ferongr

I've been having problems with StereoMix levels when using the ADC plugin for AC97 control. The master volume of the system influences the level of the StereoMix signal. Is this how it's supposed to happen?

Also, another question: Do Stereo Mix plugins (4x2 mixers without gain control) degrade the signal in anyway when set at full volume? Is there any alternative to them (some kind of multiple input selector)?

Picture of my DPS and plugin settings follows.

(Edit: Ofcourse I'm using the latest versions of the KxDrivers and involved plugins, ProFX are at the latest version too)

http://img152.imageshack.us/img152/4923/dspth5.png

Maddogg6

I presume the 'Volume Curve' plugin was renamed from 'master volume companion'

So, 'Master Volume' doesn't look like it is connected correctly, so, no, not in this case. You have no Audio fed to the 'master volume companions' audio input.

The 'master Volume' plugin provides a control signal to its companion plugin so that windows mixer can adjust a volume level of the audio fed to the audio input of the companion plugins audio input.

This is most useful to me so I can use my multimedia keyboard to adjust volume when not using epilog. But with master volume plugin, I have the flexibility that I can adjust any audio level I choose depending on how I connect it in the kC DSP, where epilog simply adjusts the physical outputs levels.

'degrading' is a tricky term to use, any processing of audio can be considered 'degrading' - so yes even adjusting volume in the DSP can be considered as 'degrading' because of the nature of digital audio.

ferongr

Volume Curve is a Dynamics Processor. It edits the generated volume signal to make the volume adjustment better at the first 3 steps.

The Master Volume companion is after "Volume Curve" and it's correctly connected.

The problem is unrelated to it though afaik. When recording the stereomix (without monitoring it), the volume levels of stereomix change according to the Volume of the system. I have verified it's not related to my effect chain by monitoring the levels of the ADC peak meters.

What I want to know is if the audio gets in any way changed when letting only one of the inputs go through, at 100% volume (no change to original volume).

Maddogg6

Well - renaming plugins as you did - how is anyone supposed to know these things?

Hmm I have no clue why that is happening, perhaps its a bug with Master Volume, or an anomaly / interaction from using ADC stmix setting with master volume plugin??

Instead of using STMIX in ADC, try setting that to MIC (or any other unconnected input) on the Record Source Side, and adjust the MIXER side Line In level and unmute it.

If adjusting master volume and it affecting RECORD volume - sure seems like theres some kind of connection between that, and your problem. With no master volume - does the problem still persist? - I would bet - no.
It is possible.... without knowing DANE very well I can't be certain... but.... I suspect that there are cases where inputs are lowered so when mixed will not overdrive at the output. So I think the answer is - it depends on how the mixer is programmed. But Im not an expert. Looking at the 'Stereo Mix' plugin, there appears to be no change when volume is set to 100%. The 4x2 (mixy) - is more complex and so I have no idea about what they do - but I would say, with more than 2 inputs, the likelyhood of lowering inputs increases, because overdriving the output becomes more likely when mixing more inputs. Mixing is simple arithmatic addition after all.

If it is critical - dont use any plugins you dont need - and adjust monitor volume on your amp/speakers outside the DSP - there's less chance of such degradation in analog circuits, just because of the nature of analog - versus the nature of digital.

ferongr

After some trial and error, I think I found the problem.

With an empty DSP, ADC by itself will work as intended. Loading ProFX's kXLt or the standard Epilog will introduce the problem again. epiloglt_k1 is immune to the problem as far as I has tested, but I don't see any relevant analog outputs (only SPDIF 0 to 3, Output 13-15, ASIOs and some REC inputs).

Regarding the mixer, that's what I wanted to know. I'm using the simple Stereo Mix. When Mixing two identical signals, it overdrives the output. I should had deducted it myself, but I just wanted to be sure since I can't understand DANE source at all.

Maddogg6

Well - AFAIK, that plugin is for special case models of 10K1 cards. The reason it exists exactly, I don't know.

But - many/most/all SBLives use an AC97 codec for the FRONT Analog output - and the top pins of Epilog_K1 are labled AC97.

And if you look at the kX Help file - Appendix A - IO Assignments... You will see that the REAR analog outs are driven by SPDIF 3. The AC97 bit above is shown on that page too - be sure to pay close attention to the '10K1 MNE' column and the pop up info when hovering the mouse over epilogs pins - you should be able to correlate what pins to use.

Edit: Dont forget the FRONT <> REAR switch on the kX Mixer Master page. It should still be in effect even with kXLt as well. That could add some confusion I suppose.

ferongr

kXLt still reproduces the same problem (StereoMix influenced by master volume position). The moment I connected it to the DSP, ADC StereoMix levels dropped. I am starting to think that this is a problem deep in the kX driver itself. (BTW, Soundcard is an SB0229).

In the end, If no sollution is found (StereoMix output is important for me) I may ditch changing my Master volume from the driver and create a physical linked volume control (obviously, I am crossing the signal in the DSP and send it to an external amplifier and a subwoofer)

Edit: Slightly offtopic. I still don't understand why there is a mixer and router in kX's design (the mixer obviously involved in the driver's internal workings somehow). It would be far more sensible for the whole driver to be just a DSP, every functionality being implemented by plugins,)

Maddogg6

Again, try instead of Stereo Mix in the drop down of ADC RECORD side - set that to something not connected - Then, on the MIX side of ADC - adjust *all* the levels/mutes to what you need. See what that does.
Well it sorta is. The kX Router dictates what comes out of what FXBus lines, and only affects software generated audio like Wave 0/1, 2/3, 4/5, 6/7 - DirectSound 3D, Ac3 Decoding, kX Synths, ASIO Playback.
They are audio sources, sorta like Prolog supplying the DSP the physical inputs, but its everything that is *not* a physical input. I dont see how it could be eliminated, unless you are no longer able to change kX Router - and are stuck with what ever the Devs choose. Naa - I like choices - the kX Router isnt that complicated really.

Normally the confusion comes from how the kX Mixer integrates particular Plugins - as some sliders disappear when removing some plugins from kX DSP.

Maddogg6

Additionally - try to use the Prolog plugin instead of ADC and see what happens?
Yes you can intermix using Prolog with kXlt and SRC with FXBus. I can at least anyway.

Also - are you absolutely certain, that the record levels are affected, and not that you are just hearing the monitoring changing. ?? It seems quite strange to me, I dont recall ever someone reporting this problem before.

ferongr

That works normally. It looks like a bug with ADC then. I'll add another Stereo-Mixer in the chain and mix FX BUS 0/1 to the inputs.
Yeah, I verified it with the help of the Audacity peak meter.
Maybe the Router could be reworked to use the same "Virtual Wiring" interface like the DSP... That would make it a lot more cleaner and easier to use... But anyway, I'm not using the router at all.

Thanks for your help Maddog, and for bearing with my noobness

Maddogg6

Oh - there is one more possibility....

Technically - the most correct way to create a DSP is to put them in numerical order (the number in the '[ ]' on each plugin) in which the audio flows. So ADC being a lower # than the kXLT.
Adding all the plugins in order of audio flow. #1 > #2 > #3

*Normally* it doesn't make much difference how the plugins are ordered - but evidently there are some cases it can matter, maybe this is one of them cases. ?? Worth trying.

Also - you should make note that - using the Master Volume - will translate Windows Mixer Master Volume - and apply it to the Master Volume companion plugin. Thats kinda the point of that plugin - right? - so, maybe it is confusing for this matter, if a windows application is automatically adjusting windows master volume - which is in turn changing master volume companions levels as well... ?? Just making sure... as it is an odd problem.

Russ - the developer of the Master Volume plugin will probably chime in with some additional insight on this.

Maddogg6

Possibly its by design. If you think about it - why have a record side and a mix side in ADC - there is just 1 output - right?
But why volume levels change is beyond me. Maybe from how the levels are set in your ADC - record side set to +22.5db, but mix side is 0db ..?? I'll have to do some testing to get a better understanding how ADC works in 10K1, I mostly use my A2 -10K2 and its a bit different - having the UDA implemented.

ferongr

Just tried it, no change.
There is no application in my system that changes the Master Volume slider in Windows Mixer Some media players (like Winamp with the Wave out plugin) change the Wave slider that corresponds to the Wave slider in KxMixer when Prolog is used, but I'm using Foobar with Kernel streaming output. And the Wave slider is not working anyway.

Russ

StereoMix on some card models includes DAC output (usually analog front), and as such, Master Volume can affect the signal level. If you truly need StereoMix and have such a card (it sounds like you do), I would suggest not connecting anything to the analog front pins of epilog/kxlt (when using StereoMix or MonoMix).

ferongr

Newsflash: I just got hold of an SB Live 5.1 SB0102 (as opposed to the SB0220 i used before) and the problem seems largely non-existant on it.

Offtopic: Despite the PCB looking almost identical (some Philips chips are re-arranged), I noticed increased dynamic range on this card and better stereo separation. Also, it seems SB0220 has a strange phase-shift on one of it's outputs. With the SB0102, the Subwoofer connected on the front jack cooperates (if I can use this expression) alot better with my main speakers on the rear jack.