Audigy 2. Can you swap front/rear channels?

`jaw · Oct 1, 2003, 08:31 PM

Hi.

I have a system running win2k and xp (dualboot). My 2k machine has KXdrivers installed and uses swapped front/rear channels to get the best quality. Now that gives me problem in XP as I wanted to use it with creative drivers for games/dvd-audio (to use eax3 and the dvd-audio player). I cant find any way to switch the front/rear and that leaves me a completely usesless os. I could turn of swap option in kx but as I LOVE music and really wanna get the most out of it, I´d ratehr keep it on.

Now I hope you guys will tell me that I can force the creative driver to swap the front/rear channels.

RIV@NVX · Oct 6, 2003, 10:17 AM

I doubt, at least there is no way that I am aware of...

`jaw · Oct 6, 2003, 03:11 PM

yeah that sux. Wonder why it aint present. Funny that no1 else have asked it earlier. Now I have to chose enjoy both eax 1/2/3 and the dvd-audio player in creative buth not get the most out of my soundcard or stuck to directsound3d (for the moment) and have to wait for a good dvd-audio player (and spend money for it).

evil_one · Oct 6, 2003, 10:51 PM

Swapping channels on the A2 is pointless since all outputs are of the same quality and come form the same crystal AC97 CODEC.

`jaw · Oct 7, 2003, 05:08 AM

Not exactly the same acording to the kx drivers FAQ. Can you get proof for it and then pass it to them so they can change it then?

RIV@NVX · Oct 7, 2003, 08:16 AM

Audigy1/2 doesn't use AC97 for outputs, but this device is still connected to the outputs, so it's recommended to swap it, unless you have Audigy2 Platinum eX which doesn't have AC97 at all.

`jaw · Oct 7, 2003, 03:07 PM

Ok. Well have swapped so I can dualboot (cant comment on quality as I swapped speakers at ssame time). Does any1 know if you can download DVD-audio samples of the net (preferbly both 192/24 stereo and 96/24 5.1)?

evil_one · Oct 12, 2003, 07:27 PM

Audigy2 uses an 8-channel 24bit 192kHz Crystal DAC (CS4382, for ALL Audigy2 versions, including the Platinum Ex) for all outputs.

http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDatasheet/cs4382-2.pdf

There is no other DAC on the PCB, and the analog sections for all channels are identical, so there will be no significant difference between the channels (those that exist can be attributed to the fact that no components are created equal).

The normal Audigy2 actually has the Crystal DAC and a Sigmatel AC97 CODEC.
"The Sigmatel STAC9721 AC'97 codec is used for servicing various internal analog connectors and a mic-in."

http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/...gy2/index.html
http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/...-ex/index.html

evil_one · Oct 12, 2003, 07:42 PM

The same goes for the Audigy1.

"6-channel DAC Philips UDA1328T on 6 linear-outs and ADC Philips UDA1361T for signal sampling from a linear-in. The stereo AC'97-codec Creative CT1297 is used for mixing of all analog signals from card's internal connectors."

EDIT: Actually, outputs 1 and 2 of this DAC are of better quality than the rest.

http://www.digit-life.com/articles/a...mex/index.html

On the Live series cards, a 2 channel DAC (Philips UDA1330A for Live and UDA1334A on the Live! 5.1) was used for the rear outputs, all other outputs were handled by a Sigmatel AC97 CODEC.

EDIT: Yes, you will get better quality by swapping the channels on the A1 because, as RIV@NVX said, the AC97 CODEC is also wired to the fronts.

If the Sigmatel on the normal A2 is also wired to the front outputs, well, that would be very foolish of them.

`jaw · Oct 12, 2003, 07:53 PM

confused. The last time I checked KX it said that the same that aplied to 5.1 also goes for audigy 1/2 but arent as crucial

Taken from KX FAQ

"The Audigy and Audigy2 cards use both AC97 and I2S Codecs for Front output and this theoretically gives you rather good Front quality. But nevertheless, the AC97 Codec causes some distortion and thus the same procedure is recommended for use with Audigy / Audigy2 cards as well."

So are they lying or now Im really confused

evil_one · Oct 12, 2003, 08:03 PM

"Fortunately, Creative could refrain from copying very beautiful figures from the DAC's certificate. And the specification for the Audigy2 contains the parameters measured with the AudioPrecision system.
SNR, front and rear channels (for signal level of 1..2 V) = 102..106 dB A, for the other channels = 86..90 dB A. "

The note on the KX site could be right if the front channels are also wired to the AC97 on the A2, the text above (form digit life) proves otherwise though.

blah, I should have done more research before posting myself :P

<watch this space for more edits :P>

evil_one · Oct 13, 2003, 01:28 PM

All this talk has inspired me to write this:
http://www.forgotten-realms.cfl.pl/o...l_sigmatel.htm

Will have to test what are the effects on quality :P

`jaw · Oct 13, 2003, 05:24 PM

Hope you finish it of soon would love to get some good testing done so I can do the final descision (as my speaker system keeps getting upgrades).

PLZ post a reply here and Ill read it asap.

And thnx for the responses so far.

evil_one · Oct 13, 2003, 07:03 PM

This isn't the same situation as on the Audigy... well, similar, but still... erm, if I could get my hands on a A2 board I could definitely say if the sigmatel has got anything to do with the matter... If it's connected in a similar fashion as on the Prodigy/Aureon, then it won't have any effect on front outputs, unless of course the internal analog connectors are enabled. If it's connected in the same way as on the Audigy1 though, then it could indeed have a negative effect.

evil_one · Oct 13, 2003, 07:44 PM

RMAA points out that this mod is pointless (at least in case of the Aureon/Prodigy implementation).

evil_one · Nov 8, 2003, 01:42 PM

"The Audigy2-based boards use AC97 codec for recording only. That's why the default signal routing is different compared to 10k1 and 10k2 (Audigy) boards. The AC97 codec outputs are always muted, thus, not affecting front/rear/center+lfe outputs. The 'i2s codec' shown on the diagram above (marked '10k2 only') is used for all the analog outputs."

http://kxproject.lugosoft.com/help/signaflow.htm

mmk?

`jaw · Nov 8, 2003, 02:25 PM

Oh. nice an update. So I gues they should disable the swap on pure audigy2 boards then as it will be uselles. Now all I need is any way of trying the 24bit recording and my audigy2 should be at its full potential.

RIV@NVX · Nov 10, 2003, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by `jaw
Oh. nice an update. So I gues they should disable the swap on pure audigy2 boards then as it will be uselles. Now all I need is any way of trying the 24bit recording and my audigy2 should be at its full potential.

You can disable "Swap front and Rear" yourself in kX mixer.

`jaw · Nov 10, 2003, 06:35 PM

I know. But why have that option activated at first for audigy2 card if it doesnt improve anything?

Oct 1, 2003, 08:31 PM	#1
`jaw DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: sweden Posts: 72 Rep Power: 0	Audigy 2. Can you swap front/rear channels? Hi. I have a system running win2k and xp (dualboot). My 2k machine has KXdrivers installed and uses swapped front/rear channels to get the best quality. Now that gives me problem in XP as I wanted to use it with creative drivers for games/dvd-audio (to use eax3 and the dvd-audio player). I cant find any way to switch the front/rear and that leaves me a completely usesless os. I could turn of swap option in kx but as I LOVE music and really wanna get the most out of it, I´d ratehr keep it on. Now I hope you guys will tell me that I can force the creative driver to swap the front/rear channels.

Oct 6, 2003, 10:17 AM	#2
RIV@NVX Freedom is a feature. Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Croatia, Rijeka Posts: 4,476 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	I doubt, at least there is no way that I am aware of... __________________ -- Vedran

Oct 6, 2003, 03:11 PM	Thread Starter #3
`jaw DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: sweden Posts: 72 Rep Power: 0	funny yeah that sux. Wonder why it aint present. Funny that no1 else have asked it earlier. Now I have to chose enjoy both eax 1/2/3 and the dvd-audio player in creative buth not get the most out of my soundcard or stuck to directsound3d (for the moment) and have to wait for a good dvd-audio player (and spend money for it). __________________ Nothing to se here people, MOVE ALONG!

Oct 7, 2003, 05:08 AM	Thread Starter #5
`jaw DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: sweden Posts: 72 Rep Power: 0	Not exactly the same acording to the kx drivers FAQ. Can you get proof for it and then pass it to them so they can change it then? __________________ Nothing to se here people, MOVE ALONG!

Oct 7, 2003, 08:16 AM	#6
RIV@NVX Freedom is a feature. Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Croatia, Rijeka Posts: 4,476 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	Audigy1/2 doesn't use AC97 for outputs, but this device is still connected to the outputs, so it's recommended to swap it, unless you have Audigy2 Platinum eX which doesn't have AC97 at all. __________________ -- Vedran

Oct 6, 2003, 10:51 PM	#4
evil_one DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 109 Rep Power: 0	Swapping channels on the A2 is pointless since all outputs are of the same quality and come form the same crystal AC97 CODEC.

Oct 7, 2003, 03:07 PM	Thread Starter #7
`jaw DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: sweden Posts: 72 Rep Power: 0	Ok. Well have swapped so I can dualboot (cant comment on quality as I swapped speakers at ssame time). Does any1 know if you can download DVD-audio samples of the net (preferbly both 192/24 stereo and 96/24 5.1)? __________________ Nothing to se here people, MOVE ALONG!

Oct 12, 2003, 07:27 PM	#8
evil_one DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 109 Rep Power: 0	Audigy2 uses an 8-channel 24bit 192kHz Crystal DAC (CS4382, for ALL Audigy2 versions, including the Platinum Ex) for all outputs. http://www.cirrus.com/en/pubs/proDatasheet/cs4382-2.pdf There is no other DAC on the PCB, and the analog sections for all channels are identical, so there will be no significant difference between the channels (those that exist can be attributed to the fact that no components are created equal). The normal Audigy2 actually has the Crystal DAC and a Sigmatel AC97 CODEC. "The Sigmatel STAC9721 AC'97 codec is used for servicing various internal analog connectors and a mic-in." http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/...gy2/index.html http://www.digit-life.com/articles2/...-ex/index.html

Oct 12, 2003, 07:42 PM	#9
evil_one DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 109 Rep Power: 0	The same goes for the Audigy1. "6-channel DAC Philips UDA1328T on 6 linear-outs and ADC Philips UDA1361T for signal sampling from a linear-in. The stereo AC'97-codec Creative CT1297 is used for mixing of all analog signals from card's internal connectors." EDIT: Actually, outputs 1 and 2 of this DAC are of better quality than the rest. http://www.digit-life.com/articles/a...mex/index.html On the Live series cards, a 2 channel DAC (Philips UDA1330A for Live and UDA1334A on the Live! 5.1) was used for the rear outputs, all other outputs were handled by a Sigmatel AC97 CODEC. EDIT: Yes, you will get better quality by swapping the channels on the A1 because, as RIV@NVX said, the AC97 CODEC is also wired to the fronts. If the Sigmatel on the normal A2 is also wired to the front outputs, well, that would be very foolish of them. Last edited by evil_one; Oct 12, 2003 at 07:57 PM.

Oct 12, 2003, 07:53 PM	Thread Starter #10
`jaw DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: sweden Posts: 72 Rep Power: 0	confused. The last time I checked KX it said that the same that aplied to 5.1 also goes for audigy 1/2 but arent as crucial Taken from KX FAQ "The Audigy and Audigy2 cards use both AC97 and I2S Codecs for Front output and this theoretically gives you rather good Front quality. But nevertheless, the AC97 Codec causes some distortion and thus the same procedure is recommended for use with Audigy / Audigy2 cards as well." So are they lying or now Im really confused __________________ Nothing to se here people, MOVE ALONG!

Oct 12, 2003, 08:03 PM	#11
evil_one DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 109 Rep Power: 0	"Fortunately, Creative could refrain from copying very beautiful figures from the DAC's certificate. And the specification for the Audigy2 contains the parameters measured with the AudioPrecision system. SNR, front and rear channels (for signal level of 1..2 V) = 102..106 dB A, for the other channels = 86..90 dB A. " The note on the KX site could be right if the front channels are also wired to the AC97 on the A2, the text above (form digit life) proves otherwise though. blah, I should have done more research before posting myself :P <watch this space for more edits :P>

Oct 13, 2003, 01:28 PM	#12
evil_one DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 109 Rep Power: 0	All this talk has inspired me to write this: http://www.forgotten-realms.cfl.pl/o...l_sigmatel.htm Will have to test what are the effects on quality :P

Oct 13, 2003, 05:24 PM	Thread Starter #13
`jaw DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: sweden Posts: 72 Rep Power: 0	Hope you finish it of soon would love to get some good testing done so I can do the final descision (as my speaker system keeps getting upgrades). PLZ post a reply here and Ill read it asap. And thnx for the responses so far.

Oct 13, 2003, 07:03 PM	#14
evil_one DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 109 Rep Power: 0	This isn't the same situation as on the Audigy... well, similar, but still... erm, if I could get my hands on a A2 board I could definitely say if the sigmatel has got anything to do with the matter... If it's connected in a similar fashion as on the Prodigy/Aureon, then it won't have any effect on front outputs, unless of course the internal analog connectors are enabled. If it's connected in the same way as on the Audigy1 though, then it could indeed have a negative effect.

Oct 13, 2003, 07:44 PM	#15
evil_one DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 109 Rep Power: 0	RMAA points out that this mod is pointless (at least in case of the Aureon/Prodigy implementation).

Nov 8, 2003, 01:42 PM	#16
evil_one DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 109 Rep Power: 0	"The Audigy2-based boards use AC97 codec for recording only. That's why the default signal routing is different compared to 10k1 and 10k2 (Audigy) boards. The AC97 codec outputs are always muted, thus, not affecting front/rear/center+lfe outputs. The 'i2s codec' shown on the diagram above (marked '10k2 only') is used for all the analog outputs." http://kxproject.lugosoft.com/help/signaflow.htm mmk?

Nov 8, 2003, 02:25 PM	Thread Starter #17
`jaw DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: sweden Posts: 72 Rep Power: 0	Oh. nice an update. So I gues they should disable the swap on pure audigy2 boards then as it will be uselles. Now all I need is any way of trying the 24bit recording and my audigy2 should be at its full potential.

Nov 10, 2003, 06:35 PM	Thread Starter #19
`jaw DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: sweden Posts: 72 Rep Power: 0	. I know. But why have that option activated at first for audigy2 card if it doesnt improve anything? __________________ Nothing to se here people, MOVE ALONG!