xenomorph1138

I just installed kxdrivers for my AZS SB0350 on my Vista machine.
I'm using kxasio driver in FL Studio and the level meters are very low. Signal sounds very weak. When I use asio4all driver it's like I just added a compressor and some eq to the signal. This is a big difference in audio quality and signal strength. The kxdsp is set at default. Although I read the help files I could'nt find a solution. Has anyone had this problem before, with asio and FL Studio and if so, please share how you resolved it. Thanks in advance for any and all help and suggestions.

Maddogg6

What, exactly, are you recording?
A physical input line AC97's Line in? (This would be my first assumption)
- Are you trying to use AC97.2 (UDA)?
Recording Playback from a softsynth?
Recording Playback of a kX Synth?

Have you modified the kX DSP?

What Wave device did you use with ASIO4ALL?
Was this test with ASIO4ALL with kX Installed?

What format are you working in? 16/48 or 24/48? (ASIO4ALL with Wave HQ has been reported to do 24/96 - kX ASIO can not)

My psychic abilities seem to be on the fritz today

I can think of a couple reasons why this could occur...
But I havn't played with FL since before I used kX.

Simple steps with default DSP and kX ASIO in 16/48 Format...
If you have changed the kX DSP - right click 'Re-Initialize DSP' to get back to the default.

1) kX Mixer - AC97 Page - Enable 'AC97 <> I2S Routing Mode' switch.

2) kX Mixer - AC97 Page - Unmute and Adjust 'Line In' Level to '0' (No attenuation & No Gain).

2) kX Mixer - Ins & Outs Page - Unmute and adjust 'AC97.2' level to '0' (No attenuation & No Gain)

3) In FL studio, select 'kX ASIO 14/15' as the track input (selects AC97.2/UDA input).

Arm track for record - Adjust audio source (what ever is connected to AC97's Line In Input) for optimal level (never more than 0db) - Do Not adjust any kX Mixer setting!

You should record a almost exact copy of what ever is present on the AC97 Line In.

xenomorph1138

Thank you for responding. First let me apologize for lack of info on my part and that I'm not a musician nor a techi, so I'm not real familiar with alot of the correct terminology. I was asking a basic question in the hopes that someone would then ask me for the pertinant info that I need to provide in order to assist me in solving my problem.

Ok. I'll try to explain the best I can the way I understand it. I'm using Wizzoo Darbuka (vst) in FL Studio (demo) too create loops to use in Acid Music Studio. I'm using Sound Forge Audio Studio to make the actual recording of the wave file. So the signal is coming OUT of FL and IN to SF. (Note: I am not using any external devices such as guitar, keyboard or mic for recording)

In FL options/audio settings, there are 8 kx asio drivers to choose from, 0-7. Kx asio driver 0 is the only one that works. In asio panel, latency is set at 8.71ms/384 samples. Format is 16bit/44.1khz (16+0). Kx mixer and dsp settings are set to default except the recording master and wave sliders are up all the way. In SF options I choose asio4all for audio device. I seem to only be able to have one instance of kx asio in one program at a time. The same for asio4all as well.

The problem I'm having is present weather I'm recording or not. For instance, when any vsti is playing in FL, using the kx asio driver, the meters in FL mixer are very low also. That is, compared to if I were to use for instance, the asio4all driver in FL, instead of the kx asio driver or even direct sound, with the very same settings in FL mixer and kx mixer. I know there will be some difference in sound quality using different drivers. I was hoping the sound quality I would get from using the kx asio drivers would be equal to, if not better than asio4all, if setup correctly. Unfortunately, thats not the case presently. I can't even get the meter levels up in FL mixer to average -1 or -3dB (barely). And in SF I can't get a recording above -6dB. That's with the rec master and wave sliders all the way up in kx mixer. I tried toggling the I2S and that didn't do anything. I don't know if I'm making any sense or not. This kind of comunication (language) is not one of my better skills. Let me show you or you show me and i'm good to go. Be that as it is, I hope the info I provided, helps you to help myself.

Thanks for your time and assistance.

Maddogg6

This is what I would do...
Set kX Mixer Record Page:
'Master Record' to 100 & Un-Muted
'Wave Recording Level' to 100
Mute all other Levels here

In FL set it to output to kX ASIO 0/1 (you could try 2/3 also) - using 16/48 [16+16] (kX ASIO Control Panel) Not 44Khz.
In SF set it to use WDM driver mode and kX Wave 0/1 for a recording device, and 16/48Khz Format.

Make sure any 'software monitoring' is disabled. (Important - you do NOT want to monitor in SF - we are doing that in the DSP - This is one possible problem)

Use SF's superior (probably) resampling algo to resample to 44Khz. (Another possible problem is the redundant DSP resampling to 48 Khz. The DSP is locked into)

SF having a little extra latency should not be a problem. And you should get best results this way.

Russ

Hmm, that seems strange to me (I wonder if it is something releated to using Vista/kX)... I am not sure why the driver should effect the audio levels within FL Studio itself (for audio generated within the FL Studio). AFAIK, the meters in FL Studio should show the audio level that is generated by the VSTi, plus any volume adjustments made within FL Studio, and should not be effected by the driver chosen for playback (unless maybe it is somehow detecting the wrong format/bit depth (if you go into the audio config in FL Studio, what does it shows for the driver status? Does it show 44100Hz, Int16LSB?), ...and even then, I do not see why it should affect the internal meters).

xenomorph1138

Thanks for your responses.

That would'nt surprise me. I've had nothing but problems with the sound on Vista.

Yes, that is exactly what shows.

I guess what I'm saying is when I'm using the kx asio drivers in FL as opposed to asio4all, the meters in FL show a much weaker signal, and it shows in the meters when recording in SF. In SF there are no ajustments for rec levels. Adjustments have to be made by using the controls in FL and kx mixer. If I turn up the master rec and wave sliders in kx mixer, (in fact I have to) and on top of that turn the vol sliders in FL mixer past 0 into the + range just to get the levels up in SF, I end up with a distorted recording, and even then, I still can't get a recording in SF above -6dB. (Note: When I used to record with my old sb0228 in my XP machine with the creative drivers and software I could never get rec sliders in creative mixer up all the way. The meters in SF would be peaking before I got the sliders 3/4 the way up. Depending of coarse, on what I was recording. 90% of the time though, that was the case.)

Now if I use the asio4all driver in FL with the very same settings, I have to back off the volume controls in FL mixer and the meters in SF are peaking out. (Note: I have to use Windows Classic Wave driver in SF, while FL has the asio4all, cause when I select kx asio in SF options/audio the recording option is greyed out. Can't record with it.)

Anyway, I've been normalizing all my weak recordings and that seems to be working for me for now, but if there is something else I can do to improve the signal strength, (if that's what the problem is), I don't know. I'm hoping it's not one of those things I'm just gonna have to live with. At least I'm not dealing with the "Rice Krispies" (snap, krackle, pop)... as much. lol Every now and then in Acid. Very rare in FL when using kx asio.

I will follow through with maddoggs suggestion and post back. Give me a couple days. I have a busy day tommorow. Thanks again for your valued input.

Russ

It is understandable that the meters in SF might show a weaker signal, as the recording path out of FL Studio to Sound Forge is through kX (and thus subject to kX settings), I am just not sure why the meters in FL Studio would show a weaker signal (for audio that is generated internally).

I would suggest connecting a peak plugin to FxBus 0/1 and see what type of signal levels you get there (from FL Studio) when using kX ASIO -vs- ASIO4ALL (use a test signal generator VST (something like this) to generate a test tone at a specific level, and see if that level differs from what the meters in FL Studio and kX show, etc).

xenomorph1138

Ok. In FL besides selecting kx asio in FL options,.. at the bottom right of the FL mixer there is a rectangular box where kx asio has to be selected again. Once I selected it there the levels in the FL meters are back up where they should be. Unfortunately, it's not reflected in SF rec meter levels.


CHECK.


0/1 is the only one that functions. The others (2/3, 4/5, 6/7) I get error message. So, in FL option/mixer I set to 48khz, then opened asio control panel and set it to 16/48 (16+16). Made sure I selected (kx out 00-kx out 01) in the FL mixer.


These are the driver choices that I have in Sound Forge Audio Studio options/audio. (Windows Classic Wave Driver, Direct Sound Surround Mapper, Microsoft Sound Mapper and Asio4all) Which one are you refering to?


Monitor box is unchecked.


Can you be a little more specific?

I'll wait for your response before proceding with your instructions. And thanks for your help and support.

Russ

OK good, so now it should be just a matter of configuring kX for WinMM recording of audio from FxBus 0/1. With the default DSP config, it should just be a matter of setting the Master and Wave Recording levels to 100% (as Maddogg6 stated). Aside from the above, I would still check the signal levels in the DSP (check at FxBus 0/1 (so we can verify where the signal from FL is entering the DSP (in case the routing in Vista is somehow different), and also verify the level at the point), and at the RecL/RecR pins of xrouting.

Aside from the above, I would also verify any levels in the Windows Control Panel that may be relevant (again, I am not familiar with Vista, and thus cannot be sure that there are not any extra (software) volume controls implemented by the OS that might effect the recording level).

xenomorph1138

This is what I have thus far.

SF is set to Windows Classic Wave driver/kx wave 0/1 for rec and 16/48.


Slider controls for rec levels in kx and Win/audio rec properties are all the way up


So...how do I know if my dsp set to record from? Where exactly would I connect a peak meter in the dsp to monitor the rec levels in SF? Right now, besides the dsp being set to default, I connected 2 more peak meters. First one is connected to FXBusX 0 and 1. And the second one to the last two blue terminals RecL and RecR in xrouting. (third is connected by default to kxEQ).

As it is, the three peak meters in the dsp read exactly the same as one another, while recording. All struggling to reach -12dB, averaging about -15dB. The wave recording itself was -12 to -15dB. (No monitoring in SF.) Just for shits and giggles I tested with SF mon and without, with no difference in meter levels. I'm still getting good levels in FL with kx asio driver. Is there anything else that I can try?

Also, do I need to have every one of those plugins in the dsp. I mean, is there a simpler way to set it up for what I'm doing. Like maybe get rid of reverb and chorus. I'm not using 4,5 or 7.1 at the moment. And if I need some effects in my recordings, I can add it in FL or SF. Correct? And what about p16v and the FXMix2? I just would like to eliminate anything I do not presently have a use for, to avoid any confusion for myself. Could I safely remove those and still be able to listen and rec in stereo?

Thanks again for your help.

Russ

In the FL Studio Mixer there is a big peak meter that shows the output level, a peak plugin connected to FxBus 0/1 (when ASIO 0/1 is set as output) should show the same level. (BTW: Make sure that you are not monitoring the recording in SF).

Again, I suggest using the TestTone VST plugin to check the level (since it will be a known constant peak level).

i.e.
Like in this picture.

If the levels do not match here, then something else (maybe at the OS level (doesn't Vista have some kind of per-application volume settings? (though I do not think it should effect kX ASIO))) is modifying the volume, or maybe it is some bug related to Vista/kX (I would check the levels in the DSP using other programs as well).

The level at the RecL/RecR pins of xrouting should also show the same level, if the Wave Recording level slider is set correctly (and the other sliders on the Recording page are muted).

The Master Recording Level is done inside of epilog, so you cannot verify it with a peak plugin in the DSP, but if it is set at 100% it should be OK, and the level seen from xrouting should be the level you get in SF.

As far as the DSP config goes, of course you can simplify it. The specifics would depend on what you need (specifically (all details)), but for what you are currently doing (that I know of), you can unload prolog, p16v, FxMix2, Chorus, and Reverb.

xenomorph1138

They were all the same. I had them all side by side.


Thanks that's what I'll do next. I'll try to get the results posted by tomorrow.


Funny you should mention that cause I took some screenshots of the 3 peak meters connected to the dsp and the peak meters in FL,next to each other during the test rec but I was having problems with the site I was using to upload the images. Could you suggest a free image hosting site?



Just one more reason I should go back to using XP.


Thanks again.

Russ

I use TinyPic - Free Image Hosting, Photo Sharing & Video Hosting to host images.

Russ

Here is another picture showing levels (from the TestTone plugin) in both FL and SF.

Note that the "Monitor" checkbox in the picture (in the SF "Remote" window) is just to enable the peak meters in SF.

Also, I should mention that the basic peak meters in kX may not show the exact value, but it should be close (like within around 0.5 dB). I think the PeakX plugin from the UFX plugin pack may be a little more accurate, so you might consider using it instead. In any case, as you can see in the picture, the level out of FL is the level that I am getting in SF.

xenomorph1138

Was preoccupied all day. Just checkin' in. I'll be able to put some serious time into it tomorrow. Thanks for the tips and info. You have been a tremendous help.

xenomorph1138

Ok. Here are the links to the test results. I hope they will be self explanatory. http://i44.tinypic.com/bhlwdd.jpg and http://i41.tinypic.com/spb4ma.jpg. I started at -18dB in FL, and all three kx peaks read -30dB. Then gradually worked my way up to 0dB, at which time all three kx meters read -12dB.
FL/-12dB, kxPM/-24dB,
FL/-8dB, kxPM/-20dB,
FL/-4dB, kxPM/-16dB.
Always the difference between the two being 12. I wanted to get this posted before the day was over. I'll be working on it some more tonite.

Oh, and thanks for the info on the image hosting. Worked really well.

Russ

OK, I see it, it is consistently off by -12 dB (seemingly somewhere between FL's output and the kX DSP (so for now, we are only concerned with the level from FxBus 0/1)).

Did you check the per-application volume settings?
Change the volume of each individual application from your system tray | Vista Rewired

I am not sure that these settings should effect kX ASIO, but it is something to check.

BTW: Are you using kX version 3545b?

xenomorph1138

Thought I'ld check back this morning. I tried another test with the test tone plugin last nite after I posted. I'll explain in my next post with some more screen shots. Hopefully later today.



Yes, I did check. I just forgot to mention that yesterday. All the slider adjustments were up all the way.



That is the version I am currently using. Is there a more up to date one coming out soon?


Thanks again for your help.

xenomorph1138

This test is identical to the previous one. The only difference being that I was using the asio4all driver in FL instead of kxasio driver. I don't know if these results will help in any way. I'll let you interpet them and wait for your next post. Here is the link:http://i43.tinypic.com/2mod1cm.jpg. At no time during the test was there a signal coming from the peak meter for FXBus 0/1.

xenomorph1138

There was one thing I meant to ask. Would it not be a good idea to do the tests with the drivers that I plan to be using in each program. The problem with the Windows Classic Wave, Micrsoft Sound Mapper and Direct Sound Surround Mapper is that they don't work very well in Vista. As a matter of fact, they produce so much cracking and popping, it's like like listening to an old vinyl record that my cat was using for a scratching post. They work in XP rather well. In Vista asio4all and kx driver are the only ones that work without driving me up the wall. Anyway, kxasio with FL works. Just need to fix the present problem with the signal. Asio4all works very well in SF. So should'nt we be doing the tests with FL/kxasio and SF/asio4all? That's what I have been using. Just a thought.

Russ

Have you tested the level out of SF when using kX ASIO? I would suggest doing that as well to see if it is the same (i.e. use TestTone plugin in SF and check the level at FxBus 0/1).

You should also check kX ASIO input levels. i.e. Use the Wave Generator plugin connected to ASIO 0 on epilog, select kX ASIO 0 as input in FL or SF, and see what kind of level you get.

I am guessing that the kX Wave driver is working correctly since that is basically what ASIO4ALL uses, but you might want to double check that (both input and output). BTW: I do not know if the Wave Level slider on the Main page of kxmixer is functional (or even present) in Vista, but (if it is there) set it to 100.

It seems that kX ASIO (at least on the DSP input side) is doing an extra DIV4. I hope that someone else who is using Vista (and kX 3545b) will respond and let us know if it is the same for them, to help verify that it is a kX bug (which it seems to be).

xenomorph1138

I'm back.

No. But I will.


Ok. I won't have much time tomorrow. If I post, it will be late in the evening.

Uhmmm...,you just lost me. DIV4?? I'll try to google it.



Wave slider is not there at all. The Master Volume is the only one that shows.



Thanks for all your support.

Russ

Oops, sorry I missed this somehow...

I understand what you are saying, but if this is a bug, it would probably help to get it fixed faster giving Eugene as much information as possible (it helps to narrow down which part of the source code he should look at, etc). In any case, you should at least test kX ASIO levels (in and out) in more than one program (i.e. FL and SF). And again, it would be helpful if someone else using Vista could confirm all this.

Just do what you can, if you want to skip the Wave driver stuff, it is OK (IIRC there are some routing issues that might make testing it a little confusing, so...).

DIV4 = signal is divided by 4 = -12dB lower

Maddogg6

Why would there be anything on FXBus 0/1.... I see in FL you are using device '2/3' ?? For that you should connect the peak meter to FXBus 2/3...*unless* that is one of Wave HQ's multi-outputs. Im not sure what you have fruity set to there - assuming its set to kX ASIO 2/3 in that case use FXBus 2/3 also.

Russ

Yeah, sorry I missed that. I just figured it was the old (as in I am not sure if it is still an issue or not) routing issue with kX Wave 0/1 with Vista (so I did not look to see which device you were using since the levels on the other meters were OK).

xenomorph1138

Sorry about that. Your right. Thanks for pointing that out. I should have had a meter connected to FXBus 2/3. I think there was some kind of conflict going on with asio4all when selecting 0/1 in FL which was causing a whole system freeze, forcing me to reboot via the power button on my computer. So I selected 2/3 in FL. I will do the test over and post the results before the end of the day.



No problem. Let me know what you would like me to do.

I will try to have the results posted tonite.

Maddogg6

Seeing as you have a wave HQ also... you could try this...

FL - use kX ASIO or kX Wave 0/1
In sound forge - Use Wave HQ Recording device
On kX Mixer Master page - set 'P16V Recording Source' to '10k2 0' - This tells Wave HQ recording device to record the Front Digital Output - in other words, record what is connected to the Digital Front output of Epilog.
Just fyi - info not found in the kX Help file....
10k2 0 - is the front digital out
10k2 1 - is the digital Center LFE out
10k2 2 - is the Headphone Out.

You can do this with the default DSP - but I recommend using a simplified dsp using only a ProfFx SRC set for FXBus matching what ever device you use in FL...
If FL is using;
kX ASIO 0/1 - use FXBus 0/1
kX ASIO 2/3 - Use FXBus 2/3
I hope the patern is apparent here...
If FL is using kX Wave 0/1 - Use FXBus 0/1
If FL is using kX Wave 2/3 - Use FXBus 2/3
I hope you see another patern emerging.

So in the kX DSP you have;
ProFx:SRC > ProFx:kXlt (Digital Output - try all 'P16V Recording Source' too)
There are no volume controls for anything - so you may want to turn down your speakers. Unplug your headphones etc...

You could also try FL using Wave HQ (P16V Plugin instead of FXBus) > SF using Wave 0/1 or kX ASIO.

Maddogg6

I have another thought on this situation....

Vista changed audio significantly ..... I found this from a site for optimizing audio in Win Vista...
Windows Vista Audio Playback - Setup Guide - Benchmark
I find this interesting and possibly significant for all vista users.
I wonder if quality/performance is changed if the vista sample rate is changed between 44 and 48 khz.

First... It was my understanding that the DSP does hardware sample rate conversion to the 48 Khz we all know and may detest - as opposed to the driver doing it.

And I also know that 44Khz is pretty standard otherwise, being the sample rate for Standard Audio CD's. So its not too far fetched of an idea that win vista by default sets the default sample rates to 44Khz.

I know, these sample rates should be by passed by an application - but maybe not.

I would think this is something to look at as well.
(the Sound control panel applet part of that article I linked to above...)
I wonder what is default, and if not 48Khz - I wonder if changing it to 48Khz, what affects that would have in DAW environments, or anytime you use Wave devices.
I wonder what all circumstances does this sample rate conversion happens (or not)?

I also wonder if DirectShow filters are playing a bigger part in Vista for audio, like video filters for video have been in XP... ?? dropping hardware accelerated audio could mean more dependency on those...?? I dunno - I am completely clueless an this idea... but I do wonder if thats some 'un-seen' annoyance going on here... ??

xenomorph1138

I'm sure Russ is keeping up with you but you lost me about half way through the post before your last one. This is where I let you know how little I know about the dsp... and music in general.


Anyway here http://i39.tinypic.com/2cmkt2h.jpg is the result for my last test. This time with a peak meter on FXBus 2/3 also. Included in the pic is the dsp showing where the meters are connected and the meters are numbered correspondingly. (Note:bypassed EQ) In FL_asio4all_2/3 and in SF_windows Classic Wave_0/1. Not sure what else to include.

I'll see about getting to the test with SF, Kxasio output at FXBus 0/1.


Thanks for all the help.

Russ

Hmm, wait a second, where did you get that DSP config from? That is not the default (plus extra peak meters), is it?

Did you load an old config, from older version of driver?

Did you change anything in kX Router?

I am wondering why FxBus 2 through 9 are connected the way they are in the picture. With both of my cards, FxBus 0 through 9 are connected straight across to xrouting (i.e. 1st pin of FxBus to 1st pin of xrouting, 2nd to 2nd, 3rd to 3rd, ... etc, 10th to 10th (i.e. see this picture (BTW: I am using different skin, so ignore color differences, etc.))).