JGSF

Hi! Sorry, for bugging you again... just some more ideas I had.

Has I have described in another thread I've been using sucessfully kx as a basis for a wireless in-ear monitoring system for my band... but struggling with DSP resources problems.

Right know I am using (besides the compressors and gates in the inputs) 4 Mixy 8x2 and I can't add any more due to DSP resources.

I am pretty happy with the results we are getting, and I must say this is much better than using a real mixer for a lot of reasons (I dare to say it's perfect to work with wireless in-ears):

I have a behringer bcr2000 controller connected to the computer and each band member has a patch in it that controls the corresponding mixer in the DSP.

It's great, because basically all we have to do is grab the controller, take it near each band member and say "here, select your patch and adjust the levels the way you like"

We don't need much more than this for our little band which is nothing more than a hobbie.

Now the downside:

The DSP setup is a mess with all those connections and maybe wasting resources.

(Besides, it took a looong time to assign all those controllers to each mixy and make the corresponding patch in the bcr2000 (and we're only 4) - Not to refer all the cabling adapters I had to build for the analog ins/outs.
And each mixy 8x2 takes A LOT of resources when in fact only one output of each mixy is used, since the in-ears we use operate in mono.)

I choosed mixy 8x2 because it allows to operate in mono mode, panning all the inputs to the center and disabling stereo link, making 16 mono inputs available.

For mono monitoring, you can have at least 8 different outputs out of a single Audigy2 card, each assigned to it's own monitoring system... ( (L/R)*4 ) ...if you have DSP resources for that. And if also use the digital outs, you can have more.

************************************************** **************

My ideia was a version of the mixy 8x2, but making it a mixy 16x1 (mono) (or 16x9?) with at least 8(!) aux buses (main mono out + aux outs).

That would make a much more simple DSP setup, and maybe save a lot of resources...

Sorry for the long post, thanks for reading and for your interest... This is just a suggestion for an usage mode.

[UPDATED]: a scrap, powered by ms-paint -> http://i11.tinypic.com/4dxt2e9.jpg

ZaGhost

Wow, just went back and read the other post..... interesting use of KX.... never would've thought of that. Any problems with the computer introducing noise into the wireless signal? Sounds like a PITA to set up, but after that... good idea...

__________________
Asrock Dual Sata II / AMD Athlon 64 3700+ / 200G + 60G HD's / 1G DDR (2 gigs coming)
KX 3538m / CT4670 & CT4832 / Cubase SX3 / XP-Pro / dual boot, 1 recording, 1 everything else
Behringer UB2442FX-Pro

JGSF

It works great, just make sure you use good quality cables and DI's / preamps when needed.
Some inputs have a noise floor of -70dB, but those can be used for the drum kick monitoring or electric guitars.

ps: scrap updated

Russ

Its a cool idea connecting everything with external controllers, etc, but I do not think such a plugin would be all that useful for most people, as it would use a lot of GPRs (like 180), which would limit what other plugins you could use with it (and people would probably want several different versions of it, with a different number of inputs and outputs, etc).

The plugin itself would not be all that difficult to make, except for the GUI, which could be a PITA to implement.

Also, your picture is hardly drawn to scale. An actual implementation would be a lot larger (i.e. you need room to display the values of all the knobs, etc).

i.e.
Here is a picture I made to give an idea of what the actual size of such a plugin *might* look like. An actual implementation would probably be even larger (i.e. the title bar and preset bar are not included in the picture, etc).

JGSF

Hey, very nice GUI!

Well, I also don't think there's a lot of people using kX for live gigs, but I also think it's because they are not aware of what it can do. I've been using it for 4 years and I do not know any other stuff that can do this, even in the 'pro' segment (I only know Hammerfall's DSP mixer, but I think it doesn't have effects). Besides, the more cards you add, the more inputs you can use (using the SPDIFs to connect the cards, I have 2 audigy's set up, and exchanging 4 channels between each other, something like this: I do an 8 channel mono mix for person A in card 1, send it thru one of the spdifs to the card2, card2 receives it and connects that input to the person's A mixer in card2).

As for the size of the GUI, I think it's not really important how big it gets, because once controlled by the midi controller, there's no need to bring the panel up.

Personally, I have things set up in such a way that I only use a tiny 5" lcd sticked to the computer box to make sure windows started ok, once I see the desktop background colours (In fact, nothing else can be distinguished, lol) I just start operating everything from the bcr2000, after all, I just need to hear to know everything's ok...

But of course, if this takes more resources than 4 mixy 8x2, it might be not worth it. I managed to put in one DSP 4 mixy 8x2 and gates and compressors for each input, and only got 5 ou 6 GPRs left...

Russ

It would definitely use less resources than 4 'Mixy 8x2' plugins (244 -vs- 180), but my point is that getting someone to make it for you might prove difficult, if it is not useful for many people (unless the programmer has some use for it).

JGSF

Sure, I perfectly understand that... I was just asking, *if* possible...

It's very good the way it is now too and it's perfectly usable.

Anyway, I'm glad you liked my idea...

JohnN

@Russ - what about the infamous 64 parameter limit?

(Recall my 16 channel mixer?)

This idea will need double that - or am I missing something?

BR
JN

__________________
AMD 64 skt 939 4000+, 2G DDR, XFX6800GT, 80G + 200G, Audigy2 Value, IKEA room

Lex Nahumury

Has been fixed in latest driver release(s).

JohnN

Right!
I'll have to reinstall M, then.
I tried it previously but then had some MIDI stalls; may have been coincidence.

BR
JN

__________________
AMD 64 skt 939 4000+, 2G DDR, XFX6800GT, 80G + 200G, Audigy2 Value, IKEA room

JohnN

@OP

I've been pondering this and might try it.
A few questions, though.
If I understand correctly, the GUI is completely irrelevant since you don't control the mix using Windows / DSP - it's all from the BCR2000, yes?
So, do you need VU meters?
Do you need input / output labels?
Do you need digital values on each control?

I see you've got mutes on each input, but would an Aux output mute be useful?
(Assuming it's assignable on the BCR2000)

Finally, which version of kX do you have? 3538M?

I have already done a 20 to 2 mixer with 2 aux sends, mutes & solos, so it just looks like an extention to that !

BR
JN

__________________
AMD 64 skt 939 4000+, 2G DDR, XFX6800GT, 80G + 200G, Audigy2 Value, IKEA room

JGSF

Hi!

Ok, here it goes:

- GUI is irrelevant, since the plugin will be controlled by midi. Just the knobs and digital values below are enough (can you make the values display between 0 and 127 to match midi values scale?). Just too see more easily what's going on if needed.

- Vu meters aren't needed as well, nor in/out labels (you mean by labels user-entered names for the channels, right?). Something static like ch1, ch2, ch1aux1,ch1aux2 is enough...

- If it saves significant resources, mute and solo controls can be left out as well, as they probably will almost never be used (in my case, that is). I'd rather set the unused channels levels to 0. If it has little impact in the resources... That's a lot of mutes/solos for you to code... Anyway, I don't have mutes/solos assigned in the bcr2000, just the volumes.

- I am using 3538m drivers.

Thanks for your time.

ps: if the GUI is the part that will take most of the work, I don't mind if you just code the 16 channels and 8 post send aux buses for each with no GUI at all, as long as their volume amounts are assignable to midi...

JGSF

Hum, I've been reading the documentation and things are a bit clearer to me now...
I thought it was A LOT harder (I'm not saying it's easy, what I am doing is probably the most simple thing).

I guess I was intimidated by the word "microcode".

I thought that mixing two channels would take a bunch different instructions (and there's only 16?!).

I think I can do this myself... But, before things get even more messy, I would like to ask you for some advices.

I've coded this:


input ch1,ch2,ch3,ch4,ch5,ch6,ch7,ch8,ch9,ch10,ch11,ch12 ,ch13,ch14,ch15,ch16;
output main,aux1,aux2,aux3,aux4,aux5,aux6,aux7,aux8;

;main controls
control main_V,ch1_V,ch2_V,ch3_V,ch4_V,ch5_V,ch6_V,ch7_V,c h8_V,ch9_V,ch10_V,ch11_V,ch12_V,ch13_V,ch14_V,ch15 _V,ch16_V;

;aux1 controls
control aux1_V,ch1_aux1,ch2_aux1,ch3_aux1,ch4_aux1,ch5_aux 1,ch6_aux1,ch7_aux1,ch8_aux1,ch9_aux1,ch10_aux1,ch 11_aux1,ch12_aux1,ch13_aux1,ch14_aux1,ch15_aux1,ch 16_aux1;

temp main_mix;
temp aux1_mix;

temp ch1_final;
temp ch2_final;
temp ch3_final;
temp ch4_final;
temp ch5_final;
temp ch6_final;
temp ch7_final;
temp ch8_final;
temp ch9_final;
temp ch10_final;
temp ch11_final;
temp ch12_final;
temp ch13_final;
temp ch14_final;
temp ch15_final;
temp ch16_final;

;MAIN********************************************* *************;

macs ch1_final, 0x0, ch1, ch1_V;
macs ch2_final, 0x0, ch2, ch2_V;
macs ch3_final, 0x0, ch3, ch3_V;
macs ch4_final, 0x0, ch4, ch4_V;
macs ch5_final, 0x0, ch5, ch5_V;
macs ch6_final, 0x0, ch6, ch6_V;
macs ch7_final, 0x0, ch7, ch7_V;
macs ch8_final, 0x0, ch8, ch8_V;
macs ch9_final, 0x0, ch9, ch9_V;
macs ch10_final, 0x0, ch10, ch10_V;
macs ch11_final, 0x0, ch11, ch11_V;
macs ch12_final, 0x0, ch12, ch12_V;
macs ch13_final, 0x0, ch13, ch13_V;
macs ch14_final, 0x0, ch14, ch14_V;
macs ch15_final, 0x0, ch15, ch15_V;
macs ch16_final, 0x0, ch16, ch16_V;

acc3 main_mix,ch1_final,ch2_final,ch3_final;
acc3 main_mix,main_mix,ch4_final,ch5_final;
acc3 main_mix,main_mix,ch6_final,ch7_final;
acc3 main_mix,main_mix,ch8_final,ch9_final;
acc3 main_mix,main_mix,ch10_final,ch11_final;
acc3 main_mix,main_mix,ch12_final,ch13_final;
acc3 main_mix,main_mix,ch14_final,ch15_final;
acc3 main_mix,main_mix,ch16_final,0;

macs main, 0x0, main_mix, main_V;

;AUX1 (aux buses are affected by main channel's levels, it's intentional)************************************** ********************;

macs aux1_mix,0,ch1_final,ch1_aux1;
macs aux1_mix,aux1_mix,ch2_final,ch2_aux1;
macs aux1_mix,aux1_mix,ch3_final,ch3_aux1;
macs aux1_mix,aux1_mix,ch4_final,ch4_aux1;
macs aux1_mix,aux1_mix,ch5_final,ch5_aux1;
macs aux1_mix,aux1_mix,ch6_final,ch6_aux1;
macs aux1_mix,aux1_mix,ch7_final,ch7_aux1;
macs aux1_mix,aux1_mix,ch8_final,ch8_aux1;
macs aux1_mix,aux1_mix,ch9_final,ch9_aux1;
macs aux1_mix,aux1_mix,ch10_final,ch10_aux1;
macs aux1_mix,aux1_mix,ch11_final,ch11_aux1;
macs aux1_mix,aux1_mix,ch12_final,ch12_aux1;
macs aux1_mix,aux1_mix,ch13_final,ch13_aux1;
macs aux1_mix,aux1_mix,ch14_final,ch14_aux1;
macs aux1_mix,aux1_mix,ch15_final,ch15_aux1;
macs aux1_mix,aux1_mix,ch16_final,ch16_aux1;

macs aux1, 0x0, aux1_mix, aux1_V;


Before I go on:

- Is it this algorithm ok for mixing all those channels? Any possible problems? Any suggestion?

- How do I make the faders behave in a more "linear" way? This way, most of the volume changes occurs between 0 and 15%...

- Can I reduce the size of the GUI faders in dane editor (imagine 17*9 standard faders in my screen )?

Russ

Yes, the instruction set is not that complicated.

But, I would probably do somthing more like this (uses only 1 temp):

; ch1
macs tmp, 0x0, ch1, ch1_V;
macs aux1, 0x0, tmp, ch1_aux1_V;
macs aux2, 0x0, tmp, ch1_aux2_V;
macs aux3, 0x0, tmp, ch1_aux3_V;
macs aux4, 0x0, tmp, ch1_aux4_V;
macs aux5, 0x0, tmp, ch1_aux5_V;
macs aux6, 0x0, tmp, ch1_aux6_V;
macs aux7, 0x0, tmp, ch1_aux7_V;
macs aux8, 0x0, tmp, ch1_aux8_V;
acc3 main, tmp, 0x0, 0x0;

;ch2
macs tmp, 0x0, ch2, ch2_V;
macs aux1, aux1, tmp, ch2_aux1_V;
macs aux2, aux2, tmp, ch2_aux2_V;
macs aux3, aux3, tmp, ch2_aux3_V;
macs aux4, aux4, tmp, ch2_aux4_V;
macs aux5, aux5, tmp, ch2_aux5_V;
macs aux6, aux6, tmp, ch2_aux6_V;
macs aux7, aux7, tmp, ch2_aux7_V;
macs aux8, aux8, tmp, ch2_aux8_V;
acc3 main, main, tmp, 0x0;

;ch3
macs tmp, 0x0, ch3, ch3_V;
macs aux1, aux1, tmp, ch3_aux1_V;
macs aux2, aux2, tmp, ch3_aux2_V;
macs aux3, aux3, tmp, ch3_aux3_V;
macs aux4, aux4, tmp, ch3_aux4_V;
macs aux5, aux5, tmp, ch3_aux5_V;
macs aux6, aux6, tmp, ch3_aux6_V;
macs aux7, aux7, tmp, ch3_aux7_V;
macs aux8, aux8, tmp, ch3_aux8_V;
acc3 main, main, tmp, 0x0;

; ...

;main
macs main, 0x0, main, main_V;
macs aux1, 0x0, aux1, main_V;
macs aux1, 0x0, aux1, main_aux1_V;
macs aux2, 0x0, aux2, main_V;
macs aux2, 0x0, aux2, main_aux2_V;
macs aux3, 0x0, aux3, main_V;
macs aux3, 0x0, aux3, main_aux3_V;
macs aux4, 0x0, aux4, main_V;
macs aux4, 0x0, aux4, main_aux4_V;
macs aux5, 0x0, aux5, main_V;
macs aux5, 0x0, aux5, main_aux5_V;
macs aux6, 0x0, aux6, main_V;
macs aux6, 0x0, aux6, main_aux6_V;
macs aux7, 0x0, aux7, main_V;
macs aux7, 0x0, aux7, main_aux7_V;
macs aux8, 0x0, aux8, main_V;
macs aux8, 0x0, aux8, main_aux8_V;

The last part assumes that the master main fader also controls the master aux levels, as with the individual channels.

As for the size of the faders, there is not much you can with that without C++.

Same thing goes for the effective range of the faders, but I think kX Automation gives more control to the top end then the bottom end...

i.e.
I think the volume is calculated something like: MIDI_CC_VALUE * 128 / 16256 which gives an exponential taper (larger steps closer to 0, smaller steps closer to 1 (i.e. the resulting dB values)), which is probably what you would want for a mixer with only 128 possible volume settings. Again, if you wanted to use a different taper, then C++ would be needed.

JohnN

Do you think I would have volunteered if I thought it was hard!




@Russ
That's the approach I would take, too.
Get the contribution of ch1.
Add that to each of the aux1 to aux8 sends
Repeat for input ch2 to ch16.

Only difference was I didn't realise you could use the Aux outs as running accumulators.
I planned to use 8 extra temps as accumulators!

I may still have a go for fun. Trouble is I loaded up 3538m yesterday and lost my latest code version.
I've done that so many times now, you'd think I'd have learnt...
PS I also remember another reason I don't like 3538m, it doesn't support the skin I normally use ! I dislike the electric blue one...

BR
JN

__________________
AMD 64 skt 939 4000+, 2G DDR, XFX6800GT, 80G + 200G, Audigy2 Value, IKEA room

JGSF

Nice... Much more simpler.

I didn't know that as well... Using the outputs as accumulators.
Hum, I'll probably drop the main channels as well and automate your compressor's outputs before the inputs, it's almost the same thing and I'll have more resources left.

I've had some C++ (simple stuff), but I'm clueless about the plugins and the C++ GUI...

- Is there any "ready to go" compiler for this?
- Are there any smaller control templates?

Could any of you post a code example of a custom made GUI for the following? Grab the *.cpp and?

control dummie;

I could do the rest with that little help...

I can't access the plugin "tweak" panel anymore... probably due to the amount of faders it has now...

Thanks.

ps: Lex's CLXGUI looks great, any example available?

JGSF

I have found that when this plugin is loaded into a SbLive!'s DSP, its GUI (default) can't be acessed (double-click does nothing), but when loaded it into an Audigy2 it worked fine... strange...

JohnN

Not sure I follow that. Do you have 2 soundcards? (sorry if that's been posted earlier)
If so, you'll find that the Audigy has double the resources available to it. That may be the cause...

As for coding, I too am not a coder at all - I'm a hardware engineer.
But as a starting point, I used the default example (can't recall the name - I'm at work ATM). This showed how to do some simple C bits and worked as a template.

On top of that I had to dig deep into the documentation to find out how to skin. Then into other applications to create rotatary knobs in place of faders, etc.
So my work is a Frankenstein of bits from about 4 other plug-ins!

I'll try and find some time over the weekend to help out.

BR
JN

__________________
AMD 64 skt 939 4000+, 2G DDR, XFX6800GT, 80G + 200G, Audigy2 Value, IKEA room

JGSF

Actually I have a bunch of kx cards (Live's, Audigy1's, Audigy2's), distributed by 3 machines, besides the other professional cards. They always come in hand.

In the computer I'm learning how to code, I only had a SbLive installed, but yesterday I put in it one of the spare Audigy2 to make the settings I would need (since It's for use in Audigy's).

What I meant whas that the plugin works in both cards, but if you try to access its tweak panel in the SbLive's DSP, you can't, double clicking does nothing. But when it's loaded into the Audigy's DSP, it works ok, the (huge) tweak panel shows ok.

That is the standard panel that it's created automatically.

As for the SDK... It'll take time...

JohnN

After a dumb copy/paste error in the DANE, been going OK.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/john.ni...kX/kxpoint.jpg

16 inputs with no master controls. Can change if you wish.
Added master to each AUX output.
160 registers.

Shall I carry on?
Any particular requirement graphics-wise?
I can always supply the basic file and allow you to add your own.

EDIT url fixed
:-)

BR
JN

__________________
AMD 64 skt 939 4000+, 2G DDR, XFX6800GT, 80G + 200G, Audigy2 Value, IKEA room

JGSF

Cool...

It's perfect that way, could you just add some labels on top of each knob column? (like 1,2,3,4 or ch1, ch2, ch3...)

The only difference in my code is that I also dropped the main level for each aux, using only 152 registers total (I can always use a Level plugin in the output).

As for me, I have managed to compile the fx_demo and I'm messing around with the code now, creating some controls and making sure the GUI reacts to automation and displays values... I can do this, but if you want to finish yours anyway... I'll be using the standard GUI.

Man... the graphics part IS the hardest thing...

Cheers!

JGSF

enough for today...

http://i12.tinypic.com/47j89s8

(yeah, it's ugly but I'm not counting on seing it often either... )


I need help to solve a problem with automation implementation before I go on...
I've set the sliders to go from 0 to 127, but if I automate them,
they remain at 0 until the controller reaches the value 64 and above that they remain at 1.
What could it be?

I even tried with KX_FXPARAM_PERCENT, but it didn't solve it...

edit: Arrr! I feel the need of swearing! I was doing it correctly, the problem was that the automation kept the previous settings and not the ones I was compiling... didn't notice it!!

edit2:

here it is for some testing...

click

Russ

It is good to see more people trying to develop plugins themselves (it's no so bad, right?).


BTW:
It looks like you went with the same/similair taper? If you want something more linear (in dB), you might consider something like the following:

The above would give a range (1-127, 0 = muted) of -126 dB to 0 db in steps of 1 dB.

That might be more range than you need, so maybe use steps of 0.5 dB:
This would give you a range (1-127, 0 = muted) of -63 dB to 0 dB in steps of 0.5 dB.

In any case, that is just a couple of examples, use whatever you want (of course).

@JohnN
Looks good

JohnN

I planned to add input labels; they are just graphics on the main background image.

I also left off the "aux master" controls at the start. But as I did the DANE I got the feeling that they were needed. Also, if you plan to add them by some other means anyway, it makes sense to me to have them in the same plug-in. I image it would use less resources to have one large plug-in over 2 smaller ones...but that's only a guess !

BR
JN

__________________
AMD 64 skt 939 4000+, 2G DDR, XFX6800GT, 80G + 200G, Audigy2 Value, IKEA room

townkat

Hi,
It's nice to see that someone use my plugin (i made mixy , with the help of some users from this forum of corse). I actualy have used 4x2 more cus my setup was less complicated. I don't have my sblive now anymore, i gaved it to a friend while i bough an Audiophile 192. I must say that i am not very impresed with the Audiophille, people overlike them. The only benefit is the 24 bit balanced analog input, in rest it feels cheaper and less complex than my old sblive + kx.
Good luck and happy programing

__________________
mixy kx plugins
http://mixy.0fees.net/

JohnN

Wanna give this a try?

Picture:-
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/john.ni...kX/kxpoint.jpg

Plugin
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/john.ni...kX/kxpoint.zip

Only AUX1 inputs 1 to 16 have support for automation. Try it, if it's OK I can add the rest.

Having much trouble building ATM. M$VC6 hangs at the "creating browse info" stage.
Any ideas welcome!

BR
JN

__________________
AMD 64 skt 939 4000+, 2G DDR, XFX6800GT, 80G + 200G, Audigy2 Value, IKEA room

Russ

Try choosing 'Clean' from the build menu, and when that completes try recompiling.

JGSF

Cool!

JohnN

The last couple of builds last night I did this and it did appear to help.
I was also just "rebuilding dll" rather than "rebuild all".

/hijack

BR
JN

__________________
AMD 64 skt 939 4000+, 2G DDR, XFX6800GT, 80G + 200G, Audigy2 Value, IKEA room

JGSF

(edited: solved, wrong name in da_demo.cpp)