Russ

This is a bit confusing, but hopefully you will be able to follow along.

WaveEX (WAVE_FORMAT_EXTENSIBLE) and WMA (Windows Media Audio) formats are multichannel capable formats.

It seems that kX handles these formats (and maybe some others) a little differently (routing/FxBus assignments) then it typically does with multichannel sources (DS3D, etc).

BTW: I tested with WinXP SP2 using WMP11 and a ProFx:Peak8 plugin connected to FxBus 0-15 (kX version is 3545b).

With WaveEx it does not seem to make any difference which kX Wave Device is set as the default device, nor what the OS speaker settings are. Playback seems to always use all the channels present in the file (i.e. channels are routed to the FxBus associated with that channel, same as it would do with 3D sound with Wave 0/1, except that the side channels (FxBus 8/9) are included (if present in the file) even with kX's 8 point surround disabled (instead of being mixed into front and rear channels as would be the case with DirectSound3D)).

With WMA the results are similar to the WaveEx results, but there also seems to be some dependency on the OS Speaker settings.

i.e.
With Wave 0/1 as the default device:
With a speaker setting that is stereo only, or with the Surround Sound setting, audio appears to be stereo only (downmixed) and is routed to FxBus 0/1.
With any other speaker setting (Quadraphonic, 5.1, etc) all the channels are played as with WaveEx.

If a different device is set as the default, then playback seems to depend on what the speaker settings were previously (you cannot change the speaker settings with the other kX Wave devices, but it seems to use the previous setting). If the previous setting was a stereo only setting, or the Surround Sound setting, then audio is stereo only (downmixed) and is routed to the FxBus that is associated with the wave device. However if the speaker setting was anything else, then it plays all channels like it does with WaveEx.

---
This seems to be a bug, no? ...Not really a major issue (except maybe that the side channels (if present) would be missing entirely for most people), but makes things a bit more confusing...

Can anyone else confirm any of this (so I know that it is not just something whacky with my system)?

BTW: You can download files to test with here:
(At the bottom of the page there is a 6 channel and an a 8 channel test file (includes both WAV (WaveEX) and WMA version)).

[EDIT]
Another thing I noticed is that it does not seem to use the correct volume with the 8 channel version (maybe because it is 24 bit?).
[/EDIT]

Maddogg6

I found different....

Conditions:
WinXP SP3, SB0350, kX V 3545b
Windows Audio CP: kX Wave 0/1 Default Device, 7.1 Speakers (as kX presumably set)

WMP 11.0.5721.5230 - No plugins enabled.
Playing MS 'waveEX' 7.1 test wave file.

Default DSP config. (I did change kX synths sends in kX Router, but I never touched wave, ac3 or DS3D FXBus assignments...)

'Front Left' - FXBus 2
'Center' - FXBus 6
'Front Right' - FXBus 3
'Side Right' - FXbus 3+5 (should be FXBus 9 ??)
'Back Right' - FXBus 5
'Back Left' - FXBus 4
'Side Left' - FXBus 2 & 4 (Should be FXBus 8 ??)
'LFE' - FXBus 7

In summation, only 'AC3' outputs function and not the expected '3-D' (as labeled in kX Router).

It seems the side channels are down mixed to the front+rear.

Maddogg6

Ok, something is screwy here...

The 3-D outs (FXB 8&9) are now working. (But it seems Surrounder doesn't down mix to 2.1 as I would expect.)

Levels = With 100 Master / 100 Wave

The front (FXB 2/3) output 4.9/2.0 db
Rears & Center = -9.2 db, LFE = -11 db
Left Side = -8.2
Right side = -10.6

c.Rear & Top = inf. (wave file not encoded for these)

So yes, somethings weird with levels. Not to mention why I first seen the 7.1 to 5.1 mix down.

Default Device:
Yes, even when Wave 2/3, 4/5, 6/7 are used, multi-channel comes out of same FXBus, where according to MS, it should be 'folded' imto stereo.

Its conceivable that kX says 'no, use wave 0/1 for multi-channel, the user is dumb'
But what If I wanted my mobo audio to test multi-channel..??

Somethings not right.... but a better test would be; set devices in Win CP, reboot, test...i suppose..??

Maddogg6

I just tried Wave HQ too.

the same 'down mix' to 5.1 I got before is happening again, and does seem yo ignore the windows speaker setting.

Seems the driver is not reporting consistently its capabilities.

I wish MS said what levels their files should be. A test with no info about it is stupid imho.

Max M.

(regarding the levels - in an editor i see the following for the 8 ch. wav:
-7.940 -10.626 -8.715 -10.718 -8.741 -8.775 -7.739 -10.210 dB)

(btw., it's a bit ambiguous to use "WaveEx" as the synonym for multichannel wav as actually any whatever-channel non-16/8-bit wav is the "WaveEx" (including ordinary 2ch. 24 bit wav))

__________________

Russ

Regarding the levels, the exact level was not so much of a concern to me as was the fact that it was exceeding 0 dB (everything except the side channels), which should not be possible. In any case, it seems to be because the file is 24 Bit (I guess kX does not know how to correctly handle > 16 Bit WAV/WMA (with regular wave playback, as opposed to ASIO or Kernel Streaming), but plays it anyway).

BTW: You can open the files in Audacity.

I see, I just wasn't sure what else to call it so that people would know what I was talking about.

Russ

BTW: I wonder if this (the volume thing) might have something to do with the noise issues people are having with wave playback in Vista? I do not know how this would be handled in Vista, but it seems that the default format is 32 Bit in Vista (which I think means that everything is resampled to 32 Bit?), and maybe that is causing volume issues (I seem to recall at some point someone posting that the volume was too loud in Vista? (although it seems like it was a while ago, so probably an older version of kX)). I do not know, just a thought.

Russ

@Maddogg6

I thought that I should mention that since your card is 7.1, if you have Surrounder set to 6.1/7.1/HP, then kX's 8 Point Surround would be enabled (otherwise it is disabled). Normally 3-D Left, 3-D Right, and 3-D Surround Center (I have never seen 3-D Top used (I think kX probably does not support it currently)) are only used when kX's 8PS is enabled (otherwise they should be downmixed (if present) to other channels before FxBus). Because of this, there is not really a need for Surrounder to downmix those channels.

BTW: It does work correctly (for me) with DS3D.

Maddogg6

huh?
I am pretty sure kX set my windows speaker mode to 7.1. Thus, I would expect surrounder to down mix this (but does not), because windows should think my card is 7.1 capable.

And, the bug you are reporting is, no matter what the windows speaker mode is set to - it *acts* as if 8PS is always active (this seems more like a windows bug, but what do I know??)

btw...
The down mix (7.1 > 5.1) was observed from FXBus and P16V plugins respectively. I just monitored with a down mix via surrounder to my headphones, but level plugins was on FXBus.

MS mentions that windows will detect the sound cards capability and windows will 'fold' (I presum is their way of saying 'down mix) to 'stereo' if needed channels are not present.

What I observed was a down mix from 7.1 to 5.1 in 2 different circumstances. With Wave HQ, I would expect/appreciate this behavior, and I can repeat it - the other instance with Wave 0/1 is no longer happening.

But imho, it should be controlled by the win speaker mode setting. Which clearly is not the case.
But even with Wave HQ, it seems to ignore the windows speaker setting.


With Wave 0/1 It always came out as 8PS no matter what wave device or speaker mode in windows I set - just as you originally posted (with my one un-explainable exception - perhaps I ran something that left me in this wierd mode??).

In other words -
1) Windows ignores its own speaker setting and is always 8PS
AND
2) Surrounder does not down mix this 8PS to 2.1

So I never hear the side channels in this test file. This doesnt seem like it should be expected and feels more like a 2 part problem.
1) Windows bug ignoring its own speaker config setting
2) Surrounder should down mix 7.1 to ??

edit:
To expand:
No matter if I use the .wav test or WMA test files... and no matter if I set win speaker mode to stereo, quad, 5.1 or 7.1 - it always outputs to FXBus 8/9 for side channels, and thus are always missing - *except* the first time I ran the test - it down mixed to 5.1 - but I can't for the life of me repeat that result with anything other than Wave HQ.

edit 2:
After playing an MP3, an re-testing with the WMA - it is again down mixing to 5.1 (win speakers is set to 7.1)
So something get initialized at some times, but not always...??

Its definitely confusing and frustrating, but seems more like a windows bug (as far as channels are concerned) Except surrounder imho should down mix the sides - no bid deal, I can do this my self, now that i know about it.

Levels:
Yeah - WAV file > 0db , but WMA file seems ok.

Russ

The 8PS thing that I am referring to, is a kX setting (which I do not think is linked in any way to the OS Speaker settings). AFAIK, the only way it is enabled is either by manually enabling it in kX Console, or by setting Surrounder to a 6.1, 7.1, or HP mode.

The original post had to do with the fact that not only did it ignore the OS speaker settings, but it also ignored kX's own internal 8PS setting.

Since 8PS is only supposed to be enabled with the aforementioned Surrounder settings (settings that would basically just have those channels passthru), Surrounder did not need to downmix (because with any other setting they should already be downmixed).

BTW: You can check the status of kX's 8PS setting in kX Console:
ghw 20
0=disabled
1=enabled

...and of course you can set it's value using the 'shw 20 <value>'

I suggest trying the Rightmark 3DSound Positioning Accuracy Test, with 8PS enabled and disabled (with the System option set to DirectSound3D Hardware) and monitor FxBus as before, to see how it effects the audio (and you will see how it differs from what happens with the 8 channel test file.

BTW: Regarding the volume (with the 8 channel test files), both the WAV and WMA version give the same result for me.

[EDIT]
WMP has a "Quiet Mode" option that seems to effect the WMA file but not the WAV file, so I wonder if maybe you have that option enabled?
[/EDIT]

Maddogg6

Yup - disabled - but WMP still outputs to the side channels.

The RightMark 3d test - downmixes to 5.1 with 'shw 20 0'. But uses 'side' channels w/ 'shw 20 1'


Ahh - I was not aware of this hardware parameter. No wonder it seems ignored by the one media player that supports waveEX format (wmp) - VLC does not recognize waveEX.


I dont see any 'quiet mode' setting in wmp 11... how do you get to this setting?

edit: found it in enhancements.. and yes it was on... but I never seen that, so it must be a default setting. /edit

Russ

Right, and you should also get the 3-D Surround Center channel too.


It seems that kX is ignoring its own setting (I assume kX is doing its own mixing with that setting).

It is one of the enhancements.
View -> Enhancements -> Quiet Mode

[EDIT]
Hehe, just saw your edit...
It was off for me, and I do not recall ever touching it before either...

In any case, again, not a major issue for me... and thanks for testing so I know it is not just me.

Maddogg6

Seeing as the right mark test was affected by the kX 8PS setting, I can see 2 possible (logical) explanations of how that setting may be used...

1) only affects say Wave Out or Directsound
2) software app can read that and change how it operates.

If kX was down mixing - then it should for wmp playing that test file - but does not.

So the real question is - how *is* this setting supposed to work?

When/what is windows doing stuff vs when/what kx is supposed to do.

These things at times had made me wonder.
1) When is software resampling vs 'hardware' resampling. edit: OS vs software vs hardware /edit
2) When is software accessing multiple wave channels (like sonar can w/ WDM) vs kX 'decoding' multi-channel audio (AC3 or DS3D).

I think I may be starting to realize why WinVista completely overhauled the way audio was handled. At first my assumption was to eliminate hardware acceration becuase new CPUs could now better handle the software that can do it and no longer rely on hardware specific 'acceleration' implementations.

Now I am thinking - to simplify it all and eliminate finger pointing issues from complex relationships between the OS and the hardware driver (a result of MS driver certifications probable failure - as in, kX is not 'certified driver')

it all seem overcomplicated in my admitted very limited knowledge.

Russ

I did some more tests (just out of curiosity)...

With Kernel Streaming (Wave 0/1), the 8 Channel WAV (24 Bit version) plays back with correct volume levels (all channels as with previous tests).

With Directsound, the results are the same as testing with WMP11.

With kX Wave 0/1, it is stereo only (downmixed) using FxBus 0/1 (and all channels except the front (which play at the correct level) are attenuated quite a bit (same with the other wave devices, except the FxBus used is the one associated with the wave device being used)).

I made a 9 channel WAV version (16 Bit - FL, FR, FC, LF, BL, BR, BC, SL, SR) just to see what it would do... It played the same as the Wave 0/1 test (above). I suspect the result would be the same with any number of channels > 8.

I also made a 5 channel WAV version (16 Bit - FL, FR, BC, SL, SR) mainly to test the side channels and the back center channel. All channels played to their associated FxBus (i.e. 2, 3, 14, 8, 9 (with 8PS disabled and Windows set to 5.1)).

As a final test, I made an 8 channel WAV version (16 Bit - BC, TC, TFL, TFC, TFR, TBL, TBC, TBR) mainly to see what it would do with the top channels. The sounds played from the following FxBus pins: [14, 6, 2, 6, 3, 4, 6, 5]

[EDIT]
One more quick test, so that all the channels are covered: FLC/FRC use FxBus 2/3.

Note: I did not test everything with multiple OS speaker settings since it did not seem to have any impact (with multichannel WAV) in previous testing.

BTW: The channel name abbreviations (above) are the same as what is listed here: Multiple Channel Audio Data and WAVE Files

[EDIT2]
I figured I might as well post the full mapping for easier reference:
[EDIT3]
Note: The above mapping appears to only be used if the file contains more than 2 channels (if only 2 channels are present, it seems FxBus 0/1 will be used (regardless of channel assignments)).

Eugene Gavrilov

Hi Russ, Maddog

Could you please send me a brief resumé of your findings by e-mail? I got lost in all the facts/posts/corrections found in this thread.

E.

Russ

Hi Eugene, it is a little difficult to give a brief synopsis because there are a few potential issues that came up, and (as Maddogg6 stated), it is not completely clear how some things are supposed to work with kX.

I guess to start with (to maybe narrow down some things), it would be helpful if we could get answers to the following:

What exactly is the OS speaker setting supposed to do as far as kX is concerned (with kX Wave 0/1)? The FAQ says to set it to 5.1, but it is unclear if that applies to all card models (i.e. what about 7.1 cards or 4.0 cards, etc?), and whether or not kX supports any other OS speaker settings. If kX does support other speaker settings, who is supposed to do the downmixing, etc (it seems that it is supposed to be done by the OS in some cases, but not all)? Should the OS speaker setting (with Wave 0/1) effect the other wave devices?

What is kX's 8PS setting supposed to do?
I know how it works with DirectSound3D, but is it only for DS3D, or should it work the same with other multichannel sources (i.e. multichannel WAV/WMA)?

I do not think kX currently supports 24 bit (or greater?) audio with kX Wave/DirectSound, is this correct? If so, what is supposed to happen when a 24 bit audio is played (using Windows Media player for example)?

Russ

@Eugene,
I think maybe the easiest thing might be to just try a few tests yourself (since I think the test results are fairly self-explanatory, and I am still not completely sure of what kX or the OS is supposed to do in some cases, thus it is hard to give a brief (clear) description of the issue(s)). For this reason I made some wave files that can be used for testing:

All testing is using Directsound (kX Wave 0/1) and kX 3545b on Windows XP.
(I tested using WMP 11 with no plugins/enhancements or 3rd party Directshow filtering enabled (I also tested using Graphedit and some other programs)).

You can download the files here.

The multichannel wave files are meant to show two things:
1) That the side channels and back center channel play to FxBus 8/9/14 even with kX's 8PS disabled (and OS speaker settings appear to have no effect).
2) When there is more than 8 channels, it appears to be down-mixed to 2 channels (why not 8? or 6? Is it the OS doing this or kX?), and some of the channels are attenuated quite a bit.

The remaining wave files are meant to show a possible volume issue with 24/32 bit playback (again with Directsound (kX Wave 0/1)) on 10k2 devices. The 16 bit and 32 bit float formats play at the correct volume, while the 24/32 Bit (Signed PCM) play at +18dB over the source level.

That does not cover everything, but I think it covers most of it.

I posted this here so that other people might verify my findings (but I also sent this to Eugene via email).

Eugene Gavrilov

Thanks everybody for running the tests.
Ok, here's what I know about kX internals : )
------------------------------

1. kX does not mix audio. There is no software mixing at all - neither in kernel-level or in user-level code.

2. kX kernel-level driver ignores any Windows 'speaker' settings. If Windows sends 'SET' command, the driver ignores it, if Windows sends 'GET' command, the driver always replies '7.1' or '5.1', depending on the card model ("is_a2" flag, see below). The driver does not try to 'remember' speaker settings received from Windows - so, it is always ignored.

for details on these microsoft requests, see:
KSAUDIO_CHANNEL_CONFIG
KSPROPERTY_AUDIO_CHANNEL_CONFIG

Perhaps, kX kernel-level driver should return an error code when trying to switch into 2.0 or similar speaker mode, but this might confuse some applications.. (?)

For the KXPROPERTY_ AUDIO_STEREO_SPEAKER_GEOMETRY, kX always returns WIDE.
KSPROPERTY_AUDIO_STEREO_SPEAKER_GEOMETRY
(and, the same as above, kX simply ignores this setting and does not save it).

3. kX Mixer instructs Windows to choose 5.1 or 7.1 speaker setting depending on "is_a2" flag - every time you run 'reset device settings' command. This is done via DirectSound API, and this causes two things: Windows updates its internal settings somewhere in the registry, and Windows also sends KSPROPERTY_AUDIO_CHANNEL_CONFIG request (which, as I said above, is ignored by kernel-level driver anyway).

4. "is_a2" flag: it is set for any a2 card (and, thus, you get "7.1", otherwise you get "5.1").

5. 8PS setting (kX API): this setting is only set by Surrounder2, when the user chooses 7.1 or 6.1 or 'headphones' presets. (And these two presets are only displayed when "is_a2" flag is set).
"kX Speaker test" checks this setting, if it is ON, Speaker Test displays all the 7.1 speakers, otherwise it will only show 5.1 speakers.
This setting is also used by kX DirectSound 3-D engine: when mapping 3-d sounds (and =only= 3-D sounds, not multichannel audio), it uses either 5- or 7- point vectors.

That is, if on A2 [and only A2!] you configure 'Surrounder 2' into 7.1/6.1 mode, you will get 7.1 speakers in 'kX Speaker Test' and 3-D engine will be aware of this. You can still use headphones, by the way, for instance, Creative Labs HRTF DSP effect with 8 inputs.
Windows will always think you have 5.1 or 7.1 speakers, and it is advised not to touch this setting.

This setting does not influence multichannel playback at all. This is a purely internal setting that binds 'Surrounder 2', 'kX Speaker Test' and 'kX DirectSound 3D Engine'.

6. kX kernel-level driver reports 8-channels on Wave 0/1 device. (Regardless of the card model).
For vista, this is the only format reported, while on XP two formats are reported: stereo and multichannel. (This is done to save resources: any WinMM application would allocate 8 channels otherwise, even if it wishes to play back stereo-only).

7. kX driver will return 'error' when it is asked to playback any content with the number of channels > 8. (Windows is supposed to never try to do this, and downmix automatically).

8. 10k1/10k2/a2 cards always route multichannel audio to fxbuses: front: 2,3 rear: 4,5 center/lfe: 6,7 side: 8,9 surround-center, 'top': 14,15.

MIDI is sent to 12/13, reverb/chorus to 10/11

wave 0/1 in 'stereo' mode is routed to 0/1 (XP only, Vista routes to 2/3, 4/5, 6/7, ... since 'stereo' mode is not supported)

wave 2/3, 4/5, 6/7 route to their respected fxbuses

Russ,
I'm not sure that I can deal with (1) and (2).. I will check 24/32 playback mode, but it might depend on the card model and the most recent changes in the driver (24-bit ASIO support).

E.

Russ

Thanks for the info

As I said before, (regarding 1), it is not really a big deal (I mean how many files are there currently that use those channels), and so long as we are aware of it, we can use custom DSP routing if the issue ever comes up. As for the more than 8 channel thing, also not really a big deal, I just wonder what Windows uses to determine how to downmix (i.e. why is it downmixing to stereo only (and the thing with the levels makes it seem like maybe it is downmixing for headphones or something? I do not know, again not a big deal)).

As for the 24/32 bit thing: The results I posted here are with my Audigy (SB0090). Also (IIRC), the volume issue is just with Directsound (kX Wave (0/1)), ASIO and Kernel Streaming play at the correct volume.