouldnt FRY IT... motherboards all have voltage regulators that supply only what is needed to the motherboard and nothing more. just thought i would let you know

jackal2001

shuttle sff pcs don't even come close to 300w.

the newest sff only push out 250w. I only have a 200W in my SS51G system and my Hercules 9800 Pro works just fine.

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Abit AV8 inside a Thermaltake XaserIII Case
Athlon 64 3500+
2GB OCZ Dual Channel DDR400
2 73GB WD Raptors RAID0
ATI AIW x800xt AGP Card
Hercules Fortissimo III 7.1
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Shuttle SFF SS51G
P4 3.06
80GB WD 8MB Cache HDD
1.0GB Crucial DDR333
Santa Cruz Audio Card
Hercules 9800 Pro 128MB

mreman4k

Strange, I have a Dell 8200 oc'ed to 351/338 and it runs just fine more. Dell even at one point sold 8200/8250 (both have 250W psu) with 9800 Pros, so I think your problem may lay elsewhere.

Mike Rubin

See my post of the 6th, above, pointing out the same things. . I agree with you, in fact, about the problem lying elsewhere, and now think that the ATI service guys just used that power supply figure as an excuse for not helping me with my tech support request.

I did a clean reinstall of Windows, by the way, and, after installing it, updating it, installing the Omega drivers (next-to-last generation, as they were recommended), adding my backup, and reinstalling my F1 Challenge, I STILL had the stutter that was driving me bats, if not quite as bad of one.

Since I had that problem with a very minimally-configured system, I concluded that the Radeon just isn't a good fit with this game, so I took it back and downgraded to a midrange NVidia card last night. (The NVidia card requires only 250 watts.) Early returns are that it stutters, too, so I am at my wit's end with this attempted upgrade. Now, off to the NVidia forums to see about improving FPS and dealing with stutter.

Thanks to everyone for comments and suggestions.

Crash Override

I know this will get me in trouble again but I really dont like your tone.

ATi didnt use that as an excuse to get around your issue. The simple fact of tha matter is that Dell uses substandard power supplies in its computers. My dad has had to deal with Dells alot in his work at Boeing. Theyve replaced so many of them based on failed power supplies that its not even funny. ATi has those specs listed for a reason. Reason being that is the minimum that they recommend. If you cant follow that specification then dont expect more help from them until you do.

If you really do work for a computer company (I work for a universities IT department) then you should really know how much wattage each component of a PC uses and know that you were overtapping that power supply.

I can also see that you didnt work very hard at fixing your issue at all. I personally havent had any of the issues that you see plaguing most "experts" with ATi cards. Wonder if it has to do with the fact that I spend more time working on the problem and actually listening to others advice rather than just giving up.

I bet I could have helped you solve your issue with the card pretty fast.

Mike Rubin

I don't know why i am responding to you. It probably will just get me in trouble, too.

You are entitled to your opinion of me. i did not intend to offend, but I seem to have and, if what I said rubbed you the wrong way, think what you will, with my apologies.

I have no quarrel with the spec or the reason for it. If the card needs 300 or 3000 watts to work well, it needs whatever it needs. That only means that some can use it and some cannot. Otherwise, it is a neutral fact.

My quarrel, at the risk of being repetitive and tedious. is only with how ATI buries the power supply requirement when marketing its product. Some have said it isn't buried, but I still managed to miss it despite doing research before buying. (Yes, it is on the box, in the small print, and failing to see that IS my mistake, although some might be a bit more empathetiic to those who don't know what they don't know or who buy the product mail order where they have to rely on a web or catalogue description.) Maybe it is because neither ATI nor the product reviews go to any particular trouble to point out what, even these days, is an unusual video card spec that ATI gets so many calls from people with under-spec power supplies. Even the warning label on the internal bag only warns that a spare connector is needed, not that I need 300w.

On the other hand, as you suspect, maybe we're all just idiots for not figuring out we should drill down on web pages or do a better job of scrutinizing boxes more carefully. Who knows? I knew that, at this forum, most of you would know more than I do, which is why I came here to solicit your assistance, but, as I said in this thread, there are lots of novices or people who haven't purchased video cards in the era of power supply requirements. I gladly would have posted what I did on a board more geared to newbies than this one, if I had any idea what that board would be, to avoid looking foolish to the knowledgeable, believe me.

I am not bashing the card. It has lots of admirers, tests and reviews well, and looked good on my system. I am only saying that I concluded that there wasn't a good match between my system, this card, and my game of choice. If it works really well for you, then by all means don't let me rain on your parade. That was not my intent, nor would it make any sense for me to do so.

With respect to my allegedly giving up "too easily," FWIW, before reformatting, I spent a full week trying to get advice about the stuttering problem on this and the auto racing boards, which resulted in a number of constructive and appreciated suggestions that I spent hours trying during the week. Even so, and after spending a full day yesterday trying the last of the tweaks and taking my system back to Square One, I still could not get better performance with this card in this game than with my Ti4200. Candidly, I spent more time trying to solve this one upgrade problem than I have in all my upgrades combined in the years after spending an equivalent number of hours trying to resolve an interrupt conflict with a magnetic tape drive in the mid-nineties. Maybe i have just been lucky and have been spoiled by so many effortless upgrades, but I thought I'd made an appropriate effort to get an expensive product to work. I am sure you could have pointed me in a better direction, as you say, but, for whatever reason, I never got pointed there and concluded that I'd paid appropriate dues to get this card to perform better, especially with ATI Tech Support telling me to pound sand.

I am not in a position to dispute that Dell's power supplies are crappy if you say that they are, but note only that mine seems to be working and puts out adequate power in my relatively unstressed system to make the board display an image. During the week I spent on the boards trying to get help, I heard from several people that the size of the power supply really doesn't matter in this context; to the contrary, were the supply inadequate, the card would not display an image at all and the stuttering issue would be moot, because I wouldn't be playing the game at all. Or so people said. If that is incorrect, it would be useful to know.

Finally, although I work at a computer company and know enough about the technology to know that one should not overload a power supply, I don't work with the hardware directly and I have no idea about the current draw of any one component. Rather, my job consists, among other things, of vetting our advertising and promotional copy to try to save us from being sued in unfair and deceptive practices lawsuits. I can't always convince my colleagues to disclose what they think is obvious but is not, and, alas, too often we've been sued when they've ignored my advice. I know that marketing people don't like "unfriendly" messages like warnings and "negative vibes" in print larger than mouse droppings, so I know that ATI has to walk a fine line between full disclosure and making people think more carefully about whether they should make a purchase. I think they fell off the track on the wrong side of the line and you don't. We disagree. We both have argued our positions. The board has served its purpose.

If I didn't say it before, thanks to everyone here and at the other forums who offered assistance. I do appreciate it and am glad to have gotten so many responses.

The_Neon_Cowboy

dells are under powerd anyways even alot of the new ones are sporting 225w or 250w power supplies!!! many people dont know thie head from a hole ing the ground thats why alot places sell junk most people dont know better or he differance....


also of note a 300 watt powersupply does not nessacrly put out 300 W
300W ratesiong only mans it will handle a peak for a short time of 300W
many can only have say 250W or less as a constant draw....


so a 250 might only hand 200W! i've gota 1995 pc that came with a 145w powersupply.. for a whapong 60mhz cpu, cdrom, 1 gb hdd, 8mb ram, 512k video.....

its not unreasonalbe for a system to need a powersuppy rated at 300w or more

considering a good video card draws what about 75W by it self then you got alot other stuff 2

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Crash Override

The whole point of my post was that if you cant research a product you are buying then theres not really a point in buying it

also its not an odd thing

nVidia cards require higher end PSUs as well if you read their specs

I just went to ATi's site and selected the products link up top and clicked on Gamer

on that page I clicked on Radeon 9800 and selected specifications on the left

The First thing I see written up to is this

System Requirements
RADEON™ 9800 Series of products requires connection to your PC's internal power supply for operation. Consult your system builder or OEM to ensure your system has an adequate power supply. Otherwise, ATI recommends a 300-Watt power supply or greater to ensure normal system operation where a number of other internal devices are installed.

So 3 clicks and 3 pages deep I found that right where it should be.

Thats basic internet right there. Thats about as elementary as it gets.

Im not trying to be a hardass but Im saying that its labeled there as well as on the box. Most people buy OEM from vendors or retail parts out of the store. How is it so hard to see in those instances? Also if you work for a computer company why not have them build a machine for you rather than using a Dell?

ChrisW

Dell power supplies are of the highest quality. Dell is well known for seriously under rating their power supplies because they want their customers to have extremely stable computers. I would take a 250W Dell power supply any day over most 300-350W power supplies if it would only work on my motherboard. The 300 watts is only a recommendation as it may be needed if you have lots of hard drives connected to your computer. Many people are using that same card on Dells with less than 250W power supplies.

clicker666

Nine out of ten times when I have a video game that suffers stutter I can track it down to ONE thing. The sound card. I have a Creative SB Live 5.1 and without failure it is the primary cause of any stutter on my machine. Simple cure for me that has smoothed out most games is to turn off mapping through subsystem or whatever that setting is. I still get EAX2 and all that good stuff, it just runs smoother. Anyhow that's my two cents. I would go along the lines that if it doesn't have enough power it likely won't even boot. If you can, try turning off sound in your game temporarily and see if it improves.

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Mike Rubin

This is a very promising bit of information for me. Thank you for passing it along.

I, in fact, have a SoundBlaster 16, so there may be similar issues with it. Where exactly do I find the option to turn off the "mapping through subsystem" or equivalent setting?

clicker666

Go into device manager, sound section. Under there look for the Sound blaster and bring up the properties. Under there is another section called properties. Should have Audio Devices, Midi Devices, and Mixer Devices sections. Select Audio devices, look for the device and bring up the properties. You will see a spot that says Do not map through this device. Select that and OK your way back to the desktop. Reboot and try your game. As I said, all else failing - pop the sound card out and try your game. Granted if it's your sound card you've got a new gremlin to deal with, but sound cards are pretty cheap now.

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Crash Override

Of the highest quality?

I think not. Do remember that I already stated that I work in a universities IT department. Dell was the supprlier for our school until I got in there and started doing custom built PC's for the uni.

We had way way too many PSU burnouts. Same with Boeing. The only reason they keep their Dell contract is the fast turn around time for parts to repair machines that have had issues.

Now if they started putting PC Power and Cooling 300W PSUs in the systems then I might have a lil less to complain about. However, I can guarantee you that the PSU is the first place OEMs look to cut prices if at all possible.

The_Neon_Cowboy

apernty you diont know how oems work, the parts get bid out to the lowest bidder, the lowest ensureing the crapest parts and the cheapest design, even thier cards like sounblasters are made with substanadrd chips! the main chip isnt even made by creative!!!! when it cobnes to dells they want every cent the can get from you an pay as little for thier hardware. thier quilty blows! as for thier their support as many more people, then i ever herd from , about compaq, hp, sony, emachines etc... dell has the worst support dept. Who case what some award co. think it the customers opions that count! yes the award co. get them sales but many wonder how thier support could be number 1, when thier the wose and lest knowlegadeable they see so far...

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ChrisW

If that were true, they would sell nothing but AMD processors and VIA based motherboards instead of their (relatively) expensive Intel processors and Intel motherboards. And Dell has been rated number one for years in customer support, so I don't know where you got that. As with all power supplies, there are going to be a certain number of duds. I have personally never had a single problem with a Dell power supply.

craig588

They can get intel mobos and procs REALLY cheap when they buy in bulk. Much cheaper than AMD procs/mobos could ever get to.