kX amp sim?

cerendir · Jun 20, 2007, 02:05 PM

(ugh, what did they do to this forum? I've been browsing it for 15 minutes and I'm already getting a headache...)

Anyway, hi everyone.

I've been thinking of (finally) exploring the capacities of my Live!'s DSP a bit more, so I'm wondering: is there possibly some nice amp sim plugin for kX available?

TIA

cerendir · Jun 20, 2007, 02:40 PM

Bah... brain fart. What I meant was speaker sim, nothing else. The TubeDrive is obviously an amp sim, I'm looking for something to add after it that is able to simulate speaker cabinets and generally gives you more control over the sound. If there is such a thing

thomasabarnes · Jun 20, 2007, 04:08 PM

There's Amplitube, but that's a VST and not kX specific. It's a nice amp/cabinet sim.

cerendir · Jun 21, 2007, 07:40 AM

Well, I already have a few decent VST amp/speaker sims, I was kind of hoping for some kX DSP plugin instead. But thanks for the suggestion.

**dj_stick** · Jun 21, 2007, 08:48 AM

it's a nice idea, though i doubt the 10kX DSP has the power required to make a nice sounding sim, especially when there are plenty of such sims available already

Tril · Jun 22, 2007, 01:01 AM

I don't think it has enough ressources because I tried to do that kind of stuff before. One way to achieve that is to get the impulse response of a speaker system and use it in a FIR filter. The DSP does not have enough ressources to use big FIR filters.

Lex Nahumury · Jun 22, 2007, 02:27 AM

It's absolutly possible to make a convincing guitar amp+cab simulation in kX DSP.
The cab is not the real problem (there are other methods besides FIR).
The only real limitation in using kx DSP for Guitar amp sim stuff
is that there is no way to to get get rid of the alliasing caused by the non-linearities.

Still, it can sound very usable;
Lead guitar on the demo song in this thread is entirely kX DSP.
http://www.hardwareheaven.com/847110-post29.html

cerendir · Jun 22, 2007, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lex Nahumury

It's absolutly possible to make a convincing guitar amp+cab simulation in kX DSP.
The cab is not the real problem (there are other methods besides FIR).
The only real limitation in using kx DSP for Guitar amp sim stuff
is that there is no way to to get get rid of the alliasing caused by the non-linearities.

Still, it can sound very usable;
Lead guitar on the demo song in this thread is entirely kX DSP.
http://www.hardwareheaven.com/847110-post29.html

Thanks for clearing that up, Lex (not that I know what "alliasing caused by the non-linearities" means, but anyway

). It's not really a problem using some VST plug for the speaker simulation, I just thought it would be cool if it was possible to do it all in the DSP.

And yes, that is a nice lead sound. I'm also thinking of using the DSP for some material I'm working on to get a broader palette of sounds to choose from if nothing else (I'm sick of my old preamp). Only problem I'm noticing with TubeDrive is that it's kind of noisy... lotsa hiss. I've been playing around with one of the kX noise gate but I'm finding that it's not really subtle enough, it chokes the sound to much no matter how I set it up.

Maddogg6 · Jun 22, 2007, 04:14 PM

you can improve the noise problem buy using a simple pre-amp between the guitar and sound cards input. And using a gate.

I've had slight/small success with amp/cab sim in kX - by adding additional EQ/filters after the tubeamp plugin - set to simulate the freq response and resonance characteristics of a cabinet - but not as good as what Lex shows us - so I just went back to using my external fx unit that does the amp/cabinet simulation better than my attempts in kX.

I attempted to make a single Dane that basically combined a bunch of eq with hard coded freq & Q settings (to optimize resources used) - but found I just don't have the knowledge and/or patients for that stuff (programming in general). And decided I would stick to the things I feel I excel more at - and causes less damage to my walls

- Using the plugins/stuff I do have.

But my failures is not because of the people here willingness to help - no thats not it - I'm just a programming retard in general despite all the help I have already received here. :s

Lex Nahumury · Jun 22, 2007, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cerendir

Thanks for clearing that up, Lex (not that I know what "alliasing caused by the non-linearities" means, but anyway

). It's not really a problem using some VST plug for the speaker simulation, I just thought it would be cool if it was possible to do it all in the DSP.

And yes, that is a nice lead sound. I'm also thinking of using the DSP for some material I'm working on to get a broader palette of sounds to choose from if nothing else (I'm sick of my old preamp). Only problem I'm noticing with TubeDrive is that it's kind of noisy... lotsa hiss. I've been playing around with one of the kX noise gate but I'm finding that it's not really subtle enough, it chokes the sound to much no matter how I set it up.

1. aliasing occurs when you clip the signal (distortion,fuzz, overdrive etc.).
It produces unpleasant sounding 'ghost notes' if you play high notes.
Overall it gives a bit of a harsh sound.
However things aren't that bad. A lot get's masked by the distorion itself.

2. The noise you talk about doesn't come from Tubedrive (or any DSP clipper for that matter ) itself.
What you hear is the soundcards analog input noise (+ analog noise from external equipment) that get's amplified a lot by the high gain stages in any clipper.

Use Low noise external preamp + try my ProFx Noisegate.
Eitherway; It is posible to get decent guiter tones out of kX which are practicaly noise/hiss free even at large gains (hard rock, metal etc.)

samplehunter · Sep 10, 2007, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lex Nahumury

It's absolutly possible to make a convincing guitar amp+cab simulation in kX DSP.
The cab is not the real problem (there are other methods besides FIR).
...

That's interesting. Do you know more about the non-FIR way to simulate cabs? maybe IIR?
My attempts to translate some IIR formulas into Dane were not successful yet because of no DIV operator in 10kx.

Lex Nahumury · Sep 10, 2007, 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samplehunter

That's interesting. Do you know more about the non-FIR way to simulate cabs? maybe IIR?
My attempts to translate some IIR formulas into Dane were not successful yet because of no DIV operator in 10kx.

I simply use IIR Biquad implementation to approximate diff. cab. responses.(review the many kX EQ and filter plugin sources)
No need for DIV in dane (although a DIV approximation is possible in dane).

Cheers,

/Lex

Max M. · Sep 10, 2007, 07:38 PM

[color=gray]or maybe more convenient "IIR never needs DIV"[/color]

Jun 20, 2007, 02:05 PM	#1
cerendir DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 38 Rep Power: 0	kX amp sim? (ugh, what did they do to this forum? I've been browsing it for 15 minutes and I'm already getting a headache...) Anyway, hi everyone. I've been thinking of (finally) exploring the capacities of my Live!'s DSP a bit more, so I'm wondering: is there possibly some nice amp sim plugin for kX available? TIA __________________ west's nest

Jun 20, 2007, 02:40 PM	Thread Starter #2
cerendir DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 38 Rep Power: 0	Bah... brain fart. What I meant was speaker sim, nothing else. The TubeDrive is obviously an amp sim, I'm looking for something to add after it that is able to simulate speaker cabinets and generally gives you more control over the sound. If there is such a thing __________________ west's nest

Jun 20, 2007, 04:08 PM	#3
thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: USA Posts: 1,375 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	There's Amplitube, but that's a VST and not kX specific. It's a nice amp/cabinet sim. __________________ May a song always touch you in a positive way. SONAR X1D Expanded, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB x2 HDD 7200 rpm My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs

Jun 21, 2007, 07:40 AM	Thread Starter #4
cerendir DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 38 Rep Power: 0	Well, I already have a few decent VST amp/speaker sims, I was kind of hoping for some kX DSP plugin instead. But thanks for the suggestion. __________________ west's nest

Jun 22, 2007, 02:27 AM	#7
Lex Nahumury DH Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,932 Rep Power: 64	It's absolutly possible to make a convincing guitar amp+cab simulation in kX DSP. The cab is not the real problem (there are other methods besides FIR). The only real limitation in using kx DSP for Guitar amp sim stuff is that there is no way to to get get rid of the alliasing caused by the non-linearities. Still, it can sound very usable; Lead guitar on the demo song in this thread is entirely kX DSP. http://www.hardwareheaven.com/847110-post29.html Last edited by Lex Nahumury; Jun 22, 2007 at 02:32 AM.

Jun 22, 2007, 01:01 AM	#6
Tril S-3D enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1,676 Rep Power: 64 System Specs	I don't think it has enough ressources because I tried to do that kind of stuff before. One way to achieve that is to get the impulse response of a speaker system and use it in a FIR filter. The DSP does not have enough ressources to use big FIR filters.

Jun 22, 2007, 04:14 PM	#9
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 0	you can improve the noise problem buy using a simple pre-amp between the guitar and sound cards input. And using a gate. I've had slight/small success with amp/cab sim in kX - by adding additional EQ/filters after the tubeamp plugin - set to simulate the freq response and resonance characteristics of a cabinet - but not as good as what Lex shows us - so I just went back to using my external fx unit that does the amp/cabinet simulation better than my attempts in kX. I attempted to make a single Dane that basically combined a bunch of eq with hard coded freq & Q settings (to optimize resources used) - but found I just don't have the knowledge and/or patients for that stuff (programming in general). And decided I would stick to the things I feel I excel more at - and causes less damage to my walls - Using the plugins/stuff I do have. But my failures is not because of the people here willingness to help - no thats not it - I'm just a programming retard in general despite all the help I have already received here. :s Last edited by Maddogg6; Jun 22, 2007 at 04:29 PM.

Sep 10, 2007, 07:38 PM	#13
Max M. h/h member-shmember Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Evil Empire Posts: 2,639 Rep Power: 69	[color=gray]or maybe more convenient "IIR never needs DIV"[/color]