skinnie

Well I've been around for some time and I see lots of people claiming that creative only does bad procducts and have lots of issues..and bla bla bla..but why do we keep buying them?why so many people put effort in making drivers for it?I don't understand...I have an audigy2 zs and it is good..at least I think..lol..but I know that creatives uses more software and say that is hardware done...so why do so much ppl put effort on modded drivers,is there any really cards behind the so much blamed creatives?
other thing the creative domination in games is bullshit or having a creative card in games has any bennefit?
and if you had to buy a card now what do you choose?XFi?turtle beach?hda?what?

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DFI NF2 Ultra+Athlon XP-Mobile 2600+ [SP97]
2x512 Mushkin Redline Xp4000 [OCZ XTC Cooler]
Albatron 6800GT@Ultra 256mb DDR3 [VF900CU]
Terratec Aureon Space 7.1@Prodigy 7.1
Audigy 2 ZS
Logitech X-530 5.1
Sennheiser HD201

OmegaRED

If you want a soundcard to play games you either get a Creative Audigy/X-fi series or get nothing at all. There is no competition from anyone else and Creative gets game makers to design games to utilize their features. The soundcards themselves are well made but the drivers and support have always stunk.

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skinnie

and those "improvements" in games are reality or just "paper"?

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DFI NF2 Ultra+Athlon XP-Mobile 2600+ [SP97]
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Terratec Aureon Space 7.1@Prodigy 7.1
Audigy 2 ZS
Logitech X-530 5.1
Sennheiser HD201

technonerd

Also it's because of availablity, I live in small town with population 50,000. We only have Futureshop and 3 other computer stores. Those 4 store does have other crappy product and creative. The other crappy product doesn't have good 5.1 support, only creative does

I'm happy with audigy4zs

dj_stick

the only reason CL still has the market share it does is becuase it jealously holds onto it's EAX standards. They day it licenses them out (or someone comes up with a better environmental/spatialisation algorithm) is the day CL goes out of business

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Judas

i'd scream "fanboi" right now if i didn't choke on my water here.. *cough*


hercules cards produces a better overall EAX sound in various games, and supports the surround sound capabilities even better with lower cpu usages as well, good old unreal tournament classive proved that one, along with some of the more recent unreal tournaments that pushes some of the major boundries, plus the openAL sounds pretty damn good to.

Reguardless, have you used a wide variaity of onboard and other sound cards? And when i mean wide, i mean wide with in the last year of sound card tech?

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OmegaRED

Well yes sir I have. 3 onboard sound cards (2 Via, 1 Realtek), Audigy 2, and X-Fi Platinum. I'm not saying Creative is the best quality but lets face facts if you go to any comp store all they have is Creative cards and newer games are supporting X-Fi features which means if you're a gamer you go Soundblaster or nothing at all. I don't know the features of Hercules cards but all the ones I've seen on display are ancient hence I never gave them a second thought. Do they have EAX 4/5, Advanced HD and all that other crap?

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skinnie

if they are crap why to give them importance?

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Audigy 2 ZS
Logitech X-530 5.1
Sennheiser HD201

dj_stick

i think the hercules cards have upto eax 2…

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Brian48

That is correct. The old (defunct) Cirrus Logic based Herc cards only supported up to EAX 2.0 and only through an outdated Sensaura wrapper. Being a current owner of a Fortissimo III and a previous owner of a Herc GTXP and Fortissimo II, I disagree that these cards supported EAX 1.0 and 2.0 better than their Creative counterpart. When using these cards, the vast majority of games are actually better off sticking with standard DirectSound and with the EAX feature disabled. The strength of these cards, and I'll lump the TBSC into this as well, was not in gaming, but in clarity of sound and music reproduction.

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Judas

There are a few games where EAX 2.0 or lesser never seemed to work properly on the hercules, i'm not saying they worked, i'm saying that the games played better and sounded better depending on the game and what sound setup you used.

Although EAX 3.0 was "saposed" to be unsupported, i've heard from a few others that under specific game situations, with the latest drivers, that EAX3.0 would work properly.

the hercules cards are dieing, no denieing it, but they are still a great altnative.

However since RealTek launched there ALC88x series of onboard solutions, hercules has dropped significantly. And until hercules is able to somehow produce a x64 bit driver, they are officially toast apon Vista launch.

Hercules shawn the most when it game to the driver and software package, you couldn't ask for a cleaner and faster installation EVER. Even realtek can't match that.

Via's audio solutions are crap, Realtek is atm, the only onboard solution worth noting. And creative is with the latest fatal1ty card, still imo shit. I've got a whole swack of the creative and other alternative cards to handle and toy around with.

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Brian48

That's not possible. There a hardware component involved. The only way for EAX 3.0 and above to work at all with a non-Creative card is via a software work-around, of which Creative will not license. More than likely, under the game situations you've mentioned, the audio was defaulting to standard DirectSound versus failing altogether.

EAX 1.0 and 2.0, when implemented properly by the game developer, worked best on a Creative based soundcard since it did not need require the additional Sensaura solution. The problem is, EAX 1.0 and 2.0 is essentially crap.

Regarding the older Hercules cards being a viable alternative, you'd be hard pressed to find one in the US outside of a used specimen on eBay. They stopped production of all Cirrus Logic based cards years ago. I would personally not recommend a legacy product if one was buying a new piece of hardware. Despite Creative's dominance in the soundcard market, there's still a lot of other "modern" alternatives out there if you look.

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Brian48

Regarding 64bit support, you will NEVER see an updated driver set from Hercules supporting WinXP 64 or any newer Windows platform. In fact, Hercules never really wrote the drivers to begin with. They simply designed the control panel/installer and tweaked the reference drivers released by Cirrus Logic, which are even OLDER than the driver set last released by Hercules.

I think Voyetra made a valiant attempt to do something special for their TBSC/Sonic Fury cards, but in the end, they followed Cirrus Logic's recommendation to drop support altogether.

FYI, I had both version of the Herc GTXP. The older one that featured the same CS4630 DSP as that of the TBSC/Sonic Fury and the newer version featuring the "step-down" CS4624 DSP used by the Fortissimo II/III. I was able to see the gradual improvements as this product when through it's life cycle, but it could never catch up to Creative for pure EAX support since the reverb engine is so much weaker with these chips and the earlier EAX games weighted heavily on reverb tricks.

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OmegaRED

Okay...well if Hercules cards don't support newer than EAX2.0 there is no discussion. Modern games use EAX 4 and 5 and if you want to experience the most immersive sound quality you'd go with a Soundblaster card.

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pr0digal jenius

maybe I'm just an idiot and a fan...but I love my audigy 2 ZS. THe newest drivers [released a couple weeks ago] are rock solid [finally ...no more clicking or fighting with other devices


As for the software, I use the THX tuner, as well as the surround mixers and graphics EQ...but that could just be me and my 7.1 surround system in this teeny little 10'x12' room of mine

As for something else being better, this thing does 7.1, DTS, DolbyDigital EX, EAX, and everything else imaginable. I'm quite pleased with mine. I wouldn't buy a Turtle Beach if you payed me, and as for anythign else....what else is there aside from cards CL licenses out or releases under other shell companies?

OmegaRED

^ ^
What he said

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Brian48

I don't consider myself a fan since I've owned most of the various consumer level soundcards released in recent years. Although the X-Fi is my current favorite "all-arounder", I don't have any particular loyalty to any one company. I would tend to agree that starting with the "original" Audigy2, Creative began getting their act together. Their driver support, despite what the anti-Creative zealots will tell you, has been great in recent years, however it wasn't always that way. Creative earned the lumps that they have taken and many people are reluctant to go back or they are just part of the Aureal cult that is still lingering about. Anybody here remember the "Liveware" marketing strategy from the SBLive days?

The original Audigy was an improvement over the SBLive, but it had it's own share of issues, both driver and hardware related. I had up to 3 of these cards and wounded up getting rid of all them in favor of my old Philips Acoustic Edge and TBSC. I thought both of these cards were superior to anything either Creative or Hercules put out at the time. When my AE died, I (hesitantly) picked up a then "new-on-market" Audigy2 and was pleasantly surprised at how well it sounded and how stable the drivers were. The A2 was the first card in years that definitively made me regulate my TBSC to a backup role and the ZS version was even better.

That said, I have to admit one of my old favorites would be the Fortissimo III and there's a reason for the fan following. From a cost-performance perspective, it was tough to beat. Almost as good as the original Audigy in gaming and just as good as the TBSC in music, but the primary reason why I thought it was (and still is) a great sound card is because it's the only stand-alone soundcard with both an on-board DSP and optical out, which I absolutely need for my mini-disc system. I would still be using it today in my Secondary box, except there's no support for it under WinXP x64. Since I need the optical out feature, I settled on a "low-end" VIA Envy 24HT-S (Chaintech AV-710) to finally replace it. The on-board DSP was nice, but it's really not missed today if you have a relatively fast CPU.

That leads me to VIA. Unless you're a real stickler for CPU cycles, there's really nothing wrong with VIA based cards either. Sure, they had their own set of driver issues in the beginning, but they're cleared up for the most. I had the Revo 7.1 at one time so I went throught those growing pains. They sound almost good as the A2 for gaming (albeit without EAX 3.0+) and is absolutely great for music and movies. In regards to my current AV-710, I have no complaints with it what so ever under either Win2k Sp4 or WinXP 64, although I can't seem to get the optical to work under linux Fedora Core 4. Not a big deal for me since I used the Linus environment strictly for work related reasons.

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OAKsider

People put effort in making drivers for them because they are the most widely used, most popular brand of soundcards out there. Numerous models are available at any tech store for decent prices. I also think the CL drivers, especially in the past, have not been the best or most stable drivers so modders took advantage of that and made enhanced, high performance drivers. (Although the latest CL drivers are much better.)

I'm no expert in terms of how much truth and benefit is behind Creative's latest tech, and I'd definitely be interested to see a study on it. There's Xtreme Fidelity 'X-RAM', CMSS-3D, EAX 'ADVANCED HD 5.0', and the '24-bit Crystalizer' and probably a few more. I absolutely hate it when I see some marketer adding 'cool names' and bogus claims about simple things (bread??) and advertising it to death. I'd hate to see that was true with these technologies, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Most care about getting the most bang for their buck, but some go a little further to research and make sure they are spending wisely and giving it to the worthy. (Maybe also because of a limited tech budget, like me.) So if I had to buy a soundcard right now keeping everthing in mind, I would still grab a Sound Blaster X-Fi XtremeMusic. High performance in games, recreational listening, stability, features, and price. Creative just happens to be on top now, but all that could change. Even the dreaded onboard solutions are not so embarassing anymore . . .

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The_Neon_Cowboy

thier the only game in town the only big fish in the sea and their compeitiors
don't even come close they've been a favorite since the days of dos

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Azultra

That's not true. Creative "feature" is just a winged DSP powerful enough to take care of EAX and other such power-hungry audio tasks. Where most of shortsighted reviews miss the point is that those DSP are not exactly good value for money. Put the price difference between a Creative card and an "equivalent" without fatty DSP in your CPU, the (generic!) power benefit will be beyond compare; And all what the Creative ( E-MU more precisely ) DSP can do can be done by a CPU as well. So, Creative soundcards are not the only option to play games, they're bluntly the worst

Just an example : in euros, the cost difference between a Fortissimo IV and a X-Fi ExtremeMusic ? 65€. That's also :

• the cost of two Semprons 64 C'n'Q 2800+
• the difference between a Athlon 64 3800+ and a Core2Duo E6300

while Fortissimo IV has the better SQ ( much better opamps and no resampling when the DSP/effects are in use ). See the hype and the fuss ?

Judas

This is precisely the reason why alot of people simply don't know anything. Cause there blind to reality most of the time, let alone don't even bother to try and keep there options open.

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BWX

They'll pry my Fort III out of my cold dead hands. I am astounded by it still (I got it when it first came out). F Creative, but I am sure if I will probably have to buy one (an Audigy xwz123) when moving over to x64 OS.

Judas

Na BWX, trust me, If you get a motherboard with onboard realtek HD audio, you'll be impressed... Both quality and performance wise

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skinnie

I tried a asus for my girlfriend and I think it has HDA..and it seemed to me very good

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DFI NF2 Ultra+Athlon XP-Mobile 2600+ [SP97]
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Albatron 6800GT@Ultra 256mb DDR3 [VF900CU]
Terratec Aureon Space 7.1@Prodigy 7.1
Audigy 2 ZS
Logitech X-530 5.1
Sennheiser HD201

BWX

Performance? Does the Realtek HD even have an onboard DSP?

INSTG8R

It should have up to EAX 2.0 same as every other non-Creative solution.

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3DMark06

Judas

The onboard Realtek ALC882 (ALC883) or variants are excellent, there onboard sound quality is "pure". Much better then that of Creative X-FI Fata1ity series for my ears, and to my fathers ears which he's pretty damn finicky about anyways. (moreso then me, course most true musicians are anyways).

Reguardless, atm, even while running within a windows XP x32 setup, i prefer the ALC882 over the hercules Digifire 7.1 in performance and quality. BWX, trust me, if you get a motherboard that has the same HD Audio, that works off the reference drivers, you should be quite impressed.

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