Guitar Chorus?

ROBSCIX · May 12, 2006, 09:18 PM

Hey guys, this is a question for you guitar players out there, I am trying to get the Classic chorus effect for playing guitar that one would get from a stomp box but for some reason I can't seem to get that sound. I am talking about that swoshing sound classic chorus is known for. What am I doing wrong? I am currently putting together a bunch of guitar patches within KX, so I can switch them quickly...

Maddogg6 · May 12, 2006, 10:20 PM

Well - normally a stereo chorus with the 'woosh' sound - (as in hearing this when NOT playing) is normally considered undesirable.
Other than that - a flange (APS) or phasor (Russ') effect may be more what your looking for. With out knowing what device your attempting to emulate, or what settings you've tried its hard to pin point what your doing wrong.

Maybe indicate a particular songs sound your looking for maybe helpful.
Or maybe give a particular device/stompbox your looking to emulate.

Also consider the St chorus that comes with kx seems more aimed at a 'doubling' or 'widener' effect than what some stompbox 'chorus/flange' effects are capable of - as its not trying to cover such a wide range of effect these stompboxes typically do. Or possibly you need to use more than one chorus for a 'multi-voice' effect..??
Or maybe - feed a APS/flanger the output of the chorus.?? As its not uncommon to chain effects in series for different effects.

ROBSCIX · May 12, 2006, 11:36 PM

NO,NO, I know what you mean by hearing that woosh when your NOT playing that's not what I am talking about. I had this old Chorus pedal that had two knobs a "depth" and "speed" Your right the chorus that I have been using doesn't even seem like a chorusing effect. OK have you heard that song by Mr. Big called "green Tinted sixties Mind" when he plays that Tapped chorused part at the intro...that's similar to the chorussing effect I am after. It just seems like when I use the chorus in the KX DSP..I mean the default chorus it's is very light and hard to hear. DO you know what I mean, You play guitar don't you? you have heard chorus boxes that is kinda what I am after..any ideas?

TheKezReturns · May 13, 2006, 12:23 AM

methinks with those old stomps.. the delayed signal is 'lo-fi'ed by the analogue circuit so maybe try split the signal
Send one side to a fully wet APS Flanger'(Like Maddog6 said, that chorus is rubbish for guitar)
Then run that thru a subtle band pass just to roll a tiny bit off the top and bottom and then very slightly drive it with a dist/overdive plug. (Tiger's tubedrive rocks for this if u havent gone 3534f like me.. and it can do the band pass for you.)
Now remix the two manually with a mix plug. keeping it mono will probably sound more 'guitar' too.

In the end... analogue stompers did alot more to the sound than what they were designed to do and clever chaps like line6 are only now getting it right with a bucket full of physical modelling gadgets and serious DSP so ont feel bad if u cant get it..

ROBSCIX · May 13, 2006, 12:47 AM

I can't use 3534F, I can't use any of those version. I don't think it was "rubbish" just a little more pronounced then the one I have now. Maybe it's just settings..I just wanted a opinion of another guitarist that might have more experience with KX DSP then me. There has to be a simple way to get that guitar chorused sound... I am gonna play with my effects this weekend. I think I should be able to get it with some experimentation.

Maddogg6 · May 13, 2006, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX

have you heard that song by Mr. Big called "green Tinted sixties Mind" when he plays that Tapped chorused part at the intro...that's similar to the chorussing effect I am after.

No, Im not familiar with that song - but I have great respect for Paul Gilbert.

I found this link:
http://www.guitaretab.com/m/mr-big/13052.html

The key thing to understand is this:

Quote:

The introduction to this song is very tricky, the first impression you get is that it's some kind of backward tape recording but no!!!, It's just Paul's guitar with distortion and some kind of octave or harmonizer effect (sounding one octave lower or higher) to achieve his unique soloing

Im guessing he used an Evintide to acheive this presumably 'unique' effect - as they were popular with those with the $$$$ ($5K US IIRC) - and those using them claimed they were worth every penny-- ?? One of their strengths were their pitch shifting abilities - thus why I assume that this uint was used... but Im not sure. I also assume who ever wrote that quote - had a clue...

Point is - I doubt it was a simple chorus effect eitherway - I will look for that song so I can hear it for myself.

Lex Nahumury · May 13, 2006, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX

It just seems like when I use the chorus in the KX DSP..I mean the default chorus it's is very light and hard to hear.

Are you sure you mix dry with kX Stereo Chorus's output?
kX Stereo Chorus isn't an 'insert' chorus as stomp box choruses usualy are.
That is; it must be used as an send effect thus mixed with dry signal
in order to hear a decent chorus effect.

/Lex.

Maddogg6 · May 13, 2006, 05:41 AM

I just listened to the song - and dont hear a swooshing effect (closest thing to it is the reversed (open hi-hat sound - or gated with slow attack??) thats panning)
Other than that - sounds like a typical stereo chorus effect to me (maybe multi-tapped??) hard to tell on the system I listened to it on...

ROBSCIX · May 13, 2006, 06:13 PM

Maybe I am just approaching it wrong, Yeah maddogg your correct, I had this sound down along time ago with a chorus..that link you sent me too seems like somebody new to guitar sounds overcomplicating the issue..it is just tapped riff using a stereo chorus. OK, I am gonna set up my guitar rig later it all runs through KX, so I'll mess around and see if I can get it right...I figured I may be using the effect wrong..Any poniters on how I should hook it up? I usually just use PROFX to get the guitar signal in and proFX to get the signal back to the speakers...

OK just for conversation sake, say I send th guitar in and use the stereo chorus in the default setup why wouldn't that work? forgive me guys I am still getting used to the signal routing.

Russ · May 13, 2006, 07:17 PM

As Lemury stated, the output of a chorus effect is meant to be mixed back in with the dry signal, and the Stereo Chorus plugin does not have a wet/dry mix control (because of how it is used with the default DSP configuration), so you need to do it yourself.

Russ · May 13, 2006, 07:39 PM

You can do it several ways, but here is a picture to give the basic idea of the routing:
http://i1.tinypic.com/zlad8p.gif

ROBSCIX · May 13, 2006, 07:45 PM

YEah I figured just adding s tereo mix to the DSP would work like you have there...I am gonna build some custom DSP's today..I have the whole day to practice..I am thinking something a little more simple than that, when I play guitar I use headphones...

Maddogg6 · May 13, 2006, 08:48 PM

Quote:

say I send th guitar in and use the stereo chorus in the default setup why wouldn't that work? forgive me guys I am still getting used to the signal routing.

well, it depends if your using any external distortion as well, this is what it 'sounds like' to me..

Guitar (SRC - clean??) -> Distortion (tube drive??) -> stereo chorus (mixed with straight distortion - as lex and russ was pointing out) -> (reverb station - small room preset) -> (amp).
All effects (except where noted by lex) are all in 'series' - in otherwords - the output of one feeds one input of the next. As opposed to the output of one, feeding multiple inputs.
But also, there are a couple of places that EQ is introduced in that recording (Guitar tone controls, Distortion tone controls and amp/speakers) - so some parametric EQ before and/or after the tube drive, as well as carefull tube drive eq settings, can help 'hone' your tone as well.
But don't discount how much an amp/speaker combination affects the sound as well.
So possibly another eq there (or one after the chorus, or after the reverb)

Edit:

Im off to go play recording engineer for a friend with KX - I will post completed works when done. Its all accoustic stuff btw, but Ill be adding drums and maybe some keys parts?? We'll see.
Im excited to finally record someone else.

ROBSCIX · May 13, 2006, 09:49 PM

I use a external Multi FX box, that works for FX and also a Preamp so I can patch th FX box to th Line_in. The Unit is a Digitech RP100. I will just do a bunch of experimenting to day and see what turns out. I appreciate your help everybody.
@Lex, do you play guitar Lex? I thought you did for some reason?
I have also been reading a little bit on programming, I would like to write my own Distortion/overdrive plugin that will give the user great control over the wave shape and have loads of distortion..atleast that the idea..

Lex Nahumury · May 14, 2006, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ROBSCIX

@Lex, do you play guitar Lex? I thought you did for some reason?

Yes. I play keyboards, guitar, bass and a bit of drums.
That's me playing some e-guitar on the VSTi demo here;
http://www.hardwareheaven.com/effects-dsp/102316-free-acoustic-drumkit-vsti-kx-users-only.html

May 12, 2006, 09:18 PM	#1
ROBSCIX DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,732 Rep Power: 0	Guitar Chorus? Hey guys, this is a question for you guitar players out there, I am trying to get the Classic chorus effect for playing guitar that one would get from a stomp box but for some reason I can't seem to get that sound. I am talking about that swoshing sound classic chorus is known for. What am I doing wrong? I am currently putting together a bunch of guitar patches within KX, so I can switch them quickly...

May 13, 2006, 12:23 AM	#4
TheKezReturns HardwareHeaven Lover Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Gold Coast Australia Posts: 118 Rep Power: 0	methinks with those old stomps.. the delayed signal is 'lo-fi'ed by the analogue circuit so maybe try split the signal Send one side to a fully wet APS Flanger'(Like Maddog6 said, that chorus is rubbish for guitar) Then run that thru a subtle band pass just to roll a tiny bit off the top and bottom and then very slightly drive it with a dist/overdive plug. (Tiger's tubedrive rocks for this if u havent gone 3534f like me.. and it can do the band pass for you.) Now remix the two manually with a mix plug. keeping it mono will probably sound more 'guitar' too. In the end... analogue stompers did alot more to the sound than what they were designed to do and clever chaps like line6 are only now getting it right with a bucket full of physical modelling gadgets and serious DSP so ont feel bad if u cant get it.. Last edited by TheKezReturns; May 13, 2006 at 12:36 AM.

May 13, 2006, 07:45 PM	Thread Starter #12
ROBSCIX DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,732 Rep Power: 0	YEah I figured just adding s tereo mix to the DSP would work like you have there...I am gonna build some custom DSP's today..I have the whole day to practice..I am thinking something a little more simple than that, when I play guitar I use headphones... Last edited by ROBSCIX; May 13, 2006 at 08:04 PM.

May 12, 2006, 10:20 PM	#2
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 0	Well - normally a stereo chorus with the 'woosh' sound - (as in hearing this when NOT playing) is normally considered undesirable. Other than that - a flange (APS) or phasor (Russ') effect may be more what your looking for. With out knowing what device your attempting to emulate, or what settings you've tried its hard to pin point what your doing wrong. Maybe indicate a particular songs sound your looking for maybe helpful. Or maybe give a particular device/stompbox your looking to emulate. Also consider the St chorus that comes with kx seems more aimed at a 'doubling' or 'widener' effect than what some stompbox 'chorus/flange' effects are capable of - as its not trying to cover such a wide range of effect these stompboxes typically do. Or possibly you need to use more than one chorus for a 'multi-voice' effect..?? Or maybe - feed a APS/flanger the output of the chorus.?? As its not uncommon to chain effects in series for different effects.

May 12, 2006, 11:36 PM	Thread Starter #3
ROBSCIX DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,732 Rep Power: 0	NO,NO, I know what you mean by hearing that woosh when your NOT playing that's not what I am talking about. I had this old Chorus pedal that had two knobs a "depth" and "speed" Your right the chorus that I have been using doesn't even seem like a chorusing effect. OK have you heard that song by Mr. Big called "green Tinted sixties Mind" when he plays that Tapped chorused part at the intro...that's similar to the chorussing effect I am after. It just seems like when I use the chorus in the KX DSP..I mean the default chorus it's is very light and hard to hear. DO you know what I mean, You play guitar don't you? you have heard chorus boxes that is kinda what I am after..any ideas?

May 13, 2006, 12:47 AM	Thread Starter #5
ROBSCIX DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,732 Rep Power: 0	I can't use 3534F, I can't use any of those version. I don't think it was "rubbish" just a little more pronounced then the one I have now. Maybe it's just settings..I just wanted a opinion of another guitarist that might have more experience with KX DSP then me. There has to be a simple way to get that guitar chorused sound... I am gonna play with my effects this weekend. I think I should be able to get it with some experimentation.

May 13, 2006, 05:41 AM	#8
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 0	I just listened to the song - and dont hear a swooshing effect (closest thing to it is the reversed (open hi-hat sound - or gated with slow attack??) thats panning) Other than that - sounds like a typical stereo chorus effect to me (maybe multi-tapped??) hard to tell on the system I listened to it on...

May 13, 2006, 06:13 PM	Thread Starter #9
ROBSCIX DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,732 Rep Power: 0	Maybe I am just approaching it wrong, Yeah maddogg your correct, I had this sound down along time ago with a chorus..that link you sent me too seems like somebody new to guitar sounds overcomplicating the issue..it is just tapped riff using a stereo chorus. OK, I am gonna set up my guitar rig later it all runs through KX, so I'll mess around and see if I can get it right...I figured I may be using the effect wrong..Any poniters on how I should hook it up? I usually just use PROFX to get the guitar signal in and proFX to get the signal back to the speakers... OK just for conversation sake, say I send th guitar in and use the stereo chorus in the default setup why wouldn't that work? forgive me guys I am still getting used to the signal routing.

May 13, 2006, 07:17 PM	#10
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,563 Rep Power: 62	As Lemury stated, the output of a chorus effect is meant to be mixed back in with the dry signal, and the Stereo Chorus plugin does not have a wet/dry mix control (because of how it is used with the default DSP configuration), so you need to do it yourself.

May 13, 2006, 07:39 PM	#11
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,563 Rep Power: 62	You can do it several ways, but here is a picture to give the basic idea of the routing: http://i1.tinypic.com/zlad8p.gif

May 13, 2006, 09:49 PM	Thread Starter #14
ROBSCIX DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,732 Rep Power: 0	I use a external Multi FX box, that works for FX and also a Preamp so I can patch th FX box to th Line_in. The Unit is a Digitech RP100. I will just do a bunch of experimenting to day and see what turns out. I appreciate your help everybody. @Lex, do you play guitar Lex? I thought you did for some reason? I have also been reading a little bit on programming, I would like to write my own Distortion/overdrive plugin that will give the user great control over the wave shape and have loads of distortion..atleast that the idea..