[Lex Nahumury]

I thought this might be interresting to my fellow DSP enthousiasts;

Symphony™ SoundBite - Affordable Audio DSP Development Kit Product Summary Page

Comes with free dev tools!
Debugging through JTAG via USB.

Very affordable. I bought a couple early this year.
The board is based on a member of the well known 56k DSP chip family
and is equipped with decent AK codecs.

While those who have worked with mot56k before can jump right in,
there might be quite a learning curve for others.
Compared to emu10kx the DSP56371's instruction set can be quite intimidating
as is it's initialization and features.

This thing is very fast.
@48kHz I was able to squeeze several cascaded effect algoritmes like
guitar amp moddeller + Cab.moddeller + Chorus + tremelo + delay + Reverb
etc. into it without any dropouts.
The onboard RAM however is quickly used up by the delay lines.

Although you can program the DSP in C (comes with C compiler),
assembler is still the way to go.

/Lex.

[Max M.]

Btw. there's one more interesting product coming (same Freescale DSP but with additional bite - well, check it out): Line 6 - ToneCore DSP Developer Kit

[Lex Nahumury]

Yes, I've seen that one but it wasn't available (still isn't??)
Besides, I wanted an expandable board (host + LCD, knobs etc.)

Btw; I'm still looking for a suitable (affordable) host processor board.
Any suggestions?

[Russ]

Cool stuff
Thanks for the info.

[Max M.]

For the features/affordability ratio i believe this Freescale's goody is just unbitable by now.
(it's interesting how agressively they decided to get these old good Motorola 563 series back to the market - very good)
I'd really wish i had this one a few years ago.

[Lex Nahumury]

Originally Posted by Max M.

Btw. there's one more interesting product coming (same Freescale DSP but with additional bite - well, check it out): Line 6 - ToneCore DSP Developer Kit

I wunder if these devices use a host cpu for reading out those pots/controls and parameter calculation.
I doubt it's all done in the dsp.
Did you find any specs/technical info?

[Russ]

I do not think so, that would seem to defeat the purpose of making it stomp box. From the info on that page, it sounds like it only needs to be connected to the PC for programming.

[Max M.]

From what i've heard/read it has "some" MCU to handle this - but nothing in detail
(just some "on-board Freescale microcontroller")

[Russ]

The following document has a little more info:
http://www.freescale.com/files/ftf_2...e6.pdf?fsrch=1

[Lex Nahumury]

Originally Posted by Russ

I do not think so, that would seem to defeat the purpose of making it stomp box. From the info on that page, it sounds like it only needs to be connected to the PC for programming.

Sorry, you misunderstood; most if not all such digital audio devices use a seperate build-in host cpu to support the DSP. (not a PC)
Non audio tasks like MIDI interface, control readout and parameter calculation etc. are handled by that host cpu.

PS:
Yes, MCU actually since it has all the periphial components and RAM/ROM integrated.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Lex Nahumury

Sorry, you misunderstood; most if not all such digital audio devices use a seperate build-in host cpu. (not a PC)
Non audio tasks like MIDI interface, control readout and parameter calculation etc. are handled by that host cpu.

Yeah, sorry, I misunderstood the term host.
In any case, the above document shows the MCU info (Flexis MC9S08JM).

[Lex Nahumury]

Originally Posted by Russ

In any case, the above document shows the MCU info (Flexis MC9S08JM).

Ah yes see on page 6.
That MC9S08JM MCU reads out those controls and more.
Thanks for the doc.
Now let's see if there's some affordable dev board for the MC9S08JM.

[Lex Nahumury]

Lol, turns out to be an 8-bit proc.
Anyway, board. $99
DEMOJM Product Summary Page
Supports the 32-bit mcu as well.

[Max M.]

btw., Lex - just in case, what a specific purpose you need a MCU board for?
(Actually, i've misread your question about "affordable host processor board" above - reading it as "DSP board" for some reason)

Either way (if you're not limited to any specific arch. or manufacturer) - of course i'd recommend something ARM based. There're very inexpensive ARM chips/boards.
For example, last year i used LPC2148 PROTOTYPE DEVELOPMENT BOARD (it's a clone of more expensive IAR Kit) - here in Moscow i got it just for $30. So far so good - it did its task (though i can't say the USB part of this particular Phillips 2148 chip is not weird ).
Although - before going with ARM you will need to dig into compiler compatibility/availability stuff (as not every ARM chip/board is programmable with GCC and commercial ARM compilers are very expensive).

[Lex Nahumury]

Originally Posted by Max M.

btw., Lex - just in case, what a specific purpose you need a MCU board for?

Well, the Soundbite is great but does not have a host MCU.
(currently I use a laptop as host for the soundbite)
To make a complete standalone device I need a host MCU that does;
- parameter calculations (filter coeffs & stuff)
- control readout (pots, switches and dial encoders)
- MIDI I/O
etc. and it must come with C compiler.
(i'm not going to do filter coeff math in assembler lol)

Originally Posted by Max M.

Either way (if you're not limited to any specific arch. or manufacturer) - of course i'd recommend something ARM based. There're very inexpensive ARM chips/boards.
For example, last year i used LPC2148 PROTOTYPE DEVELOPMENT BOARD (it's a clone of more expensive IAR Kit) - here in Moscow i got it just for $30. So far so good - it did its task (though i can't say the USB part of this particular Phillips 2148 chip is not weird ).
Although - before going with ARM you will need to dig into compiler compatibility/availability stuff (as not every ARM chip/board is programmable with GCC and commercial ARM compilers are very expensive).

Hey Max that ARM board looks perfect at firts glance!
Is there a (free) compatible C compiler available?

[Max M.]

Is there a (free) compatible C compiler available?

As far as i can tell - yes. (search for something like "LPC2000+gcc" or so).
Unfortunately - i can't say in detail (as i used a commercial compiler).

Anyway - i mentioned this particular board just as an example (if you dislike this one for some reason). But speaking of microcontrollers (and especially of 32-bit ones) - it's no even doubt to go with ARM
(There's quite wide choice of ARM chips/boards - so i'm sure sooner or later you'll find something that fits near perfectly)

i'm not going to do filter coeff math in assembler lol)

I assume that you're ready for no floating-point in MCUs
(though actually with many compilers you'll be able to have some fp-emulation - it's still pain in the ass)

[Lex Nahumury]

Originally Posted by Max M.

But speaking of microcontrollers (and especially of 32-bit ones) - it's no even doubt to go with ARM

Now that's the kinda info I like!
No need to look further, ARM it is.
Thanks.

[Lex Nahumury]

Originally Posted by Max M.

I assume that you're ready for no floating-point in MCUs
(though actually with many compilers you'll be able to have some fp-emulation - it's still pain in the ass)

Why are those fpu emulations PITA? Incompleet, not accurate?
I mean OK they are slower since they run in software, but sin(x) is still the same sin(x) from a programmers point of view right?

[Max M.]

Welll, nothing serious - but, it's additional Flash/RAM overhead (may or may not be critical depending on their amount you have) and they're not just "slower" but "slooooow" (again may be just fine on >50MHz MCU - but still need extra care when being put into time-critical chains (turning knobs like a mad or controlling via MIDI or something might be considered as time-critical at certain point).

but sin(x) is still the same sin(x) from a programmers point of view right?

Not just "sin(x)" but "C conforming sin(x)" (e.g. supporting all those #infs, #nans etc., e.g. with extra overhead, though typically many fpe libraries allow a sort of fine-tuning of such stuff)

Well, i think you won't have any problems with that
(Finally, if at some point one finds certain fpe function hindering he's not going to be frighted by finding/writing suitable approximation (not necessary less presice) right in fixed-point domain)

[Lex Nahumury]

Originally Posted by Max M.

..it's additional Flash/RAM overhead (may or may not be critical depending on their amount you have) and they're not just "slower" but "slooooow" (again may be just fine on >50MHz MCU - but still need extra care when being put into time-critical chains (turning knobs like a mad or controlling via MIDI or something might be considered as time-critical at certain point).

Hmmm,. I see. In that case, performance and RAM usage could indeed be a real 'show stopper' here.
I must say I was a little worried about that.

Originally Posted by Max M.

(Finally, if at some point one finds certain fpe function hindering he's not going to be frighted by finding/writing suitable approximation (not necessary less presice) right in fixed-point domain)

Not afraid of doing so, but I was kinda hoping to avoid these kind of exercises.

[stylus02]

hmm.. the 56300 series can do 180 mips. this is not more than the emu10k2 isnīt it?
for external controls over serial bus or gpio a microcontroller is needed. this could be a piece of hard work for making a standalone effect-unit or an instrument. for learning purposes on "real" dsp- boards itīs quite good. if anyone plans a commercial release with this little thing it must thought about the consumers "mips- hunger".

greets stylus

[Max M.]

>it must thought about the consumers "mips- hunger".

no problem here, "mips-hunger" consumer is ready to pay thousands bucks for thousands MIPS.

>for external controls over serial bus or gpio a microcontroller is needed.

aren't most posts in the thread exactly about this?

edit:
and btw. Emu10k2's DSP is only about 50 MIPS (obviously 1024 * 48000, not counting a few additional MIPS on "automatic" circular buffer addressing (e.g. delay lines))

[stylus02]

of course you were talking about mpuīs.

and btw. Emu10k2's DSP is only about 50 MIPS (obviously 1024 * 48000, not counting a few additional MIPS on "automatic" circular buffer addressing (e.g. delay lines))

iīve found this in the fx8010 datasheet:

"By coupling a highly regular four-operand, 32-bit
integer architecture with independent delay memory
and I/O engines, FX8010 delivers 100MIPS at
50KHZ sample rate..."

fx8010= emu10k1, emu10k2 can perform the double instructions

[Max M.]

>fx8010= emu10k1

Nope, "FX8010" is a DSP architecture. The DPSs inside Emu10k1, RChip and Emu10k2 are all of "FX8010". (The Emu10k* are "Audio Controllers" and the DSP is only a part of them)

>"FX8010 delivers 100MIPS at"

He might be talking about RChip's DSP (which was 4 times more powerful than Emu10k1's one). (Or he could be just overstating a bit ).

Finally, we don't need to guess or to believe any papers. This can be simply calculated :
Emu10k2: 1024 instructions per sample * 48000 samples per second = 49152000 instructions per second
E.g. 49.152 MIPS
Emu01k1: twice lower (as it has 512 instructions per sample)

[Lex Nahumury]

Originally Posted by stylus02

hmm.. the 56300 series can do 180 mips. this is not more than the emu10k2 isnīt it?

Err, its more than 3x faster then the emu10k2!
Besides that, it's a more versatile DSP then emu10k.

Originally Posted by stylus02

for external controls over serial bus or gpio a microcontroller is needed.

Duh. Except for a few exotic and expensive DSP solutions practiclly *every* DSP chip needs a host MCU!

Originally Posted by stylus02

this could be a piece of hard work for making a standalone effect-unit or an instrument.

As opposed to what? To putting a CL card in a windoze box using a driver and sofware you don't have to write yourself?
If so then Yes, it's *obviously* much harder then that.
In any other case, No, this is considered normal.

Originally Posted by stylus02

for learning purposes on "real" dsp- boards itīs quite good.

And for anything else,....???
What a nonsense!

Originally Posted by stylus02

if anyone plans a commercial release with this little thing it
must thought about the consumers "mips- hunger"

There are tons of applications and consumers this chip can easily satisfy.
Not every application needs 1000 mips to be satisfactory.

Sorry Stylus but your arguments are pretty lame and frankly I fail to see the purpose of them.

[stylus02]

donīt panic..

well, let me explain from which point of view i regard it. digital synthesizers have grown up to voice- monsters with 80 voices in a access virus ti for instance. the clavia synths use 4-8 of the 653xx dspīs. the korg radias is based on a texas instruments [COLOR=Black] TMS320C55x with ~600 mips, i remember. all that stuff has to placed on a hard contesting market. the consumer prefers the machine with the largest power (or a dumping price)- that's a fact. of course other devices like effect- units, mixers don't need the power which modern synthesizers eat. if this is your intention yourīre right. [/COLOR][COLOR=Black]most the time i think about synthesizers when i see a dsp.. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=Black]
i really donīt want [/COLOR]diminish our work lex. this was only refer up to the (synth)market. (if a commercially release is planed.)

[Max M.]

[color=gray]Well, i have to agree with Lex. I can't find any purpose of "MIPS penisometria" too
- especially considering the thread title. [/color]

[stylus02]

Originally Posted by Max M.

[COLOR=gray]Well, i have to agree with Lex. I can't find any purpose of "MIPS penisometria" too
- especially considering the thread title. [/COLOR]

@lex

I did't know that my point of view would cause so much annoyance. perhaps my conception, regarding marketing a freescale 653xx powered device at present, was somewhat rash. it should be a small remark at the edge only. however the board is nice and i wish much fun with experimenting.

btw. for my own i prefer a sharc.

@max

i agree with you the rchip in emu's mantis system was indicated with 100 mips. and a "mips- penisometria" does exist anywhere out there.

http://freenet-homepage.de/kxdev/doc...x8010-arch.pdf

[Max M.]

[color=gray]
>and a "mips- penisometria" does exist anywhere out there.

doh! as i already mentioned above - it's not a problem at all to buy bigger peni.. erhh - sorry.. more MIPS - but so what?
[/color]

[Lex Nahumury]

Stylus, are you using babelfish translation to communicate here in english?
I hope so because you don't make much sense in the context of this thread other then
sounding snobbish and annoying.