Trying to get midi/soundfont stereo seperation

E-money · Jan 15, 2007, 01:21 AM

I'm using Sonar version 2. I've got a Piano soundfont and an organ soundfont loaded, both on seperate tracks, both on seperate midi channels. The piano track is panned hard left, the organ track is panned hard right, but both sounds are coming out of both sides.

I removed the DSP, and redid it with just a SRC>>Stereo Mix>>K2lt, but I get the same results.

I'd really like to seperate the 2 sounds before the go to my Mackie mixer so that I can treat them with outboard fx.

Anybody have any good DSP chains for seperating soundfonts.

Russ · Jan 15, 2007, 03:23 AM

I am not sure why panning is not working for you, but (assuming that you are using the kX Synth's) you can assign the different midi channels to a different FxBus using kX Router.

Maddogg6 · Feb 18, 2007, 06:08 PM

Sory to ressuerect an older thread...

(i seen the reference to the K2lt - and assume the OP has an 10K2 based card - but I maybe wrong here - anyway...

you can also 'send' with midi CC 16-19 - to the FXBUSS ## corresponding to the SEND FX BUSS ROUTING (E-H) in KX Router with A2 cards and not need to make any permanent changes to the KX Router.

But yes - I have found instances where midi pan will 'act weird' - but could never figure out exact instances/circumstances to accurately report it as a bug... and my posts in the past of 'wierd things' tend to go un-noticed/ignored ...so I figured why bother and will only report bugs I can accurately articulate - as I could always work around with a VSTi SF player (sfz+) on the few occasions when it was affecting me.

E-money · Mar 13, 2007, 01:51 AM

I'm still having a hell of a time with this. It seems like it would be pretty simple, pan a track full left and have it only come out of the left side, pan a track full right and have it only come out the right side, but I can't get it to cooperate.

Does anybody have a simple DSP and routing preset that forces certain midi channels left and certain midi channels right.

Maddogg6 · Mar 13, 2007, 02:36 AM

I have doubts its a DSP config - just use the default DSP and try it.

Most likely another track in your sequence is setting the pan on you.
Either (depends on the sequencer your using) :
Select all tracks and look at all events (filter by channel 1 by one and look for 'rogue' pan (MIDI CC#10) or possibly Balance (MIDI CC#8) that might be changing with out your knowing.
OR
Make sure each track is outputting to a unique midi channel (some sequencers may have a problem with 'shared' track MIDI channel assignments. ??)

Also - make sure you have default KX ROUTER settings - in case you made some changes there with out understanding what you were changing.
Hopefully you save the default KX router settings if you did - otherwise a 'Device Reset' may be needed - or maybe a 'Global Reset' to get those defaul KX Router Settings back. But you may need to reload (edit: re-install or re register) any added KX DSP plugins if you do that.
Hint: save all settings @ default values BEFORE making changes in the future.

Maddogg6 · Mar 13, 2007, 02:41 AM

I can upload an A2 config that has the KX synths on FXBuss 28,29 and FXBUSS 30,31 - and all the SENDS set to FXBuss 16-21 (Sends C-H respectively)

I dont have my SBlive card setup for anything but the default config anyway.

edit: Or you can PM and Ill give you an email address you can send your midi file to, and I'll have a look.

Russ · Mar 13, 2007, 08:53 PM

In addition the above, do not forget about the Fx Sends/FxMix2. With the default config, the sends are a mono-mix of all the synth channels, and are sent to both left/right (the amount depends on the slider settings and the FxSend levels). to see if this is your problem, open FxMix2 and set all the sliders to zero. Again, if you want more control over that, then you need to use a custom DSP and maybe custom kX Router settings.

E-money · Mar 17, 2007, 02:07 AM

More info...
The problem isn't everything in mono, the organ track pans whereever I place it; I can pan it far right or left and only hear it out of the left or right speaker. The piano does not behave in the same way, tt always plays out of both speakers. The volume on either side will vary depending how it is panned, but there's no way I can get it isolated. This performance is the same with the default DSP or customem DSP, so I don't think it's a DSP issue. The problem occurs with whatever soundfont I assign to this particular midi track within Sonar, so it appears that the issue is somewhere on this track. I've combed through the event list, the only control messages are from my sustain pedal. I tried inserting a pan control and a balance envelope, but I still get the same issues. Changing the midi channel does not appear to fix it either.

Russ · Mar 17, 2007, 02:37 AM

We are talking about the kX Synths here, right (not some SoftSynth, or VSTi, or something else)?

Maddogg6 · Mar 17, 2007, 02:51 AM

Quote:

The problem occurs with whatever soundfont I assign to this particular midi track within Sonar, so it appears that the issue is somewhere on this track.

This is a curious statement - are you certain - even if its a SF you *can* pan?

OR - are there ANY tracks set as 'any' midi channel - in other words - is another tracks CC's (with an event whos midi channel is set to affect the channel your having problems with)

For additional clarity - we have multiple ways of 'assiging' midi channels.
1) what midi channel we record midi events - any track in sonar can contain multiple midi channel events
2) over-riding a tracks midi event channel (as recorded) with one set for that track.

If you dont do #2 - other tracks can interfere with another track - like re-select a patch un-expectedly, or set a volume or pan.

Inormally record everything with channel 1 (with track input set for OMNI input) - and override the midi out channel by setting a track to a particular midi channel.

Sure seems like this is your head ache to me. And is easily missed and/or mis-understood.

OR

Maybe export as a type 1 midi file and reload it as a test to see if its something borked in Sonar file format. (which also FORCES midi channels to be merged into a common track IIRC)

Mar 13, 2007, 02:36 AM	#5
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 0	I have doubts its a DSP config - just use the default DSP and try it. Most likely another track in your sequence is setting the pan on you. Either (depends on the sequencer your using) : Select all tracks and look at all events (filter by channel 1 by one and look for 'rogue' pan (MIDI CC#10) or possibly Balance (MIDI CC#8) that might be changing with out your knowing. OR Make sure each track is outputting to a unique midi channel (some sequencers may have a problem with 'shared' track MIDI channel assignments. ??) Also - make sure you have default KX ROUTER settings - in case you made some changes there with out understanding what you were changing. Hopefully you save the default KX router settings if you did - otherwise a 'Device Reset' may be needed - or maybe a 'Global Reset' to get those defaul KX Router Settings back. But you may need to reload (edit: re-install or re register) any added KX DSP plugins if you do that. Hint: save all settings @ default values BEFORE making changes in the future. Last edited by Maddogg6; Mar 13, 2007 at 02:45 AM. Reason: made idea clearer

Mar 13, 2007, 02:41 AM	#6
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 0	I can upload an A2 config that has the KX synths on FXBuss 28,29 and FXBUSS 30,31 - and all the SENDS set to FXBuss 16-21 (Sends C-H respectively) I dont have my SBlive card setup for anything but the default config anyway. edit: Or you can PM and Ill give you an email address you can send your midi file to, and I'll have a look. Last edited by Maddogg6; Mar 13, 2007 at 02:50 AM. Reason: typo

Mar 17, 2007, 02:37 AM	#9
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,563 Rep Power: 62	We are talking about the kX Synths here, right (not some SoftSynth, or VSTi, or something else)? Last edited by Russ; Mar 17, 2007 at 02:51 AM.

Jan 15, 2007, 01:21 AM	#1
E-money DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3 Rep Power: 0	Trying to get midi/soundfont stereo seperation I'm using Sonar version 2. I've got a Piano soundfont and an organ soundfont loaded, both on seperate tracks, both on seperate midi channels. The piano track is panned hard left, the organ track is panned hard right, but both sounds are coming out of both sides. I removed the DSP, and redid it with just a SRC>>Stereo Mix>>K2lt, but I get the same results. I'd really like to seperate the 2 sounds before the go to my Mackie mixer so that I can treat them with outboard fx. Anybody have any good DSP chains for seperating soundfonts.

Jan 15, 2007, 03:23 AM	#2
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,563 Rep Power: 62	I am not sure why panning is not working for you, but (assuming that you are using the kX Synth's) you can assign the different midi channels to a different FxBus using kX Router.

Feb 18, 2007, 06:08 PM	#3
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 0	Sory to ressuerect an older thread... (i seen the reference to the K2lt - and assume the OP has an 10K2 based card - but I maybe wrong here - anyway... you can also 'send' with midi CC 16-19 - to the FXBUSS ## corresponding to the SEND FX BUSS ROUTING (E-H) in KX Router with A2 cards and not need to make any permanent changes to the KX Router. But yes - I have found instances where midi pan will 'act weird' - but could never figure out exact instances/circumstances to accurately report it as a bug... and my posts in the past of 'wierd things' tend to go un-noticed/ignored ...so I figured why bother and will only report bugs I can accurately articulate - as I could always work around with a VSTi SF player (sfz+) on the few occasions when it was affecting me.

Mar 13, 2007, 01:51 AM	Thread Starter #4
E-money DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3 Rep Power: 0	I'm still having a hell of a time with this. It seems like it would be pretty simple, pan a track full left and have it only come out of the left side, pan a track full right and have it only come out the right side, but I can't get it to cooperate. Does anybody have a simple DSP and routing preset that forces certain midi channels left and certain midi channels right.

Mar 13, 2007, 08:53 PM	#7
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,563 Rep Power: 62	In addition the above, do not forget about the Fx Sends/FxMix2. With the default config, the sends are a mono-mix of all the synth channels, and are sent to both left/right (the amount depends on the slider settings and the FxSend levels). to see if this is your problem, open FxMix2 and set all the sliders to zero. Again, if you want more control over that, then you need to use a custom DSP and maybe custom kX Router settings.

Mar 17, 2007, 02:07 AM	Thread Starter #8
E-money DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 3 Rep Power: 0	More info... The problem isn't everything in mono, the organ track pans whereever I place it; I can pan it far right or left and only hear it out of the left or right speaker. The piano does not behave in the same way, tt always plays out of both speakers. The volume on either side will vary depending how it is panned, but there's no way I can get it isolated. This performance is the same with the default DSP or customem DSP, so I don't think it's a DSP issue. The problem occurs with whatever soundfont I assign to this particular midi track within Sonar, so it appears that the issue is somewhere on this track. I've combed through the event list, the only control messages are from my sustain pedal. I tried inserting a pan control and a balance envelope, but I still get the same issues. Changing the midi channel does not appear to fix it either.