DSP Plugins Order

drgrozozo · Apr 8, 2006, 04:14 PM

Hi,

I could't find reference to dsp plugins order so I'll ask here...

I have girder that controls line in, as tv tuner remote.

If i clear dsp and add prologue and epilogue, connect ac97, i get tv tuner sound, but it isn't controllable by remote.

If i clear dsp and add epilogue and then prologue, it works. How is the order of plugins important?

Thanks in advance

Chester01 · Apr 8, 2006, 06:45 PM

I am not posative this answers your question but it may be related. If you right click in the DSP and click Advanced Options, whenever you load a plugin you have the option menu come up that says : "Translate Plugin", you have the suboptions of Position: don't care, After Microcode, and Before Microcode. I would assume that the order you are loading the plugins is influencing their "position" in the microcode. Try using the Advanced Options and see if it makes a difference where in the microcode you place the plugins... Good luck!

drgrozozo · Apr 8, 2006, 07:40 PM

thanks man, tried that first, and it didn't influence the result

i compared settings files, the only differences were offset fields and first 2 ports of prolog, not that it meant much to me since i couldn't find reference for either one (if connections and mixer settings are the same, should these be the same?)

anyway, if it's nothing common, it might just be a bug with my version of drivers or setup

Russ · Apr 8, 2006, 08:03 PM

You need to create different automation settings for different DSP configs, as the plugin order is relevant (at least in the way that the automation settings are saved). Think about plugins that can be loaded multiple times, if the automation settings did not take the ordering into account, then how would it know which instance of the plugin you mean to control? ...

drgrozozo · Apr 8, 2006, 08:46 PM

well i will probably talk nonsense since i never used automation before

but isn't that something about midi? i think i have problem with dsp routing or something.
anyway, here's my problem again:
clean dsp.
when i add prolog-epilog then the line-in in mixer has values (-94 to 12) and it ain't controllable by girder.
when i add epilog-prolog then the line-in in mixer has values (0 to 100) and it is controllable by girder.
i checked routing, and plugin positions after/before microcode, i'll check automation too if i can grasp concept of it

Russ · Apr 8, 2006, 09:06 PM

I am sorry, I am not familair with girder and I misunderstood what you are doing.
(I thought you were using kX Automation).

Quote:

when i add prolog-epilog then the line-in in mixer has values (-94 to 12) and it ain't controllable by girder.
when i add epilog-prolog then the line-in in mixer has values (0 to 100) and it is controllable by girder.

That is a known issue (I actually reported this one myself in the bug forum some time ago: AC97 Slider Bug ).
I suspect that whatever is causing that bug, is also messing up the notification from Windows Mixer (which I guess is what girder is using), and that is what is causing your problem. That will need to be fixed by Eugene, but in the mean time, you have a workaround, just make sure that you load epilog before prolog.

drgrozozo · Apr 8, 2006, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

That is a known issue (I actually reported this one myself in the bug forum some time ago).

thank you, you've just spared me from one sleepless night

ok, then workaround it is, don't know if something similar is possible with just profx plugins, anyway this will work for my tv setup and it's good enough for me.

thanks again

Russ · Apr 8, 2006, 09:38 PM

Currently the only other option (for ProFX or other plugins) is using kX Automation (allows control of plugin parameters using MIDI/SysEx messages), but I do not know if that can be done from girder.

Russ · Apr 8, 2006, 10:04 PM

BTW: Personally, I would not adjust the Line In volume, to control the TV volume (other then mute). I would set the Line In volume to a fixed value (as well as the TV volume), such that it is an optimal value for the dynamic range of the signal, and then control it using the Master Volume, or another plugin (to reduce noise and prevent clipping).

i.e.
I set my cable box's volume to optimal stereo (so it is a fixed value), and then adjust Line In to the appropriate level, and use the Master Volume to adjust the level that is output to the speakers, etc.

drgrozozo · Apr 9, 2006, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

Currently the only other option (for ProFX or other plugins) is using kX Automation (allows control of plugin parameters using MIDI/SysEx messages).

thanks

Quote:

BTW: Personally, I would not adjust the Line In volume, to control the TV volume (other then mute). I would set the Line In volume to a fixed value (as well as the TV volume), such that it is an optimal value for the dynamic range of the signal, and then control it using the Master Volume, or another plugin (to reduce noise and prevent clipping).

never thought about it, are you saying adjusting volume trough line-in introduces noise? now, it does sound logical to adjust output instead of input levels...
the reason i don't use master volume is that i often need other sound sources while watching tv, and range of tv signal is sooo crappy, that when i adjust volume for one channel, i could blow my ears off by emptying a trashcan

yeah, the plugin that would control output just for tv would probably be the best bet, but it wouldn't be remote controlable, then again i will check if dscaler (thats what i use for tv

) has it's own output and make girder control that value...
thanks for the tip

miguel · Apr 9, 2006, 12:17 PM

I think what Russ was referring to is the inherent noise of the line-in input. If For example you input your tv audio at unnecessarily low volume just to amplify it later down the signal path you'll be amplifying that inherent noise too. As a general rule, get you signals into the card as hot as possible (without overloading the line-in) and only use the DSP for attennuating the signal before output to your speakers. This should give you the best signal to noise ratio.

Russ · Apr 9, 2006, 08:40 PM

Yes, what miguel said is basically what I meant, with the addition that you want to make sure it doesn't clip either, as that will add distortion.

i.e.
Make sure that when the TV signal (the signal itself, not via the volume control) is at its loudest (like most commercials that are jacked way up), you want to make sure that the level (on a peak meter in the DSP), does not exceed 0 dB.

Basically, what you would want to do, is to find the optimal volume for the signal going into Line In, in conjunction with the optimal level for Line In itself, such that it is as loud as possible, without clipping, and without increasing the noise floor too much. Once you find those optimal levels, leave those values fixed, and only attenuate the signal to your speakers (i.e. Master Volume does not amplify, it attenuates).

When you find the right combination, then you shouldn't have too much trouble with other sounds being too loud (and you can adjust the wave volume seperatley). Some cable boxes (if you are using cable) also have a compression option, that may help on those days when you want to listen quitely and still hear the lower end. Also, there are plugins available as well, to do similair in the DSP.

Being able to use the remote control to adjust the TV volume seperatley makes it a little more complicated, but for the best quality sound, you want to start with the optimal signal levels, etc.

drgrozozo · Apr 10, 2006, 12:10 PM

thanks guys, i get what you're saying.

but as i'm using tv tuner card, it's output is directly connected to line-in, and the input signal range it's pretty much out of my control. i didn't think of fixing that with plugins before you've mentioned it, is there any plugin in particular that you're referring to? being used to adjusting every input/output, fixed signal levels concept is new to me, i'll get on it right now, it sure will help recording a lot.

Russ · Apr 10, 2006, 08:13 PM

For compression there is the e-Compressor.

Apr 8, 2006, 04:14 PM	#1
drgrozozo DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 12 Rep Power: 0	DSP Plugins Order Hi, I could't find reference to dsp plugins order so I'll ask here... I have girder that controls line in, as tv tuner remote. If i clear dsp and add prologue and epilogue, connect ac97, i get tv tuner sound, but it isn't controllable by remote. If i clear dsp and add epilogue and then prologue, it works. How is the order of plugins important? Thanks in advance

Apr 8, 2006, 06:45 PM	#2
Chester01 HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: St. Cloud, MN Posts: 492 Rep Power: 0	I am not posative this answers your question but it may be related. If you right click in the DSP and click Advanced Options, whenever you load a plugin you have the option menu come up that says : "Translate Plugin", you have the suboptions of Position: don't care, After Microcode, and Before Microcode. I would assume that the order you are loading the plugins is influencing their "position" in the microcode. Try using the Advanced Options and see if it makes a difference where in the microcode you place the plugins... Good luck! __________________ COMP: Dual Intel PIII 733 Mhz; GeForce 4 Ti 4600; 1.128 Gb RAM; SB0350 (Audigy 2 ZS Platnium) STEREO(I UPGRADED):Crown Audio K1 and K2 amplifiers (4000 watts at .1% THD ), JL 13w7 Subwoofer (6.5 CF) (2) 18" PR's, Klipsch SB-1's, some cement blocks for speaker stands...

Apr 8, 2006, 08:03 PM	#4
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,561 Rep Power: 62	You need to create different automation settings for different DSP configs, as the plugin order is relevant (at least in the way that the automation settings are saved). Think about plugins that can be loaded multiple times, if the automation settings did not take the ordering into account, then how would it know which instance of the plugin you mean to control? ... Last edited by Russ; Apr 8, 2006 at 08:10 PM.

Apr 10, 2006, 08:13 PM	#14
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,561 Rep Power: 62	For compression there is the e-Compressor. Last edited by Russ; Apr 10, 2006 at 08:47 PM. Reason: typo

Apr 8, 2006, 07:40 PM	Thread Starter #3
drgrozozo DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 12 Rep Power: 0	thanks man, tried that first, and it didn't influence the result i compared settings files, the only differences were offset fields and first 2 ports of prolog, not that it meant much to me since i couldn't find reference for either one (if connections and mixer settings are the same, should these be the same?) anyway, if it's nothing common, it might just be a bug with my version of drivers or setup

Apr 8, 2006, 08:46 PM	Thread Starter #5
drgrozozo DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 12 Rep Power: 0	well i will probably talk nonsense since i never used automation before but isn't that something about midi? i think i have problem with dsp routing or something. anyway, here's my problem again: clean dsp. when i add prolog-epilog then the line-in in mixer has values (-94 to 12) and it ain't controllable by girder. when i add epilog-prolog then the line-in in mixer has values (0 to 100) and it is controllable by girder. i checked routing, and plugin positions after/before microcode, i'll check automation too if i can grasp concept of it

Apr 8, 2006, 09:38 PM	#8
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,561 Rep Power: 62	Currently the only other option (for ProFX or other plugins) is using kX Automation (allows control of plugin parameters using MIDI/SysEx messages), but I do not know if that can be done from girder.

Apr 8, 2006, 10:04 PM	#9
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,561 Rep Power: 62	BTW: Personally, I would not adjust the Line In volume, to control the TV volume (other then mute). I would set the Line In volume to a fixed value (as well as the TV volume), such that it is an optimal value for the dynamic range of the signal, and then control it using the Master Volume, or another plugin (to reduce noise and prevent clipping). i.e. I set my cable box's volume to optimal stereo (so it is a fixed value), and then adjust Line In to the appropriate level, and use the Master Volume to adjust the level that is output to the speakers, etc.

Apr 9, 2006, 12:17 PM	#11
miguel DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 209 Rep Power: 0	I think what Russ was referring to is the inherent noise of the line-in input. If For example you input your tv audio at unnecessarily low volume just to amplify it later down the signal path you'll be amplifying that inherent noise too. As a general rule, get you signals into the card as hot as possible (without overloading the line-in) and only use the DSP for attennuating the signal before output to your speakers. This should give you the best signal to noise ratio.

Apr 9, 2006, 08:40 PM	#12
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,561 Rep Power: 62	Yes, what miguel said is basically what I meant, with the addition that you want to make sure it doesn't clip either, as that will add distortion. i.e. Make sure that when the TV signal (the signal itself, not via the volume control) is at its loudest (like most commercials that are jacked way up), you want to make sure that the level (on a peak meter in the DSP), does not exceed 0 dB. Basically, what you would want to do, is to find the optimal volume for the signal going into Line In, in conjunction with the optimal level for Line In itself, such that it is as loud as possible, without clipping, and without increasing the noise floor too much. Once you find those optimal levels, leave those values fixed, and only attenuate the signal to your speakers (i.e. Master Volume does not amplify, it attenuates). When you find the right combination, then you shouldn't have too much trouble with other sounds being too loud (and you can adjust the wave volume seperatley). Some cable boxes (if you are using cable) also have a compression option, that may help on those days when you want to listen quitely and still hear the lower end. Also, there are plugins available as well, to do similair in the DSP. Being able to use the remote control to adjust the TV volume seperatley makes it a little more complicated, but for the best quality sound, you want to start with the optimal signal levels, etc.

Apr 10, 2006, 12:10 PM	Thread Starter #13
drgrozozo DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 12 Rep Power: 0	thanks guys, i get what you're saying. but as i'm using tv tuner card, it's output is directly connected to line-in, and the input signal range it's pretty much out of my control. i didn't think of fixing that with plugins before you've mentioned it, is there any plugin in particular that you're referring to? being used to adjusting every input/output, fixed signal levels concept is new to me, i'll get on it right now, it sure will help recording a lot.