No sound or continuous beep w or w/o original sound on top on EMU APS

Eugene Gavrilov

>> That's a good start I guess

I hope most of the users that are far from programming understood 't was a joke

unfortunately, at the moment there are no clues / ideas concerning the 'beeping issue', except, probably, ACPI/PCI stuff and Win98SE/WinXP difference...

/Eugene

Nappylady

Hey, I haven't read the entire thread, but I had a question...

Has anyone thought of asking Creative? I mean, their guys had to write their drivers from scratch at some point too, so they probably ran into the same issue sometime...

It might be worth a shot...

XDread

Thanks! I'll look into it!

Update:
Now I have read it and must say that I don't recognise the situation. My system runs just as smoothly as I expect it to do, no glitches or anything, I can play 5 WA music pieces at the same time as multiple video streams with no glitches. I can play 8+ audio streams at the same time at 128kb/s with no problems, games run smoothly.

I don't think that this article describes anything that has to do with my problem with the beeping either. BUT! I have seen a lot of people complaining about things that may have anything to do with whats discussed in the article in this forum, so it may be interesting for some!

XDread

Hehe...

Rox271

Yes, you're correct except that Eugene suspected the beep issue may have something to see with PCI latency and since your BIOS doesn't allow to setup PCI latency, you may be interested in using Power strip.
Anyway, I did that on my PC and haven't noticed any particular improvement.

XDread

Yeah, but reading that text I got the impression that PCI latency had nothing to do with this bug, but perhaps there are some other aspects that I am unaware of that also has to do with PCI latency? I'll try to investigate it further!

Eugene Gavrilov

the issue we are solving can be related to practically anything...
it seems to be a minor -hardware- issue that is 'triggered' by not-100%-correct driver code

the possible hardware reason might be: unstable PCI power (power supply unit?), unstable connection in the PCI slot of the motherboard, invalid memory timings, special 'chipset optimizations' (such as 'high performance' setting), USB keyboard / mouse, TV Tuner or Video Card, resource sharing ... etc, etc, etc,

the possible OS/software reasons: incorrect CPU/PCI initialization, incorrect memory management, shadow memory enabled (BIOS), background applications / services, ....

I haven't experienced any similar bugs since 3501, so, this issue 100% isn't "software-only"

I think it is critical to prove if the issue doesn't exist under Win98SE
(however, even if it doesn't, this doesn't prove the issue is 100% software-related...)

once again, what is your software/hardware configuration? [please be as detailed as possible]

/Eugene

Nappylady

Windows 2000.5.00.2195, SP2.
Duron 1300 on MSI K7N2G, which runs the NForce2 Chipset.

At present there are two kX cards in the computer, both Live! 5.1's, a SB0100, and a SB0220. The 220 is in the first PCI slot under the AGP card (which is a GF2MX) and the 100 is in the next PCI slot. All the rest are empty.

kX Version: 5, 10, 00, 3533 - debug

At present, the SB0100 experiences the problem intermittently, and since moving some cards around, I have not been able to get *any* sound but beeping (a different beep), and MIDI synth, from the SB0220. This is depressing.

I can't think of anything else to post... what else might be useful?

Eugene Gavrilov

>> K7N2G

I have k7n2 Delta-L. My previous motherboard was Soltek 75drv5...

>> Nappylady

are you sure you are not running CPUIdle or similar tools? [review the FAQ for details]

/Eugene

Eugene Gavrilov

btw, has anybody tried resetting BIOS settings? (such as DDR memory settings?)

/E

Rox271

Here is what I get using SiSoftware Sandra.
Anything particular I should focus on?

Generic information :
===============
Processor
Model : Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 1300MHz
Speed : 1.30GHz
Performance Rating : PR1426 (estimated)
Type : Standard
L2 On-board Cache : 256kB ECC Synchronous ATC

Mainboard
Bus(es) : AGP PCI USB i2c/SMBus
MP Support : No
MP APIC : No
System BIOS : Dell Computer Corporation XP2
Mainboard : Dell Computer Corporation Dimension 8100
Total Memory : 383MB RDRAM

Chipset 1
Model : Dell Computer Corp 82850 Host-Hub Interface Bridge Device (A2-step)
Front Side Bus Speed : 4x 100MHz (400MHz data rate)
Total Memory : 384MB RDRAM
Memory Bus Speed : 2x 400MHz (800MHz data rate)

Video System
Monitor/Panel : Dell P991
Adapter : NVIDIA GeForce2 MX/MX 400

Physical Storage Devices
Removable Drive : Floppy disk drive
Hard Disk : QUANTUM FIREBALLP AS20.5
Hard Disk : SAMSUNG SP4004H
CD-ROM/DVD : LG CD-RW CED-8120B
CD-ROM/DVD : _NEC DV-5800A

Peripherals
Serial/Parallel Port(s) : 2 COM / 1 LPT
USB Controller/Hub : Intel(r) 82801BA/BAM USB Universal Host Controller - 2442
USB Controller/Hub : Intel(r) 82801BA/BAM USB Universal Host Controller - 2444
USB Controller/Hub : USB Root Hub
USB Controller/Hub : USB Root Hub
Keyboard : Dell Enhanced QuietKey PS2 with DellTouch
Mouse : PS/2 Compatible Mouse

MultiMedia Device(s)
Device : kX 10k1 Audio - Model CT4780 Value
Device : kX 10k1 Audio - Game Port

Communication Device(s)
Device : Olitec V92 Ready Data,Fax #2

Printers and Faxes
Model : Canon LBP-810

Operating System(s)
Windows System : Microsoft Windows XP Professional Version 5.01.2600 Service Pack 1

Network Adapter(s)
Network Drivers Enabled : Yes

ACPI INFOS:
=========

ACPI BIOS
Version : 1.00
Manufacturer : DELL
Revision : 0.05
MP APIC : No
SCI ACPI IRQ : 9

APM System Status
AC Line Status : On-Line
Battery Status : No Battery

SBLive Infos:
==========
Device Information
Device Type : Audio Multimedia Device
Device ID : bus 2, device 9, function 0
Windows Device Name : kX 10k1 Audio - Model CT4780 Value
OEM Device Name : Creative Labs EMU10K1 Audio Chipset (SB Live!)
OEM Hardware ID : FUN_0, VEN_1102, DEV_0002, REV_0A
Device Name : Creative Labs CT4780 SBLive! Value
Product ID : VEN_1102, DEV_8022
Revision : A / 11 (10)

Power Management Features
Version : 1.00
Supports Clock Slow-down : Yes
Supports D1 PM State : Yes
Supports D2 PM State : Yes
Supports PME# : No
Supports PME Clock : No

Device Capabilities
Latency Timer : 152 clk
I/O port resources : Yes
Memory resources : No
Bus Master Capable : Yes
Special Cycle Recognition : No
Memory Write & Invalidate : No
VGA Palette Snoop : No
Parity Error Response : No
Address/Data Stepping : No
System Error Line : Yes
Fast back-to-back Transactions : No
Detects Parity Errors : No
Supports System Error Line : No
Supports Parity Line : No
User Defined Format : No
66MHz Bus Support : No
New Capability List : Yes
Device Select Timing : Medium
Multi-Function Device : Yes
Header : 00
Interface : 00

Hardware Resources
I/O Range : 0000ECE0
Irq. No. : 10
INT Pin : A#
Dynamic Management : Yes

Video:
=====
Device Information
Device Type : VGA Video Adapter
Device ID : bus 1, device 0, function 0
Windows Device Name : NVIDIA GeForce2 MX/MX 400
OEM Device Name : Nvidia Corp GeForce2 MX/MX 400 [NV11]
OEM Hardware ID : FUN_0, VEN_10DE, DEV_0110, REV_B2
Device Name : Nvidia Corp GeForce2 MX/MX 400 [NV11]
Product ID : VEN_10DE, DEV_004A
Revision : L / 3 (178)

Power Management Features
Version : 2.00
Supports Clock Slow-down : Yes
Supports D1 PM State : No
Supports D2 PM State : No
Supports PME# : No
Supports PME Clock : No

AGP Capabilities
Version : 2.00
Command Queue Length : 32
Fast-Writes Support : Yes
Over 4GB Addressing Support : No
Side Band Support : No
Data Transfer Modes Support : 1x 2x 4x

Device Capabilities
Latency Timer : 80 clk
I/O port resources : Yes
Memory resources : Yes
Bus Master Capable : Yes
Special Cycle Recognition : No
Memory Write & Invalidate : No
VGA Palette Snoop : No
Parity Error Response : No
Address/Data Stepping : No
System Error Line : No
Fast back-to-back Transactions : No
Detects Parity Errors : No
Supports System Error Line : No
Supports Parity Line : No
User Defined Format : No
66MHz Bus Support : Yes
New Capability List : Yes
Device Select Timing : Medium
Multi-Function Device : No
Header : 00
Interface : 00

Hardware Resources
Memory Range : FD000000
Memory Range : F0000000
Irq. No. : 3
INT Pin : A#
Dynamic Management : Yes

Eugene Gavrilov

>> Latency Timer : 152 clk

was it your manual setting?

how about installing Win98SE? [just for testing]

any special settings in your BIOS? [advanced chipset configuration?]
does resetting BIOS settings to 'Setup defaults' solve the problem?

try to change the latency timer to '32 clk'?..

-=-=- just for reference (haven't analyzed it yet) -=-=-

my E-mu APS set-up:
--------------------------------
Device Information
Device Type : Audio Multimedia Device
Device ID : bus 1, device 8, function 0
Windows Device Name : kX 10k1 Audio - Model APS
OEM Device Name : Creative Labs EMU10K1 Audio Chipset (SB Live!)
OEM Hardware ID : FUN_0, VEN_1102, DEV_0002, REV_04
Product Device Name : Creative Labs E-mu APS
Product Hardware ID : VEN_1102, DEV_4001
Revision / Stepping : A / 5 (4)

Power Management Features
Version : 1.00
Supports Clock Slow-down : Yes
Supports D1 PM State : No
Supports D2 PM State : No
Supports PME# : No
Supports PME Clock : No

Device Capabilities
Latency Timer : 32 clocks
I/O Access : Yes
Memory Access : No
Bus Master Capable : Yes
Special Cycle Recognition : No
Memory Write & Invalidate : No
VGA Palette Snoop : No
Parity Error Response : No
Address/Data Stepping : No
System Error Line : No
Fast back-to-back Transactions : No
Detects Parity Errors : No
Supports System Error Line : No
Supports Parity Line : No
User Defined Format : No
PCI 66MHz Bus Support : No
New Capability List : Yes
Device Select Timing : Medium
Multi-Function Device : Yes
Header Type : 00
Programming Interface : 00

Hardware Resources
I/O Port : 0000C800
IRQ Line : 10
INT Pin : A#
Dynamic Management : Yes

--------------------
my audigy2 set-up
--------------------
Device Information
Device Type : Audio Multimedia Device
Device ID : bus 1, device A, function 0
Windows Device Name : Creative SB Audigy
OEM Device Name : Creative Labs EMU10K2 Audio Chipset (SB Audigy)
OEM Hardware ID : FUN_0, VEN_1102, DEV_0004, REV_04
Product Device Name : Creative Labs EMU10K2 Audio Chipset (SB Audigy)
Product Hardware ID : VEN_1102, DEV_1005
Revision / Stepping : A / 5 (4)

Power Management Features
Version : 2.00
Supports Clock Slow-down : Yes
Supports D1 PM State : Yes
Supports D2 PM State : Yes
Supports PME# : No
Supports PME Clock : No

Device Capabilities
Latency Timer : 32 clocks
I/O Access : Yes
Memory Access : No
Bus Master Capable : Yes
Special Cycle Recognition : No
Memory Write & Invalidate : No
VGA Palette Snoop : No
Parity Error Response : No
Address/Data Stepping : No
System Error Line : No
Fast back-to-back Transactions : No
Detects Parity Errors : No
Supports System Error Line : No
Supports Parity Line : No
User Defined Format : No
PCI 66MHz Bus Support : No
New Capability List : Yes
Device Select Timing : Medium
Multi-Function Device : Yes
Header Type : 00
Programming Interface : 00

Hardware Resources
I/O Port : 0000D000
IRQ Line : 11
INT Pin : A#
Dynamic Management : Yes

-=-=-=-=-
[advanced sandra stuff]
what is your 'config space access mechanism'? [generic -> interface]


/Eugene

Rox271

I cannot change it in the BIOS.
I used the tool PowerStrip but didn't notice any change. What is the best way to change that setting?

Need time and HD space to do that

The BIOS settings are actually quite poor...

Will try that later but I'm afraid of messing the IRQ setup and other things and not being able to boot anymore.
Will need to do some backups B4 that.
Again, need precious time...

System Buses
AGP Bus(es) : 1
PCI Bus(es) : 2
Interface Version : 2.20

Interface Properties
Config space access mechanism 1 support : Yes
Config space access mechanism 2 support : No
Cycle generation mechanism 1 support : No
Cycle generation mechanism 2 support : No

Eugene Gavrilov

you know, a very strange (and fun) thing

after playing with Sandra and system information utilities (such as bios / chipset detectors) I've ... reproduced the bug you're experiencing!
(that is, I heard the 'looped' beep during 32 pause/resume cycles of WinAmp)

moreover, after re-running Sandra's 'PCI info' for some time, I managed to get the beeping sound once again
[btw, I used Audigy2Ex]

however, after reboot the bug became completely unreproducible...

before running Sandra I tried several motherboard utilities (that were bundled with it) -- such as LiveUpdate etc.. (they usually try to access PCI bus, SMB bus etc.. in order to get the BIOS revision/date/version and other stuff)

so, the problem seems to be [really] PCI-related and is triggered by [simultaneous?] PCI (re)configuration...

could you please test if running Sandra influences the bug: open 'System Summary', 'Mainboard information', 'PCI&AGP Cardbus info'
also let me know if you have any utilities running (such as hardware monitors / temperature sensors...

/Eugene

Rox271

That’s interesting. I did play with Sandra but since the beep occurs randomly and quite often, it is hard to say if Sandra is the cause.
I noticed that the beep only occurs after clicking on the Play button or immediately at the beginning of a loop (using the Win media player repeat option). Everything is ok whatever I do using Sandra until win media player loops.

So we may have a better idea of what happens and when.

WHEN
Just when a client application starts playing.
We got the red strip shifting to the right in the kx so called spectrum analyzer plenty of mysterious things happening in the kx driver and... beep...

WHAT
For some reasons (PCI bus busy?) the audio card doesn’t properly receive all the information sent from the kx driver.

Potential fixes :
1. Programmatically reduce the audio card PCI latency during the driver init.
I noticed that my SBLive has the highest PCI latency. Got no idea about how the inital SB Live PCI latency is chosen (may be the SBLive is asking for this value during the BIOS init?)

2. Implement a safe hand shake with the audio card (don’t know how?). Would you have a particularly heavy communication with the card when the driver starts playing a voice? May be this could only be implemented when the voice starts playing in order to save the overall driver performance?

Again, just looking for clues.
Xdread, have you checked the PCI latency for audio cards in your PCs? Looks like Eugene has a very good latency which could explain why he doesn't experience the beep issue.

Eugene Gavrilov

the kX driver cannot directly set-up PCI latency under Windows OS
(but it is possible under Linux)

there's the following code in Linux driver:
pci_read_config_byte(pci, PCI_LATENCY_TIMER, &cmdb);
if (cmdb < 32)
cmdb = 32;
pci_write_config_byte(pci, PCI_LATENCY_TIMER, cmdb);

although WDM driver model doesn't permit pci bus configuration, Creative driver seems to have some functions to access the PCI bus directly (they use a separate .sys file for that)
so, probably (?) they configure some PCI parameters (perhaps, including the ones related to Via686B bridge, too)

the latency of 32clk is a 'standard' for Live/Audigy (provided Windows has configured the card correctly)
(note, however, that Linux driver uses '<', not '>' )

as far as I remember, PCI latency is the amount of time the card can 'hold' the bus
if it is too high, the card can 'capture' all the PCI activity for a long period of time
otherwise, the card's operation might be suspended

an idea: if the higher latency causes problems and, for instance, additional debugging info decreases the chance for the bug to appear, we could add a significant delay between register programming procedure on voice start-up...
(or, visa versa, we could try to minimize the time the driver spends in voice initialization)

-=-=- this was theoretical part of my message -=-=-

we should get more information on PCI latency / Sandra-related experiments before we can proceed

/Eugene

Nappylady

I wonder if the Creative people would be willing to help us in this endeavor? After all, Eugene, you have already helped them sell at least 1 Soundblaster card that I wouldnt've bought otherwise!

(I post this again because I think nobody noticed the last time I posted it)

Rox271

Everything is possible. Had some reading on PCI controller programming; I'm certainly not an expert but it looks quite feasable. What is the problem with that?

Interesting. So we should actually expect better performances with high values. So PCI may not be the issue.
Also a PCI issue wouldn't explain why 32 Start/Stop operations would finally restore audio, that should be random.

Always ready to test a beta driver when U want
But this also means less performances in the future? What about hand shake?

Good. Now I got beeps and an education

I guess you're in a better position for that. My PC is beeping with or without Sandra.

No idea. But since Eugene doesn't publish sources, what kind of support can we expect from Creative?

I did. And I'm sure the whole kx communty loves you NappyLady

XDread

MSI K7N2G, AMD Athlon XP 1800+, W2k sp4, DX9.0a (not up to date since version b is now out), kX Versjon: 5, 10, 00, 3533 - debug, EMU APS, what else? (I have posted this info a couple of times now. )

Note that I also had the same problem on my old HP computer, a pentium 3, 400MHz and as I can remember not having this problem the half year running w98 and native drivers on that computer.

Rox271

And what about your PCI latency?

XDread

Wow! That is good news!

XDread

No, I'll look into it!

TWidXugA

With pci latency set to 32 (had 10) it seems that the beeps are gone
i've tested in numerous times and its working well for 2 days now!!!


one way in wich i could get the bug rather frequently was runnig
ms flight simulator 2004 and changing views on the cockpit
wich obviously triggered another sample, but now its completly gone!!


thanks Eugene for your execelent piece of work!!!!


mobo asus a7a266 chipset ali
processor athlon 1200 oc 1300
Audigy 1 platinum
512 mb ram

Eugene Gavrilov

moreover, we seem to have practically the same hardware now (mine MB is w/o on-board video, however).
onboard video (even disabled) may affect this issue, as well as common bugs in BIOS initialization code

unfortunately I cannot reproduce the bug anymore...
but it still seems to be related to PCI bus stuff

probably, a full cycle of 64 voices clears some chipset 'cache' (if it ever exists) -- the PCI sourth/northern bridges are very 'clever' devices with strange logic nowadays

-=-=-

the kX Driver cannot access the PCI Bus directly because: 1. there are at least 3 [different] hardware methods of accessing the PCI bus 2. this violates the whole idea of WDM 3. this may conflict with Windows/other drivers 4. the hardware resources for PCI bus aren't exposed directly to the kX driver

it is possible, however, to write a small tool for tweaking the PCI latency (probably, such tools do already exist - search the net)

/Eugene

Nappylady

I got Powerstrip and went in to change the latency... it's already at 32, and the beep is still there.

Any other ideas? Should I try increasing it more or less or no?

Eugene Gavrilov

>> Nappylady

as far as I remember, you are experiencing a slightly different bug, aren't you?

/E

XDread

Sara, jessica... eh, Sandra output exerpts:

<<< APM & ACPI Information >>>
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

< APM System Status >
AC Line Status: On-Line
Battery Status: No Battery

< Performance Tips >
Tip 1107: System does not support ACPI. Check for a
BIOS update.
Notice 224: SMBIOS/DMI information may be inaccurate.


<< Creative Labs E-mu APS >>
< Device Information >
Device Type: Audio Multimedia Device
Device ID: bus 1, device A, function 0
Windows Device Name: kX 10k1 Audio - Model APS
OEM Device Name: Creative Labs EMU10K1 Audio Chipset (SB
Live!)
OEM Hardware ID: FUN_0, VEN_1102, DEV_0002, REV_04
Device Name: Creative Labs E-mu APS
Product ID: VEN_1102, DEV_4001
Revision: A / 5 (4)

< Power Management Features >
Version: 1.00
Supports Clock Slow-down: Yes
Supports D1 PM State: No
Supports D2 PM State: No
Supports PME#: No
Supports PME Clock: No

< Device Capabilities >
Latency Timer: 32 clk
I/O port resources: Yes
Memory resources: No
Bus Master Capable: Yes
Special Cycle Recognition: No
Memory Write & Invalidate: No
VGA Palette Snoop: No
Parity Error Response: No
Address/Data Stepping: No
System Error Line: No
Fast back-to-back Transactions:No
Detects Parity Errors: No
Supports System Error Line: No
Supports Parity Line: No
User Defined Format: No
66MHz Bus Support: No
New Capability List: Yes
Device Select Timing: Medium
Multi-Function Device: Yes
Header: 00
Interface: 00

< Hardware Resources >
I/O Range: 0000D400
Irq. No.: 9
INT Pin: A#
Dynamic Management: Yes


< Performance Tips >
Notice 224: SMBIOS/DMI information may be inaccurate.
Tip 2511: Some memory slots are free so the memory can
be easily upgraded.
Warning 2545: Large memory modules should be Registered/
Buffered.
Tip 2546: Large memory modules should be ECC/Parity.
Warning 103: ECC/Parity memory is recommended for servers.
Warning 2518: Mainboard temperature is too high.

Uh... "MB temperature is too high"??

< Temperature Sensor(s) >
Board Temperature: 44.0°C / 111.2°F
CPU Temperature: 49.5°C / 121.1°F
Power / Aux Temperature: 58.5°C / 137.3°F

XDread

My latency seems ok, but still buggy...

Nappylady

Good question. Perhaps we are dealing with two different bugs. In any case, we have one smushed, and a lot remaining to be smushed...

in any case, I'm going to try some different settings, and I fully expect that I will crash my computer a few times in the process... I'll post my results, if any, when I have them.

XDread

Hi!

Could you please state exactly what your problem was? If you hear a pure beeping tone, state so and if it is a nonuniform sound, tell us that. Also does everything seem to work fine while beeping?

If you hear a pure beep and everything seems ok while beeping instead of playing you have exact the same problem, else you have a (slight?) variant.

I have noticed something too: (expected, though)
When playing files in another sample rate, (lower) the sound is lower in pith too.