Kx plugins in SX ??

fxdfxd

Hi to all Kx team, i would like to say to you that you do a great job for poor musician like me,
now I make some music without 2000$ soundcards, really thanks !!!

I would like to know if it is possible (or will be in a future release) , to see kx plugins loaded in the DSP in a ASIO sequencer like cubase,
this way we could use the Kx plug without any extra CPU load... do you know if it could easily be implanted ?

thanks to you !!



fx

Gonzo

Well,...if you mean to be able to load KX DSP effects directly in Cubase's rack...I don't think so. They're different things at all, and i don't think it would be easy to build a vst wrapper specifically for them...worst yet, it would be a real waste of time...
But what you could easily do, (what I do all the time by the way) is to send specific audio to different asio channels, using cubase's output mixer window, then assign the KX effects there, at the corresponding "prolog" asio outputs, and there you go...DSP effects that doesn't tax your CPU.
I wish only that there would be a better KX Delay, stereo, with filters in the feedback loop and maybe possibly able to get tempo information from a vst host, but I'm dreaming aloud...
These guy have already done an incredible job for us, and I can't find enough words to say how much I appreciate their work!

Gonzo

Obendega

Have you tried exporting a WAV file using this method?

When I export an audio mixdown the Kx DSP effects arn't applied to the WAV file.

I have been trying to get this to work for awhile now. But still no luck...

Gonzo

No...of course not!
Doing an internal "audio mixdown" command won't print the effects to the resultant file, for the simple reason that with the procedure I've described above, you take the audio OUT of Cubase and then what you are hearing, (if you have these ASIO buses connected to any physical output, ahead in the signal path) is a mix of separate ASIO buses, that is made "OUT" of Cubase.
If you want to print this in a wav file, you should record this stream back again in cubase (or other host) in real time.
Get all needed ASIO outputs in KX FXBus, wire whatever fx you need in every one of them and then, submix all with a chain of Stereo Vol faders. The output of this submix goes to Epilog ASIO 0-1 (or the input # you want to use), assign this input in cubase and record.
Take care with the monitoring because if you're not careful you could easily create a feedback path.
If you want it, I can send you a very basic mixer I did in KX DSP, just for this job. It simply mixes together 3 (or 4, I don't remember) stereo signals.

Good Luck
Gonzo

Obendega

Thanks so much for the info! I'm gonna give it a try now...

I'd also like to try that mixer you made. How do you wanna send it? If its really small you could send it to my e-mail. Otherwise I'll give you my icq number.

thanks again!

Gonzo

It's very small, don't recall its size...
Give me a little time because I have it in another PC, and I'll try to send it to you (or post the Dane's code that you can compile in the DSP window).

Gonzo

Here is the Dane's code.
Create a new txt file, copy the code and paste there, save it as "Mixer.da"
Then go to KX DSP and select register Dane plugin, browse for the new file and if everything's correct, it should appear in the list of effects.
Anyway, as I'm not a programmer, neither I know much of DSP, so I'd appreciate if Max, Eugene or Eyagos would be so kind to take a look at the code and make the necessary corrections or additions, because although it works ok for me, maybe I'm wasting resources or using the wrong sentences (I'm particularly in doubt with the ACC3 usage)

; Generated by kX DSP Editor - microcode dump
name "Gonzo's 6 Busses Mixer";
copyright "";
engine "kX";
created "02/03/2003";
guid "927b04c0-3786-11d7-8f73-0080ad19f751";
; Registers
input Bus1L, Bus1R, BusFX2L;
input BusFX2R, BusFX3L, BusFX3R;
input BusFX4L, BusFX4R, BusFX5L;
input BusFX5R, BusFX6L, BusFX6R;
output MainOutL, MainOutR;
control MAINBUS=0x7fffffff, BUS2=0x0, BUS3=0x0;
control BUS4=0x0, BUS5=0x0, BUS6=0x0;
temp B1, B2, B3;
temp B4, B5, B6;
temp tmp1, tmp2

; Code
macs B6 , 0x0, BusFX6L , BUS6 ;
macs B5 , 0x0, BusFX5L , BUS5 ;
macs B4 , 0x0, BusFX4L , BUS4 ;
macs B3 , 0x0, BusFX3L , BUS3 ;
macs B2 , 0x0, BusFX2L , BUS2 ;
macs B1 , 0x0, Bus1L , MAINBUS ;
acc3 tmp1 , B6 , B5 , B4 ;
acc3 tmp2 , B3 , B2 , B1 ;
macs MainOutL , tmp1 , tmp2 , 0x7fffffff;
macs B6 , 0x0, BusFX6R , BUS6 ;
macs B5 , 0x0, BusFX5R , BUS5 ;
macs B4 , 0x0, BusFX4R , BUS4 ;
macs B3 , 0x0, BusFX3R , BUS3 ;
macs B2 , 0x0, BusFX2R , BUS2 ;
macs B1 , 0x0, Bus1R , MAINBUS ;
acc3 tmp1 , B6 , B5 , B4 ;
acc3 tmp2 , B3 , B2 , B1 ;
macs MainOutR , tmp1 , tmp2 , 0x7fffffff;

end

Obendega

Ok. The mixer registred fine.

This is what I did:

I connected the left and right "line in" from the prolog to the L and R Bus 1 of your mixer. Then in the Router I upped the effects slider for ASIO Kx Out 0. Then in the DSP I connected FXbus 0 to one of the inputs on your mixer and connected the outputs of the mixer to the ASIO 0 & 1 of the epilog. The problem is as soon as I upped the volume of the FX bus in your mixer there was feedback.

I am very new to this all so I probably made some horrible mistake in my setup. But I think I am close!

Gonzo

Hi Obendega:
Look...here is my way to connect it.
Put FXBus ASIO 0-1 to MainBuss L-R inputs in the mixer, this should correspond with your Cubase Main Bus output, i.e. the one that is not going to receive any further KX fx processing.
Then each following ASIO pair in FXBus should be connected to the KX effects you want, then each effects stereo outputs should go to the following inputs pairs in the Mixer, then the mixer output goes directly to the front speakers and ASIO 0-1 in the prolog, bypassing the routing unit.
This setup is aimed at Mixing everything with effects.
If you want to record line in live with this, you should add another Stereo Mix unit to the setup that mixes the output from the 6Busses Mixer with the pair of Line IN L-R in the prolog, then the output from this goes to front speakers, and another pair of connections from Line IN in prolog to ASIO 0-1 in epilog, so this way you can hear everything but just record what's coming from LINE IN, and not the whole thing.
I hope I have been useful, it would be much easier to send you a jpg of the complete KX DSP setup, but I have no web space, so if you want it let me know and Ill e-mail it to you. :-)

Good luck
Gonzo

fxdfxd

Hi Gonzo



ok , thank you very much ;-)

That I was thinking is to use the Sb as a dsp card for the effect, so effect would not loading the CPU.

... but with cpu like actual one, 3 Ghz , no problem to run a small reverb ;-)

thanks

see you

fx

Obendega

I sent you a private message with my e-mail Gonzo.

You have been a great help.

Gonzo

Obendega, Check your mail :-)

SkipKent

Howdy!

I'm not sure if this is going to help or not, or if this is even an issue any more, but what the heck.

I had some frustrating moments using a different multitrack recorder (Magix - cheap and I LOVE it, but I digress) in which the wav output of the first track was going into the second track, whereas I only wanted to MONITOR the first track and not include it in the next.

My problem turned out to be a question of specifying separate playback and record channels. I'm sure Cubase does this differently than Magix, but the end result is likely to be the same. If you have both record and playback going to the same kx asio channels (0, 1 for example), you'll get your playback in your recording, and my chocolate in your peanut butter and so on. ; )

Try setting your playback to kx asio channels 4,5 while keeping your record at 0,1. This works for me, although the playback levels on 4,5 are much lower than 0,1 which is a drag, but I think I'll figure that out before long.

Good Luck, and thankyou KX driver team for bringing new life to my old Celeron 450. I can play virtual synths in what feels to me like real time. Now I can buy a new pc instead of an outboard synth...although those Nord's do look tempting!

-skent

Lex Nahumury

Hi Gonzo, try this. It saves alot of those temp gprs, has less code..and does the same.

;----------------------------------
name "Gonzo 6Mix";
copyright "";
engine "kX";
created "02/03/2003";
guid "927b04c0-3786-11d7-8f73-0080ad19f751";
; Registers
input Bus1L, Bus1R, BusFX2L;
input BusFX2R, BusFX3L, BusFX3R;
input BusFX4L, BusFX4R, BusFX5L;
input BusFX5R, BusFX6L, BusFX6R;
output MainOutL, MainOutR;
control MAINBUS=1, BUS2=0, BUS3=0;
control BUS4=0, BUS5=0, BUS6=0;
temp t;

; Code
macs t , 0, BusFX6L , BUS6
macs t , t, BusFX5L , BUS5
macs t , t, BusFX4L , BUS4
macs t , t, BusFX3L , BUS3
macs t , t, BusFX2L , BUS2
macs mainoutl , t, Bus1L , MAINBUS
macs t , 0, BusFX6r , BUS6
macs t , t, BusFX5r , BUS5
macs t , t, BusFX4r , BUS4
macs t , t, BusFX3r , BUS3
macs t , t, BusFX2r , BUS2
macs mainoutr , t, Bus1r , MAINBUS
end;
;----------------------------------------------------------------

Cheers,

/LeMury

Gonzo

Thanks a lot LeMury!
You're becoming another big name here :-)
I'll try your mods when I get to my home, but anyway, I want to say thanks to you for the time and willingness (sorry if it doesn't spell this way) to analyze and improve my crappy design.
I hope it benefits other people here too...

GONZO

Daniel Drummond

Yep, LeMury is becoming one of KX gods...

__________________
www.palcomp3.com.br/ed

Lex Nahumury

>Thanks a lot LeMury! You're becoming another big name here :-)
No problem Gonzo. I just try to contribute that's all.
I have seen your numerous posts in which you have helped a lot of KX users
with your detailed explanations, great screenshots, good example setups, mixers etc.
That deserves much more credit then me writing some code.


>I'll try your mods when I get to my home,....
Ok,..let me know if there's anything wrong or whatever. (It should work fine though)

> but anyway, I want to say thanks to you for the time and willingness (sorry if it doesn't spell this way)
>to analyze and improve my crappy design.
No problem. (Btw,..It wasn't that crappy..)
If you have other code you want me to look at, just let me know.

>I hope it benefits other people here too...
Yes,..that would be nice...


Some other things:
1. I have once coded a quite large Mixer with submixes
(i.e. Send & Return + Recording busses) to avoid the "spagetti" wiring.
To get all those faders lined up nicely and have 'Mute' switches i.e. for Recording,
this has to be done with .dll extension.
I have dropped that 'project' to code other stuff,
but if there is interrest for such mixer I will try to finish it in dll.
What do you think? Any suggestions, design requests etc..?

2. In regard to DSP mixers in general;
I hope that users take care not to mix to 'hot'. (i.e. avoiding clipping)
Keep in mind that all those inputs are simply added together, so clipping can easily occur.
The use of the peak meter is highly recommended.

In analog mixers, all input signals are devided (attenuated) by the total nr. of mixer inputs
to avoid clipping in the summing stage.
This can also be implemented in a dsp mixer, but has some disadvantages and uses more code.
Simplest way for now is to go easy on the sliders and mix wisely.

Regards,

/LeMury

Lex Nahumury

Lol..No Daniel,..I rather stay 'mortal'..
Compared to ppl like Eugene, Max and others I'm just a regular Kx user.

Beeing a musician who likes electronics and programming I'm just thrilled
having a DSP IDE kit to fiddle around with and share knowledge with other users.

It's good to know one's capabilities, ..but it's more important to know one's limitations.
(The latter I have plenty of... )

Thanks for the flowers though,

Regards,

/LeMury

Gonzo

Oh please LeMury...would it be too much to ask you to take away the dust from your mixer's project and share it with us...
I'd wish I'd could program a proper mixer with mutes-selectors buttons on it but I don't know how to write a dll.
So...if you have one half the way there, I (and probably others like me) would be very thankful to put it to good use ;-)
Jokes appart, I've been needing it for long time, that's why I've coded my simple mixer, but because I can't write proper dll's to use switches, I had to use more faders and crossfaders than it would be really neccesary.
Another idea I had some time ago was to program a channel strip, using the already made eq+compressors+my own mixers send-returns, that would be extremely useful for my own recording needs...but unfortunately the only programming languajes I used to know was basic and clipper!...go figure!
Yes...I know i'm old....;-)
I use an old SONY DAT as a half decent AD converter to input the SBLive via s/pdif and having such an input channel strip can help a lot to obtain some quality takes.
Nothing that you can't do with the actual plugins we currently have, but having this in just ONE window would be amazing.

Cheers.
Gonzo

Lex Nahumury

Hi Gonzo,
>.. but because I can't write proper dll's to use switches, I had to use more faders and crossfaders
> than it would be really neccesary.

Ok, but let's see;
If we want a 6 ch.st mixer + Effect Send Bus we still end up with at least 12 faders,.. right?
I.e. 6 inputLevels, and 6 SendLevels. Or do you want 'switches' for the Fx-sends too?

So the "only" advantages of dll here are:
-use switches instead of faders were applicable
-nicer GUI i.e. place and resize of faders etc. ( I'm not gonna do skins)

Also, keep in mind that (even in dll) such mixers require quite a bit GPRs.
So before I start coding it's wise to keep it sane.
(what good is a mixer if we have not enough resources left for FX-es)

I suggest you give me some "Mixer Layout" of what you had in mind.
I.e. nr of channels, busses, what switches etc.
Then I will see what I can do.


>Another idea I had some time ago was to program a channel strip, using the already made
>eq+compressors+my own mixers send-returns.......

Yep, I know what you mean. Integrating dsp effects + mixing enviroment into one plugin.
It can be done, within certain limits, but it's a hell of a job.


>but unfortunately the only programming languajes I used to know was basic and clipper!
>...go figure! Yes...I know i'm old....;-)

Hehehe,..ROFL....

>Nothing that you can't do with the actual plugins we currently have, but having this in just ONE window
>would be amazing.

Yep, having all those control GUIs open can drive you crazy at times.
But, in defend of Kx's approach, as soon as you start 'prefab' things,
you probably loose the flexibility and freedom we have now.
It's the everlasting tradeoff between simplicity and flexibility I guess.

Oh,...almost forgot;..did the re-coded mixer work?

Cheers,

/LeMury

Gonzo

Well...to be honest, I haven't had the chance to test your mixer yet...I've been away from home, working in another town from where I live several days a week, mixing a project for some people and they're using MOTU's, Protools and some other big names in their studio so...sssshhh!....don't say it too loud...If they get to know that in my free time I'm part of a forum about the SB Live, I'd surely be fired! ;-)
Worst yet, I must confess that I love my SBLive and the most part because of KX drivers, particularly the DSP window...
But they'd better not know it.
There are a lot of people that seems to think that the most expensive the hardware you have, the better the final artistic result. And If you're brave enough to mention the word Sound Blaster they'd laugh at your face, and you'd automatically fall several steps down in credibility.
While I know that good things surely help, (I also have a nice Layla in my studio), I've had great result with my humble Live, using it to do pre-production jobs, sampling tasks, virtual instruments and some final more polished things too.

About the mixer layout:
Well...I can't speak for other people needs but my own mixer design 4X2SA fits all my requirements about channels, FX busses, and routings...
You can view it at:
http://www.internet.com.uy/rere/main/index.htm
It's the one in the General Purpose Recording area.
This mixer (and the whole setup) is really versatile for what I use it for.
Some observations:
The crossfaders FX1-FX2, RCL-RFX, RMON-FMON, are there just because I could not program an a/b switch for their respective function. No healthy mind would ever choose an intermediate position between recording with effects printed or completely dry. It's obviously an a/b situation, (not so clear about the FX1-FX2 though).
So here is a possible improvement point. Some switches instead of crossfaders.
Another thing, sometimes while recording from s/pdif I forget to pull down the fader from IN2 (AC97 input) with the result of considerable noise in an otherwise clean signal. So here, pre-input faders, some mute switches would undoubtedly help.
Right now I can't think of another mod I would do to this mixer, but all opinions are welcome.
All I can say is that I've used this setup to record lots of demo (and not so demo) works with success, the key being the ability to send the singer a monitor signal with subtle reverb for making him/her feel comfortable (thanks again Max for your wonderful Reverb), while recording it clean to be able to latter apply the very CPU intensive SIR impulse reverberation.
In my setups page I made other mixers (included the one you've modified), that suits better to other stages in the recording / mixing chain, but as DSP resources are very limited I don't see a point in more than two FX Sends.
I completely agree with you about the tradeoff between flexibility and simplicity and I think that the KX team already made such a incredible work of love and dedication that I feel completely bad about asking anything here :-)
It's just my frustration, being so close to what I need but not really being able to program anything serious what makes me ask for crazy things to people that I know for sure, must be working 20 hours a day to keep the project going on.
So...really ...sorry.

My deepest thanks to you for all this...

Gonzo

Sidhu

u ppl are amazing.

Lex Nahumury

Hi Gonzo,

(hehe,...yeah there's quite some elitisme in 'Audio World')

Anyway;
Here's a prelimanary .KXL test version of the mixer:
http://members.home.nl/nahutec/kxplugins/demo.kxl

I did a small test part for now, cuz it's quite time consuming dll-ing all those sliders/switches and params.
So before I go further I wanna make sure I dont have to change/edit like crazy afterwards.

Some remarks and Q's;

I took a look at your setups. They are ok, but are quite 'dedicated' to specific tasks of course.
My goal is to make a more versatile mixer similar to a normal mixing console.
Hopefully that way one could use the same mixer plugin for different tasks.

For clarity sake, a BUS is always a Summing Bus, a Channel is an Input.
I noticed you labeled 'Channel' as 'BUS'.
I preffer to use the 'standard' labeling. Feel free to comment on this.

Ok,..This thingie has:
1 Main Bus (all inputs summ here)
1 FX Send Bus (all 'Sends' from input channels are summed here)
1 Rec Bus (all 'Rec Selected' input channels are summed here)

-All inputs have a 'Mute'. (It's a total Mute i.e. right at it's input)
-ALL inputs have a 'Rec enable' which is Post Input Fader!!
-All inputs except Returns have a 'FX-Send' fader, also Post Input fader.
-The RECMON switch SWAPS the 'MainOutput' with the 'RecOutput'.
It can be used as a pre-record monitor to check what is gonna be recorded.
Of course it's not wise toggling it during recording..

Q's;
- How many 'real' Inputs with Sends do we need?
- We can also have some pseudo Return/Aux inputs without Sends.
- What do you think of the POST input Fader concept?

Comments, suggestions are welcome.

Cheers,

/LeMury

Gonzo

Hi LeMury!
Wow!...I'm amazed at your work! Thanks a lot!
Sadly, I'll only be able to check it out as I'll return home, on Monday or Thursday, but from what you've described it would be near perfect :-)

Gonzo

P.S: You're right about the usage of the word BUS - Channel, and that my designs are quite task specific. I believe that this wonderful new design, would fit all our needs, so hopefully, I won't a different mixer for every step in the production chain....!!! :-) :-) :-)