Kombatant

I am interested in seeing your reaction to ATI's latest launch. What do you think of the new cards? Should ATI have done something differently?

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Sandok

I have decided to stop posting in anything ATI related... Apparently I'm the anti-neon according to some of the higher classed people

Zardon

I think you mean you are the "neon of nvidia"

Post your feelings, i mean I doubt there is anyone who has missed them but its a forum, opinions matter!

Kombatant

Exactly All voices should be heard, that's what "discussion" is all about after all!

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Dazog

I will pipe in,

Nvidia has won this round

ATi has been late with Crossfire and with there x1000 series cards.

I wanted to run out and buy one the day they were released.

NOT A CHANCE

Let's hope ATi doesn't mess it up again with the R580 or whatever the refresh will be next year.

Nvidia has raised the bar, I hope Ati doesn't get crushed trying to jump over it.

Sandok

Okay here goes... First, I love ATI... Alot! Now that that's out of the way, here are my opinions.

I love what they've been able to do with the current tech. 16 pipes = 24 pipes. I mean, the whole new processing engine and pipe method is great but at what cost?

Extreme clocks to be competitve. Well that's not good news cuz it's very hot (meaning it's dual slot cooled), it's very long and it's a killer for the PSU. And I can't imagine what ATI will be able to do for it's future line up. They won't be making XT PE versions cuz there doesn't seem to be much left to clock. The 7800 series is low clocked, is single slot, low power compsution (lower than my X850XT PE) so I find it's quite an accomplishement.

Next is the availiblity. ATI has been plagued recently with no Crossfire, no cards. I find their reputation has been spoilt badly and it'll take em some time to get that straighten out. And the reduction on their warrenty is evil. Evil i tell ya.

So is this the amazing card I was expetcing? No. I mean, sure performance is better than the 7800 GTX but still, NVidia is becoming a great allrounder cuz they rule in OpenGL and in DX. But ATI still hasn't gotten their OpenGL on par. Yet. One thing is the drivers on ATI are just a billion times better than NV and I can't wait to see what they can do.

Finally, price. You don't get that much better speeds for the amount you're going to pay more than the 7800 series. So it's not totally worth it. IMHO. And the price on the XT card is going to SKYROCKET since it will never appear.

So what do I make out of all this? Is it a failure? No but it ain't a win. Far from it. I think NV has the top hand again (mobile is back with them, desktop imho, etc...) They really played their cards well. I just hope that ATI STOPS trying to copy NV now and they really push it for the R580

temeteus82

Anyone read THG's preview of X1K series???

http://graphics.tomshardware.com/gra...006/index.html

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pj.morgan

Heres my thoughts:

After the inital delay, having to wait another month for availablity is annoying. Although until NV raised the bar this was considered the norm, so you have to say hats off to them for that.

Performance is good, but not really any better than NV GTX, NV has their card available now, and at a cheaper price. In the UK the X1800XT is £420, thats about £100 more than a GTX. I'm an ATI fan, but for the first time in years I have actually considered buying an NV card.

When all the reviews appeared yesterday, I went through them all specifically looking for an overclocking section. Is it me or did no one oc the cards? If these cards oc'd well that would swing things back in favour for me, anyone got a link to an oc review?

The only other thing going for ATI at the moment is the work Terry does here for the community, which in my eyes is a big plus...I can't imagine NV ever doing that, or putting themselves out for people the way Terry does.

I think I'll wait for someone to get an X1800XT on decent cooling (water / aftermarket air) and see how she clocks, if its a no go then I think I will sit this one out and wait for R580....I bet shes not the usual 6 months away.

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Kombatant

What ATI did wrong (especially with the Euro sites) was that reviewers had 2 days to bench ALL of the cards, which imo is unacceptable. Ask our Veridian3 at what lengths he went to in order to bring us these benchmarks. And still, in such a short period of time, you can't possibly test everything.

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dipstick

Honestly I think the whole lineup is excellent but they need to get them out the door asap. It's getting very tiresome to want something new but not being able to find it or if you do its priced $400 over msrp. IQ is one thing ATI has always had over nVidia but its gotten to the point where its not worth waiting for. For those that decided to wait on upgrading there is nothing to be dissatisfied with, the cards simply burn through even the highest resolutions with the best IQ out there. Those who took the plunge with the 7800's should also be very happy as their cards are still going blow for blow with ATi's latest. If ATi can deliver the goods they will have great success with the new lineup.

ronnn

I think that the launch went relatively poorly. Ati is still obviously having problems getting cards out the door. For some insane reason I believe that they are coming on mass - as production issues are somewhat fixed. With a first driver set, these cards performed amazingly well and with refinements - both in construction (coolers) and drivers - they will start to steal the show. Most new tech tends to catch up to their 3dmark scores as drivers mature. My prediction is that by Christmas the pressure will be on Nvidia to catch up, but until than will be dark days for Ati. In terms of performance the x1800xl and xt are something I would like. Just not too quickly, as I just bought my x800xtpe refurb late this summer. Ok I am biased, as Ati cards have treated me very well and the x800xtpe has just worked and games look and play great.

riles9262

I think that the higher end cards are fine, although late. However, I think that the midrange/lowrange cards, where the majority of the market is, are severely lacking. The 1600 and 1300 are priced too highly to compete with their said competitors; I mean who'd really choose a 1300 when a 6600gt is available at the same price? Lastly, a late launch means that oem systems (with current technology) have gone with nvidia instead, and that's a huge chunk of market that's hard to recover.

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Dyre Straits

IMHO there is NO launch until the product is actually available. I fail to see why there's so much hype about a product that can only be read about online. Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of ATi's products, but, this just doesn't cut it.

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pr0digal jenius

bingo

Ping_of_HG

This thread is a no brainer. As stated by others above, ATI is trying to get up from a beat down position.

It really comes down to a few basic points.

-ATI didn't deliver on time.
-ATI's newest is hotter, bigger & more expensive.
-ATI's are slower (right now).
-ATI's Crossfire is a underperforming pipe dream (at this time).

-Nvidia's cards (7800GT/GTX) are the opposite(& cheaper) than the above.
-Nvidia's cards are all SLI and motherboards are easy to come by.

The_Neon_Cowboy

I don’t have any issues with you. Only person I have issue with would be mike2h.
Everyone else is just fine and dandy. We have a lot more in common then you
think. Most forget I used to be a major advocate for NVIDIA until my views
changed now I’m ATI leaning. I’ve went from NVIDIA to ATI, From ATI to NVIDIA
to NVIDIA to ATI.

I keep up to date on what going on at ATI and NVIDIA though I pay more of
my attention to ATI due to being a beta tester and because I prefer them at
this time. Listening to earning calls etc to get information that you’d not know
oftherwise and other stuff like that. I read tons regards to both, company’s,
cards, etc… Also I look at a lot more then “who’s faster”. Also I keep up with
what XGI and others are up to. When I go to buy a card for my self of together
I consider all my options and make an educated choice.


People forget though you or I may have made up our minds for the time being
But for every one of us there aree thousands trying to decide. Things and read
by many more people then join or in the discussion and I try to take that into
account as well.

If no one challenged or didn’t have different views the world be a boring place .

Yep, that’s the way I see it no matter what way you look at it. I don’t see why
people have an issue with people expressing their opinion and what you know.
I just post my opinion and let the people decide what they will as they will do
anyways. Only thing I’d ask is people keep and open mind. Closed minds and
open mouths gets us no where. I always invite a good argument but frown when
one is stand on weak ground, ignore what you say and quickly resort to branding
labels on people who have opposing views..

X850 Crossfire edition has showed up recently...
http://shop.ati.com/product.asp?sku=2739026

Though the boards is still "MIA" I believe they are w working on
Improving things that the reviewer brought up. In regard to the USB
Speed, Ethernet cpu usage etc… etc… There are how ever chipsets
from Intel that will be supporting crossfire coming. I’ve been drilling
for information can’t find what existing board crossfire will work in.
That’s kind of driving me nuts that sort of need to know information
though I sure it will eventually surface. I kind of disappointed in the lack of
information and product.

According to the earning call the cards will show up in November and yields
have been better then expected. That the delay wasn’t a yield problem but and
design problem in the process. Listen in sometime it interesting stuff, especially
when they get to the phone calls and people asking questions.

I herd that, that was bad but no one says your review had to be up immediately.
Couldn’t you have just done a quick overview and then posted the real deal once
you’d had the time to go threw it all. People shouldn’t worry about being 1st as
most read more then just one review anyways. That my view on it. Though they
should of given you a little more time.

Well the way it was as you launch and the cards show up in about 30 days wich should be the case this round. Now after NVIDIA been getting on the ball early
people are expecting the same from ATI. R580 might be the releases that bring
them back up to speed in that area because it came of with out a hitch and
tapped out. I would expect a prompter release next time. So far there are a ½
dozen sites that have preorders set up.

R420 was a magor feasco though I don't belive we are seeing anything like that.

Gotta admit the R520 is a verry intesting offering, we are lerning new
stuff like it has a PPU for physics!!! that we are just people working on
processing data on video cards at stanford found a nice gem too. It seems
R520 does alot better at processing data
http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/4...folding8ls.gif

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Lakevren

Well, I'm not surprised about the paper launch.

Not surprised about the availability (I don't think anyone should, unless they were not following ATI's trend of availability).

The performance? Expectation met, but not exceeded.
Then again, like more than half of the good games (exception to Doom 3. Horrible game) coming out are all getting Nvidia-bribed (Number 2 reason why I hate Nvidia).

And the price? Actually exceeded my expectation. If people were knowledgable about economics and how ATI works, ATI cards were usually more expensive than Nvidia cards.

But no, people expect half-assedly. Been look around the other forums other than Driverheaven, and they are all saying "disappointed, 7800 > X1800, Why get X1800 for 50 dollars more than 7800 with same performance, ATI sucks, Nvidia owned ATI" blah blah.

Course, I mostly see stupid children posting incomplete facts.
ATI had to develop 3 (or 2) separate projects: R500 for the Xbox360, Crossfire, and the X1000 series. That is why the results are rather satisfying for me. I knew ATI was on full workload. And I definitely knew the past year was not a good result, so less R&D money, and cramming all that with several projects (although they got a boost from Microsoft's money). But unfortuantely, simple people do not consider the situations. But this was all my expectations.
Other people want a superbly superior product beyond 7800GTX. I say it matched it.

And yeah, I also saw other benches than Driverheaven's. Some didn't include all of the different resolutions and/or the AA AF. Or Maybe they picked a specific AA AF. Anyways, I'd rather wait until we get hands on the real piece and put more benches for more games.

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SFOSOK

I just believe whoever is in charge of marketing for ATI should be fired. They should have had a lot more Crossfire mobos out on the market before the release of this card. If you decided you are goin ATI only and you are AGP right now your computer you either have to settle for a crossfire mobo from a small sellection or get a single slot which will not future proof your computer and idealy save you money. Just seems like they either didn't know what the hell they were doin when they were marketing (for what ever reason) or they pushing to make the R580 launch awsome. If ATI does not make the X1800XT crossfire (I don't know if it is or not) then two 7800GTX's in SLI will outperform it hands down.




What really gets me is that ATI stated that their card for Xbox360 will have 48 pipelines and that it clearly makes a differenece in performance and quality and then they say that a large amount of piplines are not needed in the x1800 series cards.


I don't love ATI or Nvidia, and I don't hate them either. I just think about what will last for the price I get it at. I think with a good enough after market cooler you could clock the 7800GTX well over the x1800 XT speeds and probably make like an Ultra version that never was released.

If ATI would have made an AGP version of the x1800 series then that would I have been the smartest move they had ever made recently.


I love my 7800GTX and I don't plan to change it anytime soon. If you are AGP you should probably wait to get a decent crossfire board around the release of the r580 and do it the right way to protect urself from the speeds of technology. If you need something right now x1800 is probably the fastest but the 7800GTX is cheaper for a little less performance.

If you are x800 AGP and not an enthusiast who has to have things as soon as they get out, wait.

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METAL!!

The_Neon_Cowboy

Well that was their plan but when released to reviewer they where
meet would some serious criticisms. So you can guess that they are
attempting to fix and improve some things before thing a relesed. I
mean would you rather have a horribly crappy one now or a good one later?

Also ATI won’t be the only ones with crossfire capable chipsets.

The Xbox chip was done independently and with consoles made in mind.
Not a desktop chip that was simply “ported” for console use as was done
in the past. Case you didn’t notice the Xbox 360 has a lot of power and you
can NOT upgrade a consoles video. So if you think you’ll see what’s in there
has to last 1 or two years. You can’t do anything like that for the desktops
unless and everyone are prepared to spend say $2,000 every 6-8 mouths because
thing change in PC’s for example direct X10 is around the bend. It just wouldn’t
work.

R520 took a whole different direction a redesign that goes for a much higher
Efficiency. I mean would you expected a 16 pipe card to be able to best a 24
pipe one? Sure you would of jested that it not possible. (No one can say it just
a R300 with higher locks and more pipes as they have so many times.)ATI
changed it enough you can’t even go by the number “traditional” pipes any
more! I’m interested in what R580 will bring to the table. Surely even higher
clock and more pipes. NVIDIA’s sure worried G70 ultra canceled, G71, went?
, G72 announced for early next year….



By after market cooler to be like one of those $1000 promeathia systems?
I’m sure you not talking a $30-$50 cooler. I think it would take an awful lot of
Cooling to get a NV card to those speeds. At lest water cooling I would think.
Keep in mind we haven’t even seen what and over clocked R520 can do either.

AGP has lived longer then it should have due to MB mfgs making board that
have both and people not making the transition yet. In the long tern AGP makes
no sense since its been replaced by PCIe both NVIDIA ATI sees it. What they
might do in the future who knows they could always make a bridge card that cost
$50 more and that is likely bottle necked by you system LOL so you don’t see
anywhere near the full performance. Would negate the purpose of making one
wouldn’t it?

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Dyre Straits

When I think of a "product launch", what comes to mind is the way Windows 95 and 98 were launched. I stood in line at midnight when those two came out. They were launched and available at the same time. In fact, with Windows 98, I got my mug shown all over the world on CNN saying, "I got my copy of Windows 98!" My son and I both stood in line at the Computer City in Smyrna in order to get our copies that night.

To say that any product has been launched, and the product isn't immediately available just doesn't fly with me.

Other than the few cards that were "pre-produced" for testing purposes, just how many people actually can get their hands on one today?

If ATI wanted to do it right, and at the same time keep things close to the vest, they could have warehoused cards and, at launch, offered 2-3 day shipping options. 30 - 60 days leaves a bad taste for me.

Of course, this is just my opinion.

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The_Neon_Cowboy

That leaves them with large expensive pile of products that
are losing value. Witch is very dangerous as a company you
don't want to have surplus stock and ati is over brimming already
with a surplus of X800's .

Let say they did that and had a pitfall you could see ATI hit some
serious strife maybe even go out of business or have to go bankrupt.
Its risky business.... ATI has been getting backs up as in having
more then one fab doing the work, having two companies doing the
packaging, 2 suppliers for things, etc to get some added redundancy
listen to their earnings cal some nice info in there.

It coast them time and money going out with out profit coming is a
very dangerous.

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Sandok

Well the thing is that everyone here made fun of the 6800 series cuz the ultra was dual slot, power hungry, big, bulky...

Seems to me this X1000 series is the same.

ronnn

Well therein lies the rub for me. On one hand the x1800 is very effiecient and forward looking. Really does make the 7800 gtx look like old tech. But it is also all the things you said. I will just defer judgement on this whole thing for a few months. Ati obviously rushed the launch and was not ready, but that makes the launch premature - doesn't make the tech awful.

Lakevren

So, anyone know about the change of management ATI had?

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Necrosis

The only reason why the card has 16 pipes in the first place is because of yield problems. Going by rumor the R580 is a working/produced core just there isn't too many of them because of yield issues. I love how people keep talking about the pipes but keep ignoring the clock speeds.

430MHz part vs a 625MHz. Yeah I hope it would be faster 8 pipes missing or not.

It would be interesting to downlclock the 1800XT to GTX speeds to see how it will really do. Better yet to make it even more interesting by disabling 8 pipes on the GTX.

I really don't think Nvidia is that worried. If they were the Ultra would of been released. However, with the current die size it would run hotter, and consume more power than the 1800XT.

I think the next release will be extremely exciting. I'd love a 1850XT 625MHz /w 32 Pipes. I think that is what we should of had right now anyway.

Small blurb about Crossfire. Um..most folks who own current PCI-E cards are running on Nforce boards. So what really is the big hurry? The folks running on AGP will have to upgrade their cards anyway, if they do will what do you think they will buy X800's or X1800's???

Lakevren

Well, as I've said in another thread (unless I changed my mind and canceled the post), I'll wait for the R620. Unless of course, I get enough money for Mobo+CPU+Video card, which I don't (lacking around 300+ dollars. Have enough for the Card, don't have enough for the mobo+cpu, and i'd like a really good CPU.) Plus, my X800XTPE is good enough. Overkill on the 1-2 year old games. Does 50+ on current games. I'll wait until my FPS turns to smush in the 20fps zone.

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ronnn

There lies the other catch for me, I just got my x800xtpe refurb this summer and games are lots of fun to play. Even the fear demo runs well, so am feeling under no pressure to upgrade just yet.

SFOSOK

If ATI was waiting for the R580 to be revolutionary then they should have made the R520 AGP. I know ATI is not the only maker of crossfire boards but there will not be enough variety of them available to the average consumer when the release of the R520 comes around. So this is why AGP is important. If the R520 would have been AGP they would sell quiet a great deal better.


What I dislike is the fact that quiet a few Pro-ATI users make it seem like dual card is obsolete or not needed. Well I myself plan to save alot of money by buying another 7800GTX when It is *needed* to save myself more money then selling and buying my one card for another. I would like to see how two 1800XT perform in crossfire, I bet you won't here any complaints about how obsolete dual cards are from the ATI fanboy side when they release reviews for that. I'm guessing Nvidia fanboys are the same way, just don't see much here. I just want a good card for a good price that will last me a while.


And Necrosis that really depends on the user. Most users are not spend happy. They want their best bang for the buck and something that will last. My only advice is x800 series card users wait for something better with better Crossfire mobos in the future around R580 when you make the switch to PCI-E.

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METAL!!

The_Neon_Cowboy

I’m still waiting for both makers to realize you can cool both sides
of the card And if they did a little more effort in their coolers they
could have awesome cooling and keep a low profile. A simple couple
heat pipes and a small fan and heat sink on the reverse o f the GPU
would make a big cooling difference. That would and kill the need for
a big cooler.

I don’t like it either but I don’t exactly blame them either with
625 MHz Their surely rolling some heat. PCIe there is more space
invovled but with dual on AGP was worse IMO Killed a PCI slot plus
a least.

I'd like to see beter coolers but you can bet they want to sell
cards and not insight overclocking. But one can hope...

According to sources inside and outside of ATI the word has been
R580 went off with out a hitch from the drawing bard. That why they
apparently tapped it and presumable have been producing. They didn’t
hit into a MFG problem as they did with R520 which as a show stopper.
“Problem wasn’t yields”; there was an issue in the process it self.
According to the earnings call. The rest of the line up didn’t have the problem
either. Though there where several teams the one that did r520 also did 2 others
in the line up and they didn’t have issues either. Hard to launch with out a
flag ship though.

I though about something like that that I’d like to see a X1800XT
clocked at X850XT PE speeds myself. So we can see what all they
did besides clocks. I think it will be something like X1800/X1900XT PE
when they release R580 as it is a leap. According to what was said in on
site saying that their working on a unified architecture like they did with
the Xbox 360 but I’d take that with a grain of salt.

G72 will be a 90NM version of 7800GTx from what I saw in the release
merely a process change which could mean better clocks. By they promised
90NM and 110NM 7800Gtx’s before the 1st card was released. Still waiting …
Though their CEO said in one interview or in response to someone that they
have two 90NM GPUs in production. ATI’s new line top to bottom is 90NM


No one expected AGP to last this long I said something to that effect above

I’m against dual cards my self though I’ll probably end up with one. It makes
like a billion times more since to slap two GPU’s on one card. ATI’s and others
(not NVIDIA to my knowledge, did they) have been doing since the rage / tnt /
matrox days. It would require NO SPECIAL BOARDS and any board with a 16X PCIe would be good to go for Ati or Nvidia. Not to mention It would cost you a
lot less money 1.5 X the price vs Crossfire/SLI bing 2X the price plus motherboard
and good power supply.(I like the new asus dual 7800 desighn uses and externa
plus in the wall power source it looks like)

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Necrosis

Either way there was an issue which kept the card from the consumer for quite a long time. So if they really do have the R580's now why not release them?

It will be a speed/pipe leap if any thing. However, I doubt it'll be speed since there isn't that much they can do to refine their 90nm process. Also would be interesting to do the same thing /w the 6800's as well.

Process change that would give them more room to add some thing if they liked as well. It's not impossible for them to add more pipes, and boost the speed. However, they won't be adding the programmable memory like ATI has. Which I personally think is the most exciting thing in their new generation of cards. Now come on Neon don't tell me you're going try to put spin on this, because Nvidia doesn't have their top out of line out yet with 90nm. That is quite bit like the pot calling the kettle black. How long has the 7800's been out? Wasn't the R520 supposed to been released around the same time? We're still waiting on the 1800XT's....