Using ASIO for Gituar. Very Noisy

Russ · Mar 13, 2006, 09:59 PM

Again, the ASIO inputs, into the DSP (out of the host) are on FxBus, with all the other software inputs (they are shared).

Asio (0/1) (out of the host) would be FxBus (0/1)
Asio (2/3) would be FxBus (2/3)
...
, etc.

Look in kX Router to see how they are assigned.

Maddogg6 · Mar 13, 2006, 10:03 PM

Also - I should mention - that in the KX mixer (and Prolog) - this same behavior is accomplished by turning on the 'AC97 2 <> I2S' switch and using the 'AC97-2' level in KX Ins & Outs page.
Not sure why there was a change in names here?? But UDA = AC97-2 AFAIK.

ROBSCIX · Mar 13, 2006, 10:07 PM

OH OK..(LIGHT BULB) that what you mean...lol...that explains it, so if I assigne it to say 0,1 it will go into the surround..2,3 the frnt,4,5 the rears? That was my next thing the Router..I open the panel and click ASIO then I click ASIO 0 what are all the sliders for? I really, really appreciate this..

Russ · Mar 13, 2006, 10:14 PM

2/3 is for the kX Synth's (and ASIO (2/3)), not front (4/5), but you are starting to understand (and front/rear, etc., only applies to xrouting/Surrounder).

As for kX router, yours would be a lot different from mine, as you have more FX Sends, and more buses, but the sliders are to set the FX Send amounts, and the numbers are the FxBus pins. Look in kX help for more info.

ROBSCIX · Mar 13, 2006, 10:29 PM

OK, so I could use the SRC, and set it to the corresponding output fxbus0,1 for example and I could do it that way with no need fo having the FX bus loaded..correct?
so I could have:
ADC Linein/UDA > ASIO(plugin) 0,1

SRC fxbus0,1 > KLT1 fronts
sound right?
Well I guess I will test it out and tell you if I am right..lol..thx alot Russ much appreciated. The router is still a mystery but I got the basics down..I will have to read up on the rest. See what type of sound I can get...THX again

Russ · Mar 13, 2006, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX

OK, so I could use the SRC, and set it to the corresponding output fxbus0,1 for example and I could do it that way with no need fo having the FX bus loaded..correct?
so I could have:
ADC Linein/UDA > ASIO(plugin) 0,1

SRC fxbus0,1 > KLT1 fronts
sound right?

Yes.

Remember to adjust the line_in/UDA level appropriately for whatever preset you use on your RP100, and only use as much gain as is necessary to get the sound you want.

ROBSCIX · Mar 13, 2006, 11:12 PM

OK I tried to do a basic setup to make sure I understood everything....heres what I did..
Cleared DSP
I used a PROFX AC97 plugin et for line and I can see a level, i have that connected to PROFX ASIO plugin on asio 0,1 - this is my input to the app correct? -I have the application set for KX ASIO 0,1 -this seems fine.

For the output I set the app to KX out 0,1
I connect a SRC set for FXBUS 0,1 to a peak meter...I have no signal, I check every setting in SRC...what am I doing wrong here? first of all this should work correct?
I can get it all to work by using just a line but then I can't process the sound using VST...

Russ · Mar 13, 2006, 11:18 PM

What host are you using?
Did you see the signal in the host?

Maddogg6 · Mar 13, 2006, 11:20 PM

Keep in mind - you wont HEAR the ADC/AC97 input unless:
1) ADC is also connected (via a mixer) in the dsp to an output (epilog or ProFx 10Klt) OR
2) Software monitoring is turned on in host (which sends its selected input to the selected ASIO out channels.)

ROBSCIX · Mar 13, 2006, 11:25 PM

THis is a sort of freeware FX processor, it allows you to load VST effects and use them with a guitar...
it's called Nials' pedal board..I think I got it from KVR..so I am trying to figure things out...This is actually a good little app..any ideas, would the setup I mentioned work? should that show me a outgoing signal?

Russ · Mar 13, 2006, 11:43 PM

Ok, I gave that a try. It doesn't have any indicators that a signal is present so it would be a little more difficult to use than other hosts, but:

Select your ASIO inputs and outputs.
Load a VST.
Click Start Audio and you should hear it.

Maddogg6 · Mar 13, 2006, 11:44 PM

It works for me - just make sure you select the KX ASIO (Top of audio options - in Nial) - an then select the INPUT 10KX 0(/1) and OUTPUT 10Kx 0(/1)

Note: use 2 if using stereo, ot just 1 for mono - thus the parentheses above

ROBSCIX · Mar 14, 2006, 12:00 AM

You are using this with a default KX setup? you didn't change anything?

Maddogg6 · Mar 14, 2006, 12:01 AM

I used a DSP setup you described earlier...

blown503 · Mar 14, 2006, 12:20 AM

Are you usind good cables, not the $9.99 ones? bad cables around all the other wires on the back of a puter puts out crazy cross signals that one off cable might pick up.

blown503 · Mar 14, 2006, 12:23 AM

oh another thing are you using the mic input or the line in?

Lex Nahumury · Mar 14, 2006, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

The UDA in AC97/ADC - consists of a switch and 2 extra outputs from the plugin.. Switching to UDA - enables the 2 UDA outputs - and CAN NOT be used at the same time - you must select 1 or the other - only 1 output is active at 1 time. Or at least thats how it is for me.

Actualy they *can* be active the same time.
Just not from the same analog input source.
There should be a preset demonstrating this.

Note that on most (if not all) audigy cards you will have 2x2 = 4 Seperate Analog Inputs!

That is why I wrote ADC in the first place; to give easy, simultanious access to those 4 analog inputs.

Also note that the ADC plugin's Peak meter only reflects AC97 signal.
Not UDA signal.
Hmm,..maybe I should write a small tutor for it or update my dsp guide for profx.

/Lex

PS:
Yes, UDA is the secondary codec AC97.2 only found on audigy cards.

Maddogg6 · Mar 14, 2006, 08:58 AM

Ahhh - So it does do 2x2 = sweet Lex. The 'Record Source' stuff is a bit mis-leading tho...

I just noticed that when switching the UDA on - I need to reset the Record Source drop downs, as that seems to mute the AC97 outs. Using presets avoids this from happening. (I never used the presets before just now for ADC)

- prolly why I didnt notice its capability earlier.

Still ... Very cool.

Lex Nahumury · Mar 14, 2006, 11:08 AM

Quote:

The 'Record Source' stuff is a bit mis-leading tho...

Yeah, although technicly correct (it refers to ac97's record source) it can be quite confusing I agree.

You see, this is a direct result of CL cards beeing designed for multi-media usage.
Packed with all kinds of diff. codecs hardwired in very strange ways just to accomodate
multi-media hype applications.
(semi-pro cards are generaly much more' simpeler' in design)

kX does a real great job in disclosing all those 'hidden' potentials to the user
but it doesn't necessarely make things 'easier' by doing so

.

Unfortunatly there is no way to make kX interface easier without sacrifising
the flexibility most of us kX users have grown accustomed to.

Quote:

..I just noticed that when switching the UDA on - I need to reset the Record Source drop downs, as that seems to mute the AC97 outs.

I can't check this atm because I dont have my adgy installed. I'll have at look at it later.

/Lex.

Lex Nahumury · Mar 14, 2006, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

I see. I did not know that it added 2 extra outputs.

'Way to Go' Russ..

.

Russ · Mar 14, 2006, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lex Nahumury

'Way to Go' Russ..

.

eh? I do not understand what you mean.

Lex Nahumury · Mar 14, 2006, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

eh? I do not understand what you mean.

I thought this was funny:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maddogg6
@Russ:
The UDA in AC97/ADC - consists of a switch and 2 extra outputs from the plugin.. Switching to UDA - enables the 2 UDA outputs - and CAN NOT be used at the same time - you must select 1 or the other - only 1 output is active at 1 time. Or at least thats how it is for me.

I see. I did not know that it added 2 extra outputs. Thanks for the info

.... Nevermind tho.

ROBSCIX · Mar 14, 2006, 06:03 PM

I know that it adds two outs from the UDA codec..I just don't understand it's function..The Line_in can be routed through normal AC97, or I can hit the switch and it'll go through the UDA codec? What is the purpose of that? MEaning if I had CL drivers loaded when would the drivers use that extra codec? or is it the direct result of the cards being designed for multimedia applications?

Maddogg6 · Mar 14, 2006, 06:50 PM

The UDA is a higher quality codec (I dont hear much of a difference tho) - and it hows I would record an AC97 input @ 24/96 (I DO hear the difference at this point - btw - being 24/96 now)
(Connect the AC97 <-> I2S switch - then select THAT I2S (I forget which one it is now, I2S-2 I think) as the P16V Record Source.

Its ALSO allow us Audigy people to record from 2 AC97 inputs seperately and independantly. (2x2 = 4 or 2 stereo) in other words record 4 mono tracks at 1 time. (in 16/48 only, as 24/96 only allows 1 input recorded at 1 time)

Lex Nahumury · Mar 14, 2006, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX

I know that it adds two outs from the UDA codec..I just don't understand it's function..The Line_in can be routed through normal AC97, or I can hit the switch and it'll go through the UDA codec? What is the purpose of that? MEaning if I had CL drivers loaded when would the drivers use that extra codec? or is it the direct result of the cards being designed for multimedia applications?

LINE -\
MIC -- + ---- AC97.2(UDA) -------> DSP L&R
CD ---/
AUX -/
|
|
|---------- AC97.1 REC SOURCE ->DSP L&R

This is how it works,..... oeps have to eat,.. brb

OK,
UDA is fed with the output signal of AC97 Analog Mixer.
AC97 Rec Source can be selected as usual.

Suppose you select CD as AC97 Rec Source
and activate LINE-IN in AC97 Mixer,
then you'll have 2 x 2 = 4 seperate analog input signals at your dispossal!
(see ADC's preset: AC97 CD + UDA line)

Almost any weird combination is possible.
Note that since UDA is fed with analog mixer output of AC97 device,
it also 'inherits' ac97 noise.

Now you also may understand why I put the UDA switch in the Mixer section of ADC plugin.
It's because UDA is always fed with the output of that Mix!

Sorry, we didn't made it that way.

HTH,

/Lex.

Lex Nahumury · Mar 14, 2006, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

I just noticed that when switching the UDA on - I need to reset the Record Source drop downs, as that seems to mute the AC97 outs. Using presets avoids this from happening.

Hmm,.. i just installed a 10k2 card,
when I toggle ADC's UDA switch,
AC97 Rec Source remains active as it should be.
What card?

Maddogg6 · Mar 14, 2006, 09:20 PM

I have a dual card setup - btw

Help about info...

1) The A2ZS Platinum (not pro)

Quote:

----------------------------------------------------
Current skin: Aqua Skin
Skin Author: Eugene Gavrilov
----Hardware / Software configuration---------------
Driver Name:kX Audio Driver (Debug)
Driver Date: Jan 23 2006 01:43:49
Driver Version: 5.10.00.3538 - debug
DB Name:LiveBay2
SB0350 10k2 [b800]
PCI Information:
Device: 41102 Subsys: 20021102 ChipRev: 4
Card is '10k2'
Card has MPU device
Card model is '5.1'
Card is Audigy2-compatible
Card HAS AC97 codec
Codec name: Unk AC97-codec [83847650]
3D Extension: SigmaTel 3D Enhancement
Codec is 2.0 compliant
Capabilities[6a90] : -headphone out-
DAC resolutions : -16-bit- -20-bit-
ADC resolutions : -16-bit- -20-bit-
Ext Capabilities [605]: -var rate PCM audio- -slot/DAC mappings-
Port: b800 Irq: 0x7(7)
Playback buffer: 20a0
Record buffer: 4000
Number of AC3 buffers: 4
Tank memory: 2048 kb
GSIF buffer: 256 samples
OS version: [2 5 1 Service Pack 2; 2 5 1 Service Pack 2; 156 148]
----------------------------------------------------

2) SB Live Value (OEM) (CT4832)

Quote:

----------------------------------------------------
Current skin: Aqua Skin
Skin Author: Eugene Gavrilov
----Hardware / Software configuration---------------
Driver Name:kX Audio Driver (Debug)
Driver Date: Jan 23 2006 01:43:49
Driver Version: 5.10.00.3538 - debug
DB Name:none
CT4832 10k1 [b000]
PCI Information:
Device: 21102 Subsys: 80271102 ChipRev: 8
Card has MPU device
Card HAS AC97 codec
Codec name: Cirrus Logic CS4297A
3D Extension: Crystal Semi 3D Stereo Enhancement
Codec is 2.0 compliant
Capabilities[1990] : -headphone out-
DAC resolutions : -16-bit- -20-bit-
ADC resolutions : -16-bit- -18-bit-
Ext Capabilities [200]: -slot/DAC mappings-
Port: b000 Irq: 0x5(5)
Playback buffer: 20a0
Record buffer: 4000
Number of AC3 buffers: 4
Tank memory: 256 kb
GSIF buffer: 256 samples
OS version: [2 5 1 Service Pack 2; 2 5 1 Service Pack 2; 156 148]
----------------------------------------------------

Edit: Im using AUX for the record source and Line in for UDA - doubt it would make a difference, but to show Im not using same source for both... I dunno??

Now that I know - its no biggy -
Maybe it interaction with the KX Mixer AC97 <> I2S switch setting - I have mine checked - maybe this is a factor ?? .. doesnt seem to make difference for me tho.

Either way, Im not worried about it personally - Im just happy as a pig in poo that I have 2x2 AC97 capability anyway...

Maybe a note in your guide telling everyone to set the record source AFTER enableing UDA if having problems getting 2x2 ac97.

Lex Nahumury · Mar 15, 2006, 08:15 AM

@Maddogg6,
Can you describe what exactly happens?
I mean does rec source mute, or flips input selection.
You mentioned when using presets all was ok? Elaborate pls.

( it could be a simple initialization order issue)

/Lex N.

Maddogg6 · Mar 15, 2006, 08:49 AM

Normally - I select inputs pretty frequently - never using presets.
When I set rec source drop downs - AC97 outputs get enabled (I have AC97 <> I2S on in all my DSP setups, which also get reloaded frequently btw) BUT, when I turn ON UDA - the AC97 goes mute and the UDA output becomes active. I have to change the rec source drop down again to re-activate the AC97 outputs.

Now, I save a preset with my desired 'routing' in ADC, loading this presets will allow both outputs to be active, I f I turn off UDA - the AC97 output is now what used to be the UDA source - the UDA is now silent - turing UDA back on leaves AC97 output mute until I select a new record source (chooseing same record source doesnt seem to make difference) I would then select the real source I want (back to what it was) and all outputs are working again.

Thats about as much detail as I can think of.

Lex Nahumury · Mar 15, 2006, 10:12 AM

What happens if you toggle the Red "enable rec source" button
after the UDA_ON has muted your AC97?

Does it by any change reactivates AC97?

Mar 13, 2006, 11:20 PM	#39
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 50	Keep in mind - you wont HEAR the ADC/AC97 input unless: 1) ADC is also connected (via a mixer) in the dsp to an output (epilog or ProFx 10Klt) OR 2) Software monitoring is turned on in host (which sends its selected input to the selected ASIO out channels.) Last edited by Maddogg6; Mar 13, 2006 at 11:25 PM.

Mar 14, 2006, 12:20 AM	#45
blown503 HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: S. Indiana Posts: 573 Rep Power: 57	Are you usind good cables, not the $9.99 ones? bad cables around all the other wires on the back of a puter puts out crazy cross signals that one off cable might pick up. __________________

Mar 14, 2006, 12:23 AM	#46
blown503 HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: S. Indiana Posts: 573 Rep Power: 57	oh another thing are you using the mic input or the line in? __________________

Mar 15, 2006, 10:12 AM	#60
Lex Nahumury DH Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,930 Rep Power: 62	What happens if you toggle the Red "enable rec source" button after the UDA_ON has muted your AC97? Does it by any change reactivates AC97? Last edited by Lex Nahumury; Mar 15, 2006 at 10:24 AM. Reason: typo

Mar 13, 2006, 09:59 PM	#31
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,507 Rep Power: 61	Again, the ASIO inputs, into the DSP (out of the host) are on FxBus, with all the other software inputs (they are shared). Asio (0/1) (out of the host) would be FxBus (0/1) Asio (2/3) would be FxBus (2/3) ... , etc. Look in kX Router to see how they are assigned.

Mar 13, 2006, 10:03 PM	#32
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 50	Also - I should mention - that in the KX mixer (and Prolog) - this same behavior is accomplished by turning on the 'AC97 2 <> I2S' switch and using the 'AC97-2' level in KX Ins & Outs page. Not sure why there was a change in names here?? But UDA = AC97-2 AFAIK.

Mar 13, 2006, 10:07 PM	Thread Starter #33
ROBSCIX DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,732 Rep Power: 0	OH OK..(LIGHT BULB) that what you mean...lol...that explains it, so if I assigne it to say 0,1 it will go into the surround..2,3 the frnt,4,5 the rears? That was my next thing the Router..I open the panel and click ASIO then I click ASIO 0 what are all the sliders for? I really, really appreciate this..

Mar 13, 2006, 10:14 PM	#34
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,507 Rep Power: 61	2/3 is for the kX Synth's (and ASIO (2/3)), not front (4/5), but you are starting to understand (and front/rear, etc., only applies to xrouting/Surrounder). As for kX router, yours would be a lot different from mine, as you have more FX Sends, and more buses, but the sliders are to set the FX Send amounts, and the numbers are the FxBus pins. Look in kX help for more info.

Mar 13, 2006, 10:29 PM	Thread Starter #35
ROBSCIX DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,732 Rep Power: 0	OK, so I could use the SRC, and set it to the corresponding output fxbus0,1 for example and I could do it that way with no need fo having the FX bus loaded..correct? so I could have: ADC Linein/UDA > ASIO(plugin) 0,1 SRC fxbus0,1 > KLT1 fronts sound right? Well I guess I will test it out and tell you if I am right..lol..thx alot Russ much appreciated. The router is still a mystery but I got the basics down..I will have to read up on the rest. See what type of sound I can get...THX again

Mar 13, 2006, 11:12 PM	Thread Starter #37
ROBSCIX DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,732 Rep Power: 0	OK I tried to do a basic setup to make sure I understood everything....heres what I did.. Cleared DSP I used a PROFX AC97 plugin et for line and I can see a level, i have that connected to PROFX ASIO plugin on asio 0,1 - this is my input to the app correct? -I have the application set for KX ASIO 0,1 -this seems fine. For the output I set the app to KX out 0,1 I connect a SRC set for FXBUS 0,1 to a peak meter...I have no signal, I check every setting in SRC...what am I doing wrong here? first of all this should work correct? I can get it all to work by using just a line but then I can't process the sound using VST...

Mar 13, 2006, 11:18 PM	#38
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,507 Rep Power: 61	What host are you using? Did you see the signal in the host?

Mar 13, 2006, 11:25 PM	Thread Starter #40
ROBSCIX DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,732 Rep Power: 0	THis is a sort of freeware FX processor, it allows you to load VST effects and use them with a guitar... it's called Nials' pedal board..I think I got it from KVR..so I am trying to figure things out...This is actually a good little app..any ideas, would the setup I mentioned work? should that show me a outgoing signal?

Mar 13, 2006, 11:43 PM	#41
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,507 Rep Power: 61	Ok, I gave that a try. It doesn't have any indicators that a signal is present so it would be a little more difficult to use than other hosts, but: Select your ASIO inputs and outputs. Load a VST. Click Start Audio and you should hear it.

Mar 13, 2006, 11:44 PM	#42
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 50	It works for me - just make sure you select the KX ASIO (Top of audio options - in Nial) - an then select the INPUT 10KX 0(/1) and OUTPUT 10Kx 0(/1) Note: use 2 if using stereo, ot just 1 for mono - thus the parentheses above

Mar 14, 2006, 12:00 AM	Thread Starter #43
ROBSCIX DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,732 Rep Power: 0	You are using this with a default KX setup? you didn't change anything?

Mar 14, 2006, 12:01 AM	#44
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 50	I used a DSP setup you described earlier...

Mar 14, 2006, 08:58 AM	#48
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 50	Ahhh - So it does do 2x2 = sweet Lex. The 'Record Source' stuff is a bit mis-leading tho... I just noticed that when switching the UDA on - I need to reset the Record Source drop downs, as that seems to mute the AC97 outs. Using presets avoids this from happening. (I never used the presets before just now for ADC) - prolly why I didnt notice its capability earlier. Still ... Very cool.

Mar 14, 2006, 06:03 PM	Thread Starter #53
ROBSCIX DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,732 Rep Power: 0	I know that it adds two outs from the UDA codec..I just don't understand it's function..The Line_in can be routed through normal AC97, or I can hit the switch and it'll go through the UDA codec? What is the purpose of that? MEaning if I had CL drivers loaded when would the drivers use that extra codec? or is it the direct result of the cards being designed for multimedia applications?

Mar 14, 2006, 06:50 PM	#54
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 50	The UDA is a higher quality codec (I dont hear much of a difference tho) - and it hows I would record an AC97 input @ 24/96 (I DO hear the difference at this point - btw - being 24/96 now) (Connect the AC97 <-> I2S switch - then select THAT I2S (I forget which one it is now, I2S-2 I think) as the P16V Record Source. Its ALSO allow us Audigy people to record from 2 AC97 inputs seperately and independantly. (2x2 = 4 or 2 stereo) in other words record 4 mono tracks at 1 time. (in 16/48 only, as 24/96 only allows 1 input recorded at 1 time)

Mar 15, 2006, 08:15 AM	#58
Lex Nahumury DH Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,930 Rep Power: 62	@Maddogg6, Can you describe what exactly happens? I mean does rec source mute, or flips input selection. You mentioned when using presets all was ok? Elaborate pls. ( it could be a simple initialization order issue) /Lex N.

Mar 15, 2006, 08:49 AM	#59
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 50	Normally - I select inputs pretty frequently - never using presets. When I set rec source drop downs - AC97 outputs get enabled (I have AC97 <> I2S on in all my DSP setups, which also get reloaded frequently btw) BUT, when I turn ON UDA - the AC97 goes mute and the UDA output becomes active. I have to change the rec source drop down again to re-activate the AC97 outputs. Now, I save a preset with my desired 'routing' in ADC, loading this presets will allow both outputs to be active, I f I turn off UDA - the AC97 output is now what used to be the UDA source - the UDA is now silent - turing UDA back on leaves AC97 output mute until I select a new record source (chooseing same record source doesnt seem to make difference) I would then select the real source I want (back to what it was) and all outputs are working again. Thats about as much detail as I can think of.