Which is better DDL or DTS Connect?

scurvy

My X-fi titanium is on the way and just wondering which sounds better DDL or DTS connect??

Judas

trial and error it.. majority of the use of those is for using a digital connection to an amp.

yes it has benefits for analog as well no doubt.

I was more inclined to use DDL though.... DTS-Connect wored fine too...

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dj_stick

they are both lossy compression codecs, but DTS uses a higher bitrate, so should give a better audio quality.

Though depending on what devices is doing the decoding, chances are you're still going to get a much better audio quality from the analogue connections on that card, as the decoders in most low-mid range consumer amplifiers/speaker systems are usually pretty crap when compared to a decent computer soundcard

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Judas

the DTS/DDL options are there for enhancing or providing additional sound options for the devices...... like taking standard stereo channel sound sources and converting them into something better..

it's not so much used for decoding, it's used for re-encoding through analog... or re-encoding for digital decodeable applifiers.

AKA

take a standard coax or fiber connection, allows only 2 channel stereo, use DDL or DTS-C and volla, you get your 6 channel or less audio source converted into properly mapped 6 channel sound (if it's 6 channel source) or upconverted 2 channel.

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dj_stick

DTS/DDL is for encoding multi channel streams (ie 4.0, 5.1, 6.1, 7.1 sound) allowing it to be passed through the SPDIF medium


i think you're thinking about methods like dolby pro logic that uses matrices to pull a pseudo-surround sound signal out of a stereo medium

stereo DD/DTS is stereo, there's no "upconversion" unless your software/driver/amplifier uses pro logic or a similiar algorithm

but that's not the topic here, im summary , for your card i suspect audio quality will be like this:

Analogue > DTS > DDL

though there will be very little audible difference, unless you have a realy nice, transparent sound system

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Judas

In the case on some sound devices, the DTS-C/DDL incorporates a slightly more up to date version of Dolby Pro Logic II.. it's like 2.5 ... It also applies to analog connection, it'll convert/resample and then present through a digital connection as well as a 5.1 mode. It has a fair bit more flexibility then straight up prologic II.

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Robert McClelland

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dj_stick

the pro logic encoding is a completely seperate process to DTS/DDL - even my old SB Live! had Pro Logic

Pro-Logic - upmixes stereo sound to 4.0/5.1 sound

DTS/DDL - lossy compression codecs that compress existing multi-channel sound to allow it to fit in the bandwidth of a S/PDIF stream

they can work well together as you stated, but please don't confuse the two as a single process, they're not

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Judas

OK so considering that fact that some of the hardware i've played with comes with not only pro logic II options and DDL.... if i enabled pro logic II, yes it does a nice job of matrixing it all into 5.1 however obviously doesn't work over digital.

but enabling only DDL without enabling pro logic II present a better ability to present 2channel audio into surround sound not only over analog.. but properly over digital...

I'm sure i read somewhere of the additional enhancements it provides.

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dj_stick

DDL has nothing to do with analogue, it's sole purpose is to compress audio so it will fit over the spdif stream, ie a digital connection.

i think you really are confused atm....

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Judas

i'm trying to find the information pertaining to it.... while it's orginal design was for proper multichannel mapping over digital connection.... it has other advantages as well..

i gotta try and retrack down those documents on it....

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dj_stick

actually the original design for Dolby Digital was to compress multi-channel sound far enough that it would fit between the sprockets of cinema film, DTS has a higher bit-rate as it was stored seperately to the film

the consumer adaptation of dolby digital/DTS via SPDIF was a later development, brought on by the DVD revolution.

As for "proper multichannel mapping" - that's not really the case, for that you'd want to look at something like ADAT - 8 channels of up to 24bit/48k Uncompressed audio over an optical connection, or MADI - something like 56 channels of uncompressed audio (not sure what the max sample rate is) over a single cable, expandable with multiple connections

Dolby Digital over SPDIF really was a more slapstick measure, as SPDIF components were cheap, having existed on CD players and home stereos for some time before hand, looks like someone decided to make use of existing technology, rather than develop something new (and probably more effective).

We're only now seeing true uncompressed mulit-channel audio for consumers with blu-ray/hd-dvd, and that's ONLY if you're using the HDMI connection.

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docvino

DDL from me.

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Judas

i was stating for the DDL.... i've read up a fair bit of the purpose of the orginal DD and DTS formats..

using DDL with spidif and then using a game that uses multi channel surround, will indeed properly map to the right channel using it. Aka, if a weapon shot is saposed to come from only the front right speaker.. it does..

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dj_stick

DDL itself doesn't do any of the channel mapping, all it does is take in pre-mapped audio (from a game, or whatever else you're doing), compress it, and send it down the SPDIF connection

It's up to the source media/program to be correctly mapped and the receiver to be correctly configured aswell


The only difference between Dolby Digital and Dolby Digital Live is a marketing standpoint, a badge that certifies a soundcard will encode Dolby Digital in realtime (rather than just decode) - there is zero difference in the underlying technology

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Syndicate2083

I have to say I have been a little curious about what DDL would do for me. I currently have my computer put its onboard out via S/PDIF optical to an Onkyo 5.1 system (which sounds miles and miles better than any computer speaker system I've ever owned).

Currently, I use stuff like ffdshow to get my DD and DTS stuff to go over properly to the Onkyo, which works fantastic and sounds immensely better than PL2/Neo. Normaly computer use travels over the S/PDIF and ends up on the onkyo as PL2/Neo and sounds better than it used to but not even close to the levels i get with DD/DTS.

My thought was that it would take virtually all of my computer sound, and live en-code it over to DD/DTS via DDL/DTSC. I wonder what type of improvement this would enact, if any. My problem now is that I can 'try' to force DD and DTS for games, but normally they begin to stutter horribly (sound wise). In any event. I was hoping DDL or DTSC would step up the overall sound quality (PL2/Neo is really sub par when i got used to true DD haha).

Thoughts?

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Judas

DDL would be considerably better then prologic II for mutlichannel sound...

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Syndicate2083

That was my thinking, but I wanted to hear it from people who have experience, such as yourself, hearing it.

Any detractors from your experience with using it?

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Judas

other then a directly connect multi channel analog setup being your best option unless you can do it via HDMI...... no

DDL/DTS-C is far better then sending a 2 channel sample to the amp and letting it do the pl2 matrixing.

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Syndicate2083

Sweet. And no, I've no option to hook the PC sound up to the onkyo via HDMI. The migration to the single Toslink cable has made a noticeable sound difference compared to my previous computer speaker setups though. It is absoutely more crisp and clear with that setup.

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Judas

no doubt..

but some amplifiers have analog 6, 7 or 8 channel input (each RCA connection is labled by it's connection type, sub woofer, center, right left ,etc.) If those are on the amp, all you'd need to do is go out and grab some decent quality (you don't need MONSTER CABLES... they are rediculiously over priced) cables that have the male 3.5mm stereo jack on one end that split into seperate twin RCA males on the other, the longest of which is i wouldn't recommend going over 15ft but you can get some pretty long cables. If you have only 6 channels, you'd only need 3 of these cables, and then you'd only have to correctly plug them in, red is right, white left.... and just follow the pattern of your amp because usually if the right and left speakers plug in a certain way, then the rest will go down the line in the same pattern with which ever color on one side and the other on the other.

That's just another alternative... yes it's more wires.... i agree.. but i figured i'd throw it out there

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Syndicate2083

What kind of sound improvement does it provide over Toslink? I am just starting to get more into the audio side of my setup, and had thought (aparently mistakenly) that something like Toslink would be the best sound quality vs the 'rca' connectors on the board/card in the comp?

Also, I agree, monster stuff is junk. Most of their cables don't meet the specs they purport either. Reverse engineering ftw!

Anyyyywho.. Yes I could most certainly connect my setup as you mention. I just thought it would have been 'worse' as no one explained why that wouldn't be so to me.

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Judas

Well considering the fact that Toslink via Coax or Fiber requires the sound to be compressed into a lossy format to make it to the amp and then uncompressed with loss of quality to be produced IF the your using DTS-C/DDL or any format for multi channel output, and analog doesn't is one thing.

See with a Fiber or Coax digital connection, it works in the same way of an Wav - MP3 kind of thing works. With a raw wave file, trying to transmit that over a dialup connection essentially just wouldn't work, you'd be buffering for hours and then only getting a split second of audio before having to buffer again, where as if you compress the hell out of it, send it down the connection being able to sustain a playable format without skips and jumps, and letting the other end do the best it can as uncompressing it for your ears. That kinda what we are dealing with for those type of digital connections when running more then 2 channels.

Toslink Fiber/Coax digital connections were never designed for more then stereo orginally. You can get pretty decent raw stereo out of it, but multichannel REQUIRES compression.

Analog doesn't, it's straight up as raw as your sound card or computer could possibly produce. This is where a good high quality sound card like auzentech's would be the winning factor when pumping out to a high quality stereo via analog. You can crank it to 8 channel, 24bit 192khz format and it doesn't have to compress anything to make it to the amp and the amp doesn't have to do anything to pump it out. Course analog can be easily affected by noise or interferance..... while digital connections have the advantages of avoiding this.

This is one of the major reason of HDMI's creation, in order to provide a true Digital, Raw multichannel audio solution without compression, it eliminates the issues presented by analog or digital coax/fiber but has it's advantages of both as well.

So it kinda works like this in the terms of providing the best audio for multichannel surround sound...

Analog 2 channel stero (worst argueably maybe)
Fiber/Coax Toslink via spidif uncompressed raw digital (better argueably)
Hdmi Digital raw (better argueably)

Fiber/Coax Toslink via SPIDIF Compressed Multi Channel (worst)
Analog direct multi channel (Good)
HDMI Digital Multi Channel (BEST)

If it's indeed accurate, i beleive the newest HDMI revision allows for RAW PCM 11.2 Surround sound to be transmitted over the cable Digitally. Obviously it's ALOT nicer to have a single cable for that instead of having 13 Analog wires running from any system to the amp lol....

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Syndicate2083

Indeed. And thanks for the nice detailed reply!

Ever since I walked into a random store and saw the onkyo 5.1 system onsale from 500 for 200 I have been very very impressed with the difference. If switching from my Toslink to the RCA w/adapter for the receiver/amp will be superior I certainly will do that. Ill even be able to put my x-fi platinum back in there. That should help too.

Awesome, thanks allot.

Anyone else that want's to weigh in or has any other suggestions please feel free, I am really interested in learning what I can about all this

-Syn

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scurvy

Alright I got my X-fi up and running for a few days hooked upto my Z-5500 set and its definitely a MAJOR improvement over onboard. With that i used to have it hooked up via optical but with the X-fi analogue sounds much better than digital, simply incredible.

this crystalizer, CMSS and Equalizer combo is KILLER.

Now i use the Optical link only when watching Dolby Digital or DTS 5.1 encoded movies.

Syndicate2083

Yes I was very pleased with my x-fi before hand, but swapped to onboard for the optical port that it had as I was having trouble locating my jumpers and stuff for the x-fi card.

Ill have to get some cables to string my RCA ports to the onkyo and put her through her paces again. shweet.

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scurvy

u swapped an X-fi for onboard? u on crack boy?

Syndicate2083

Well, like I said, I couldnt find the ide cable to connect the card to the front load component to use the remote/optical out on that. and I didnt have a jumper to pass the toslink from the mobo to the card for processing, so at the time I did yup.

Actually the onboard quality has been pretty stellar, not quite as good, especially with what the x-fi is capable of doing, but my CPU usage didnt really increase much at all and there wasnt much of a drop off in game frames. Overall the xfx 790i onboard has been excellent.

I was debating sticking with x-fi or going with an x-fi chip on an auzentech. Though Ht-Omega caught my eye as well.

Anyone have experience using HT-Omega with DDL/DTSC - DD/DTS?

I wonder which of the three will be my best bet.

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Lowfat

Both analog and HDMI can do multichannel LPCM. However for a computer solution most HDMI solutions can't. Only the Nvidia 730i boards, the Auzen HD Home Theater, and the Xonar HDAV1.3 can at the moment.

If you are going with a high end soundcard it almost always is better to use analog over digital. Unless you are using a receiver worth $1K+. Then the DAC's and opamps will likely be better in the receiver than they are on the soundcard.

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OmegaRED

DTS Connect is terrible for games and movies because of the delay in processing, lip syncing will be way off and it'll affect your gaming experience especially online. For music though, it sounds pretty damn good since the delay doesn't matter.

I prefer Dolby Digital Live because the delay is far less noticeable. When my headphones are on and DDL is coming out of my speakers it sounds more like an echo than a delay. I found gaming worked great and the sound field was accurately reproduced in GTAIV and Fallout 3.

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