Lex Nahumury

Pic:
http://members.home.nl/nahutec/vst/drumkit.png

Demo song:
http://members.home.nl/nahutec/vst/What's%20Next(by%20Lex%20Nahumury).mp3

Pros:
- 128 voice polyphonic
- fast engine
- uses very little CPU
- 'buid in' stereo ambient sample set
- easy to use
- ...it's FREE!

Cons:
- 'One trick pony'
- only 1 stereo out
- no custom gui

Notes:
Works at fixed 48kHz samplerate.
Checks if kX driver is installed.

Hosts tested:
- Cubase SX 1.68
- VSTHost
- Chainer

Installation:
Just unzip both files into your VSTplugin directory.
(Both files must be in the same directory!)

Download here:
http://members.home.nl/nahutec/vst/vst_plugins.htm


/Lex

Maddogg6

I listened to th mp3 demo - Very cool Lex...
And, I just D/L this (didnt install yet) and was wondering...

Whats 'One Trick Pony' ??

Can I assume its not multi-timbral (or only one instance allowed)??
Or does it mean - only 1 drum kit available?.

which brings my next question - is it possible for a user to make a custom kit?

dj_stick

very nice sounding imo
i use a lot of synthesized drums in my tracks, so i might use this for a few of the sounds in my current track

although i know it's only a single stereo out, would you consider adding more outputs in the future? (if the demand is there of course)

__________________

Lex Nahumury

Yes, It means 1 drum kit available.
You mean, by providing your own sample set?
If so Yes, but not in the current format.
Yes, if the demand is there I'll probably do that.
Perhaps 2 to 4 stereo outs so user can group certain drumpads.
(Leave kick dry and process snare, cymbals whatever, stuff like that)

Maddogg6

Yes I meant adding own samples.


I notice the sample are in a dat file... are you looking to change this - or ??

ehm... consider it demanded... hehe

I agree with DJ-STICK - Yes - it sounds very good.

thomasabarnes

Lex:

I like the low cpu deal.

Can you expound on maddogg6's question about using own kits. What do you mean about "...not in current format?" Can we load our own .wav drum sounds or what?

I haven't tried it yet either. Gonna install it now.

__________________

May a song always touch you in a positive way.
SONAR X1D Expanded, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB x2 HDD 7200 rpm

My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs

thomasabarnes

Hey, I was checking it out. Not bad snare hits and crash symbols and open close hi hat sounds for a 13 MB sized kit! Only 2% cpu load, until I inserted Slicy Drummer into the FX Bin then cpu load went to 9-11%, and it didnt go back down to 2% even when I deleted Slicy from the FX Bin. I'm not saying this is the VSTi's fault.

I take it you're gonna make this to be able to load kits in some popular format?

Also would be nice if we could assign the drum sounds to what key we want them (includubg same snare hit on any two keys, for example). Without some kind of features like this, I can't see much reason for using this VSTi over soundfonts loaded into kX Synths. Am I missing something?

Lex: I'm sure you'll set me straight about something. LOL Hey, you should have known you would get newbee and possibly idiot questions for something newly presented. But, I hope this in no way discourages you from continuing development of this VSTi.

__________________

May a song always touch you in a positive way.
SONAR X1D Expanded, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB x2 HDD 7200 rpm

My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs

dj_stick

2-4 stereo outputs sounds good… what about the option of "panning" each drum left/right (making each drum sound going through a single mono channel only, or giving stereo
imaging)

just floating another idea (one i use when i build my 909 kit with logic's ESX24)

__________________

Maddogg6

I'm thinking even if its not in a GUI - and use only Midi CC to adjust such things like pan - output send level per key/hit/note - would be oky dokey with me.

Actually - to have no GUI and only midi CC to adjust stuff would be good for me - maybe others would disagree..??

To expand:

Kick Drum Out setect: - CC 1 (0-32 = out 1, 33-64 = out 2, 65-96 = Out 3, 97-127 = out 4)
Kich Drum Level Level: CC 2
Kick Drum Pan: CC 3
Kick velocity to Filter : CC4 (ok, so I'm dreaming here...)
Snare Out select: CC 5
etc...
Filter Resonance: CC 110 (to contiinue to dream)

NOT A DEMAND - simply just an idea or two....
I'll use it as is anyway...

@:Thomas:
I read a post where Lex mentioned getting better latency with a VSTi than the KX Synth - I personally dont see any difference here - but others may ?? then again, I didnt do any real heavy testing with it yet either.. I suspect it was his motivation (or partly) for making this.

Lex Nahumury

kX Synth is useless for drum playback (or anything else requering instant attack for that matter).
I can't believe hardly anyone notice such things.
(same as with the much better 3534f ASIO performance)
These are not subjective things.
They are as objective as 1+1=2!

Anyway, I'll answer the rest of the Qs later, its bed time here.

thomasabarnes

Well, I never noticed that kX Synth isn't all that good for instruments requiring fast attack. Anyway, I use DR-008 for my drums or a soundfont DXi/VSTi or a sampler.

But I just checked this VSTi and then kX synth using the Creative supplied CT8MGM.SF2.

Your VSTi instrument sounds more punchier and better, no doubt. But that's some thing I would have reckoned was due to the sample size of the individual sounds. Anyway, how many times have I illuded to, or implied that we're lucky to have you in the kX community, Lex??!!! So, yes what you point out here is reason enough to use this new VSTi of yours.

Still, what about more features (loading at least .wav kits). Remember, we all are not all Cubase SX users. OK what I mean is that I use DXi instruments, but I admit that some VSTi work better than their DXi version. This was the case for DR-008 until like the two most recent versions.

And, hey don't get upset with me!? JK

Furthermore, I never used 3534f til you brought it up in light of the version's ASIO performance. I read here since 2002, but really just stuck with using kX since maybe 2004 or late 2003. :P

Anyway, I say pass at least some of your knowledge on to people, mainly those you feel will retain it and help others to be better at the many facets involved in the music production industry. That is, if you think it will serve some worthy cause to do so. Like I said before, this is a hobby for me, but I always wanted to make it in the music production business being a all in one band, but that's still a dream. I'm sure, though, you get my point.

Sleep tight and don't let the bed bugs bite.

Lastly, remember, I will lose my Internet connection soon. I applied for a job, and so far, the application process seems to be going well. It's a job in the criminal justice field, so it's a long process. I'm at the stage, now where I'm waiting to see if I'll be called for a interview ( got a letter today in the mail that I passed the written and psycological exam. Next is the interview part, then the job if I get called. Anyway, I'm in a good position on the eligibility list ( a score of 89 out of 100). So if the job comes through, I'll be back on line about 2 to 3 months after that (if not sooner). If you don't see me post for a good while, you will know why.

Sorry for the long carrying on post.

Thomas

__________________

May a song always touch you in a positive way.
SONAR X1D Expanded, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB x2 HDD 7200 rpm

My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs

Maddogg6

I guess I never really listened that carefully before... While I don't think Thomas' test was an 'accurate' one. (Lex's samples are higher Q to begin with, their bigger in size, so they *should* be) I DID go a step further and created a SF2 from recording Lex's VSTi @16/48 - and then mapping the these sounds in a SF2 (no velocity splits - just recorded at 127 velocity, set hi-hats to 'executive class', set release rates, set attack to lowest/fastest etc..)

Now, keep in mind I *have* read before (now that its montioned) that you need to add a couple samples in front of each sample wave, to compensate for a 'lagging attack'.
I also DO notice many SF2's I have (some from EMU) with an additional 1-5 0db samples in the beginning of the instrument sample. I figured this was a driver bug (I think I read this way... back while I was using APSLive) - anyway - I also added 2-3 samples in front of each instrument sample wave (anymore would increase my appearant latency)

I then (in sonar) took a Slicey pattern - played 4 bars with the VSTi, and 4 with the SF2 I made. And recorded them both. It wasn't a *huge* difference.

The hi-hats have a little extra 'ting' to its attack - as well as the Snare has a subtle nuence missing in the SF2. - I would have never noticed without A/B comparing the way I did. The best test, of course, would be using the source samples for an SF2, but ...

I too, will confirm Lex's claim.

Latency wise - I still see KX synth as faster than all the other VSTi's (IE SFz that I believe comes with Sonar) I have. EXCEPT this VSTi however, seems to be ecaxtly as fast as KX synth. (I did another test of a single instrument and compared to each other, and looked like a average of 1-2 samples shifted - which accounts for the added samples points in the instrument sample waves in the SF2 used)
While I did hear volume differences between using SFz and KX synth previously, Listening a little closer - it seems KX Synth has a bit lower freq response. ?? Its hard for me to be certain.

Now Im not gonna go too crazy and *never* use KX Synths - but it IS definitly something thats good to know.

I suspect (because this VSTi is 'KX users Only') that this VSTi is *HW accelerated* somehow... and if this is the case - Lex my good man, you are onto something very, very nice.

Bravo Lex - Bravo.

dj_stick

there was one timing issue i noticed when i first loaded the VSTi into logic

i played one bar of kicks in a loop, each kick on the beat, and it sounded every 4 beats that the 4th would "lag" by a noticeable amount
however it fixed itself somehow when i bounced it down to audio, and continued to play that same bar in loop…

__________________

Russ

Nice Lex,
I was hoping you were going to do something like this, back when you made your other synth's.

Lex Nahumury

Ok, I see some clarification is needed.
Since I do a lot of VST(i) coding, the 'advantages'
of writing 'kX only' VST plugins is that one does not have
to support different sample rates and different platforms.
It's always 48kHz, MS Windows.
So I decided to release a little 'kX only' VSTi and investigate user response.


Concerning this VSTi;
This is a stripped down version of a private drum VSTi I wrote and use,
which has most of the feature requests made here implemented.
(see pros & cons in first post)

I really don't know why anyone else would need this VSTi.
I can only tell why *I* would need it;

- Anyone who has ever tried to lay down a realistic
sounding (midi)drumtrack knows that besides decent
sounding samples, you need to think and play like
a real drummer would.
Expressive articulations like flams, rolls, ghost notes
etc. are a 'must have'.
Ever tried to do a realistic snare, tom or cymbal roll on the SF Synth??
It sounds crap.
Why, because it hasn't the speed nor the polyphony to do this.
A realistic roll must not cut off previous notes,
but must 'stack' all playing/decaying notes.
Any idea how much voices that takes?
A lot!
Sure I could use drum roll samples,
but I don't want to hear the same roll over and over again
and they seldom match the right tempo, lenght etc.
Besides, I use drumpads and even on keyboard I like
to play the rolls myself.

So in this respect the hw synth lacks polyphony and
(re)trigger speed. Add to that the 'attack issue'
and the 32mb sample limit,.. enough reasons for *me*
to look for an alternative.

- With the exeption of a few (commercial) VSTis
most of them can't handle the large polyphony either
or use up way to much CPU per voice for my taste.
And,.. those few good ones mostly aren't free!

- Not to seldom I quickly need a decent drums,
bass and chords to work out an idea or spontaniously jam with some friends.
I don't know about you guys, but at those moments I don't want to
look for samples, banks, templates, settings and such.
I use my 'One trick ponies' instead.

That's it as far as I'm concerned.

Not to 'kill' any form of discussion but keep in mind that I
only write stuff that is usefull to myself.
Like minded users may profit from that while others don't.

/Lex.

Lex Nahumury

Yes, that was to be expected (although I had hoped not)
It's common knowledge (in VST coder's land) that Logic has a 'weird' VSTi implementation.
I probably can fix it but it takes quite some extra work and additional code.

/Lex.

Lex Nahumury

Yes, I know what you mean. I have one drum VSti that uses a large mono sample bank
to select instruments from and route/pan it everywhere.
But, this won't work with stereo ambient samples!

dj_stick

i'll keep testing it when i have the time, let me know if there's anything specific you wish me to test

__________________

Lex Nahumury

Ok. On forehand; Good luck with your job application!
Hope to see you back soon,
/Lex.

Lex Nahumury

The sf 'attack issue' has been improved since 3538.
(I know since I was involved in that development).
Nevertheless, the first ~2 to ~6ms of the sampledata always gets an 'attack' ramp,
resulting in loss of definition on instruments that produce its characteristics in the attack phase.
(adding 2~3 NULL samples won't fix this)

But don't take my word for it.
You can verify this by using a square wave sample,
make a single SF instrument from it in Vienna,
set to instant attack,
load into kx synth,
playback midi, record synth to audio track,
enlarge waveform display,
look at waveform note_on start point,

...tada,... ramp!

Maddogg6

@Lex:

I feel no need for further testing - now that Ive heard the difference, I have a better understanding of what you were describing.

So this VSTi is so fast from its light foot print then? - and adding more 'bells and whistles' described in previous posts *could* affect the response of this VSTi. Is this correct? If, so - maybe I'll retract some of the features I requested (maybe?? lol).

Also, If the KX synths are *just* hardware accelerated software synths, I'm curious why the attack issue still exists?

Im guessing its from the 'polyphony' management. (I assume its something un-avoidable like this, as the soundcard card has a HW limit of the # of simultanious streams, where as a VSTi - (i suspect) is doing all the mixing of the multiple streams into a single (or fewer anyway) stream on its own)

anyway - thanks for your hard work either way, as well as the explanation(s)...

Lex Nahumury

@Maddogg6
No not really. I'm a bit of a performance 'freak' and hate 'bloatware',
so I tried to write the code to be as fast as I could get it to be.
It can be optimized even more by using .NET compiler and/or use SSE and stuff like that.
But once you get started messing with diff. compilers, switches and what not
it tends to "eat you alive". (as Max.M once described it to me very accuratly)

Not necessarely but possibly yes, but rest assured, I would never add unnecessary features on the expense of speed/performance.
No it's nothing like that.
The Synths are real hardware synths.
Once initiated by the host (driver) emu10kx chip reads it's samples from host memory,
and does all up/downsampling, transposing, interpolation, ADSR and LFO generation etc.
all by itself. ( see specs)
The attack issue is a hardware related issue.
I think the latter is all I'm allowed to say about it. (NDA stuff)

Maddogg6

Oh - okay - I read before, where you said something that the effect of 'KX synths are HW accelerated software based'... but I see you were refering to the fact that its DSP code (software) driven - but is still 'hardware' in the sense that the DSP (once initiated by the host PC) can then operate independantly from the host PC...

I guess when I think of a 'hardware' synth - Im thinking of analog based oscilators, filters, ADSR's - like the old moogs. Until - you made the above statement before - I always thought there was a dedicated chip on these cards that 'emulated' the hardware synths (as I just described) to a some degree, but with a PCM based oscilator.

I'd guess most modern 'hardware' synths are DSP based by now... Thus, still technically software, but with dedicated hardware to run the software, but still called a 'hardware synth'.

I love learning about this technical stuff - sorry if I drive ya nuts with the 'dumb' questions/assumptions..

Oh - and what spec were you refering to? - I looked at the SF2 spec and its 'technical' parts are a bit over my head. And never really seen how its to be implemented - seems more like the SF2 file structure and such.

Lex Nahumury

I don't recall saying that.
I do recall saying that, in contradiction to common believe, hw synth(s) do not
have "0 latency", and that software synths like VST *can* even be faster.

/Lex

dj_stick

to put into perspective, even analogue hardware synths, external modules or keyboard units, often they'll have a latency of up to 10ms

__________________

Lex Nahumury

Exactly my point!

NightBreed

These are really nice sounding drums. Using them along with TigerM's reverbstaton with synthedit just to play midi's atm. I use Hypersonic for the percussions (drums that arent mapped with this vsti) but all other drums come from this vsti.

Awesome Lex. I would love to hear what you do with t808..lol j/k (kinda)

Thanks for this.

Lex Nahumury

Yeah, I plan to add some percussion instruments after I've found some suitable samples.
Personaly I miss tambourine, triangle, woodblock(for click track), cowbell etc.

Lex Nahumury

New demo:

http://members.home.nl/nahutec/vst/What's%20Next(by%20Lex%20Nahumury).mp3

All drums with the Free Acoustic DrumKit.
All Guitar Fx entirely in kX DSP.

(Bass, Rhodes and Grand all custom 'one trick ponies')

/Lex

Russ

The guitar sounds nice .
I hope you are not just teasing us with that .