Understanding kX

thomasabarnes · Jun 10, 2005, 05:48 PM

I have come a long way in my understanding of kX. I was rereading some of the older threads I made posts in. It saddens me that I was so without an understanding of kX, ASIO, the kX Wave devices, and the DSP objects (and other DSP plug ins). Through all my efforts to understand, LeMury has always been here to help me. Thanks, LeMury, so much for the help!

I've learned so much about kX because of him. Also, I have learned due to help from other forum members and the increase of kX related articles. Now, the default kX DSP setup doesnt look intimidating at all! And now, I can do just about anything I want in the DSP applet.

Yet, there are 2 objects in the default kX DSP setup I have yet to fully understand. Those are the Xrouting object and the Surrounder+.

So can someone give an explanation of the ins/outs to these objects?

For example, what are the FX ins and s, e, w, n, ne, outs on the Xrouting object, and what are the corresponding ins on the Surrounder+?

And if I wanted to have 5.1 surround sound with a DSP in which I use all ProFX plugins, what would I have to do, add non ProFx plugins or what? It's just that I want to understand more, so I can have less reasons to work outside the kX DSP for anything. There was a thread started a while ago where an appeal was made for kX users to write articles for the different DSP plugins (http://driverheaven.net/showthread.php?t=65850), but not much progress was made in that respect, thus far. In the kX Help, there is little written about the Xrouting plugin, and I didnt see anything about Surrounder+.

Thanks for any help.

Russ · Jun 10, 2005, 06:51 PM

For xrouting, start by examining the tweak window, and then examine the microcode. The microcode is fairly basic and should be fairly easy to understand as it only uses the ACC3 (used here to add inputs) and macs instruction (used here to apply recording levels from the sliders, and FX amounts). It basically just mixes all the FxBus inputs together to form the stereo mix left and right ouputs, mixes all the recording inputs to form the RecL and RecR outputs, applies the FX amounts to all of the inputs, and sets the various recording levels based on the sliders from the recording page of kxmixer.

thomasabarnes · Jun 10, 2005, 07:11 PM

thanks for the reply, but I dont know how to read microcode, and your post doesnt tell me what are the FX ins and s, e, w, n, ne, outs on the Xrouting object, and what are the corresponding ins on the Surrounder+.

But thanks for the reply.

Russ · Jun 10, 2005, 07:20 PM

No problem I was going to explain a bit more in another post, but I was not sure how much you allready understand. Do you understand FxBus, and how it works with the kxrouter, and how the wave buses map to the channels (front, rear, etc)?
s, e, w, etc, are just directional indicators (i.e. south, east, west, etc), used to represent 8 point surround sound. i.e. ne = front right, se = rear right, west = side left, east = side right, etc.

thomasabarnes · Jun 10, 2005, 08:01 PM

ah, that's much better man, thanks! I understand that with the default kX router setup

ASIO playback signals correspond to the same FXBuses, (FXbus 0/1=ASIO 0/1, FXBUS 2/3=ASIO 2/3 etc.), that F/X bus 0/1 also has Wave 0/1 which carries WMP/MP3 playback, that FXBus 2/3 also has MIDI playback signal, and that what FX bus carries what signal can be changed by using the kX Router to assign a different signal than the default, though I never used kX router to change assignments.

So what I'm trying to understand is how to add a 5.1 surround setup to a DSP setup I have using MX6 and all ProFX plug ins. I'd like to understand the concept rather than just use the default DSP to have the 5.1 surround capability. So I'm trying to understand if Xrouter has to be used or can I use surrounder+ and other DSP plugins to achieve this 5.1 surround setup.

Edit:

I also know that FxBus 0/1 carries Wave 0/1, FXBus 4/5 carries Wave 4/5 and FXBus 6/7 carries Wave 6/7 using the default kX router assignments.

Russ · Jun 10, 2005, 08:02 PM

All inputs are basically just what is connected to them, so some of the inputs are best explained by how they are connected by default.
The FX inputs are effects inputs. FX1 appears to allow for multichannel effects, and FX2 for 2 channel effects (2 stereo channels, i.e. Front and Rear). The names of the FX inputs are directly related to what inputs the FX amount gets added to (and the names appear to use a combination of left, right, surround, and directional indicators, I am not sure why a consistant naming convention is not used).

More to come... (trying to think of the best why to explain).

Russ · Jun 10, 2005, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thomasabarnes

So what I'm trying to understand is how to add a 5.1 surround setup to a DSP setup I have using MX6 and all ProFX plug ins. I'd like to understand the concept rather than just use the default DSP to have the 5.1 surround capability. So I'm trying to understand if Xrouter has to be used or can I use surrounder+ and other DSP plugins to achieve this 5.1 surround setup.

Sorry for the delay, my internet connection croaked, and I had to retype this (stupid cable company always giving me problems).
Ok, you would get the best results using xrouting and Surrounder+ (for general all purpose usage), because they are specifically designed for that purpose, and thus have additional features such as the crossover for the LFE channel seperation, and delays to help center to sound image, etc, but they are not absolutley necessery. Again, xrouting mostly just mixes the signals together, and applies the effects that are connected to it. Most of the surround stuff passes straight through it with only the effects applied, which you can do with any mixer (just note how they are connected to FXBus by default to see how they translate to the directional locations). Surrounder is a bit more complicated to explain as it allows you to choose so many different setups (and again the additional delay and crossover stuff). Surround On, would basically pass the signal straight through (only adding the delay stuff, etc), so the outputs would be the same as the inputs. Surround copy mode, as the name implies, just copies the front channels to the rear, etc. Surrounder basically justs connects (routes) it's inputs to it's outputs based on what options you choose in it's tweak window. The names of the presets (and the options) pretty much indicate what it is doing. It is hard to explain what it does in every case. You could pretty much recreate any setup using other plugins, but most likely it would only represent one of Surrounder's modes. I am not sure if I am explaining this well enough. Let me know what additional info you need, so I can concentrate on specific areas. Anyone else, that has additional info to add, or thinks they can do a better job explaining, feel free to jump in.

Russ · Jun 10, 2005, 08:53 PM

BTW: The Surrounder Explained thread in the 3-D Audio forum, has great information in it, including what most of the controls in Surrounder actually do, and a map of how the inputs connect to the outputs under various configurations. Take a look at it, if you have not allready done so.

thomasabarnes · Jun 10, 2005, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

BTW: The Surrounder Explained thread in the 3-D Audio forum, has great information in it, including what most of the controls in Surrounder actually do, and a map of how the inputs connect to the outputs under various configurations. Take a look at it, if you have not allready done so.

Yes, I've seen this thread. However, I'm trying to understand what signals I have to connect to the Surrounder ( or not use it at all), in order to get a true 5.1 surround setup, that's why I'm trying to focus on understanding the inputs and outputs on Xrouter and Surrounder+. I've seen in a thread under this one (http://www.hardwareheaven.com/effects-dsp/76077-really-simple-profx-front-rear-cant-get-rear.html) some DSP setup connecting Wave 0/1 to some mixer and then to Surrounder and then to kXlt (http://www.radiocolonel.it/kx/dsp.png).

Will that simple setup render true 5.1 surround sound if a 5.1 surround sound file was played by a player such as WMP 10? There's also the matter (as you mentioned) of having Bass Redirection in a 5.1 DSP setup, so I'll have to decide to have this abilty or not, in a setup I build.

Also, I'm reading about kX Router in the Help file and more things are making sense to me now. Thanks for your help. I'll be reading and thinking these things through.

Russ · Jun 10, 2005, 09:36 PM

Do not forget that FXBuses 4/5, 6/7, and 8/9 are used for surround as well. Again, look at how they are connected to xrouting by default, understanding that they basically just pass through it (as far as how they relate to xrouting's outputs). Try connecting different peak meters to all the FxBuses used for wave output, and try the speaker test, and play something with surround content etc, and look at peak meters to see where the sound enters the DSP, and that should help you to see how you would need to connect them.

Lex Nahumury · Jun 10, 2005, 09:38 PM

@thomas,

Xrouter (it's name says it all) is just a mixer/signal router much the same as mx6
or any other DSP-mixer. However, it is entirely dedicated to the default DSP setup
to provide the most common generic soundcard functionality to the user without
having to go into the DSP-window.
The idea is that the avarage user operates kX solely through kX Mixer applet and *not* through the DSP-window.
Notice that Xrouter has it's mixer sliders on kX Mixer Pages and does not have it's own DSP Tweak dialog!
One could say that Xrouter provides a way for kX Mixer's sliders to control some mixing levels in the DSP.

So Xrouter is a DSP-mixer with it's sliders elsewhere.

Xrouter + Default_DSP + kX Mixer is 'One Thing';
Xrouter ties (mixes) the Default DSP setup together and is controled by kX Mixer.

It should be clear that Xrouter is only usefull in/with the default DSP setup.

Basicly the Surrounder is used to 'fit' the playback audio content to your connected speaker(s) type.
Suppose you playback 5.1 audio content, but you have only one stereo pair speakers,
then all 6 audio channels are kinda mixed together to 'fit' your 'plain stereo' speakers.
Vica versa; you playback plain stereo audio content on a surround speaker set,
then the surrounder makes pseudo surround sound to 'fit' the surround speakers.
If you playback surround audio on surround speakers you can tweak delays and subwoofer crossover,
or go straight (unaltered) through the surrounder.
See the link Russ gave you for more details.

Yes, you can use ProFx plugins in a surround setup.
Epilog can be replaced by kxlt and Prolog by SRC/ADC.
Replacing FXbus with SRCs is also possible but there might be not much benefit
since you'll probably use almost all fxbus numbers anyway.

There are users who connect the corresponding surround signals (found on fxbus)
directly to rear, front, sub etc, on kxlt/epilog bypassing everything.
Others do the same but use seperate delay lines and crossovers instead of surrounder.

So does one always need xrouter+surrounder+defaultDSP for surround playback?
No, not perse.

Hope this helps.

/LeMury

JohnMcClane · Jun 10, 2005, 09:55 PM

Just to show you how a simple working surround setup could look like:

http://members.inode.at/m.lodin/kx.jpg

This setup has a problem if you need bass-redirection from 5.1 content (e.g. games, ac3 movies,...). The surrounder does NOT redirect bass from multi channel sources, so you will not have any LFE ouput in some games. Also 5.1 movies have a lot of low frequency sounds in front speakers audio line that the average home cinema speakers can't play - so you might have to add a crossover yourself.

thomasabarnes · Jun 10, 2005, 09:55 PM

Thanks Gents.

These posts are a great help.

Russ · Jun 10, 2005, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnMcClane

Just to show you how a simple working surround setup could look like:

http://members.inode.at/m.lodin/kx.jpg

They say a picture is worth 1000 words, and in this case I would have to agree. That should help to clear some things up, as xrouting can make things confusing if you do not realize that most of the surround stuff routes straight through it. I think that pic, along with Lemury's explanation will help a lot of people. This subject was one of the biggest stumbling blocks for me as well, and understanding it, along with the FxBus/kX Router stuff goes a long way toward gaining a good understanding of kX's capabillities, and the DSP, etc.

thomasabarnes · Jun 10, 2005, 11:34 PM

Great help you all! I just about understand everything. Russ your posts in this thread were really helpful, too!

Just one more thing.

What exactly are the bottom 4 inputs on the Surrounder (I know from a prevous post of yours, they deal with 6.1 or 7.1 speaker stuff) "in w" (is that the signal of the speaker placed to the left and in between the front left and Rear left of a listener?), "in e" ( "in w's" match, to the right of listener?), but what is "in s" and "in top?"

I havent read up on multiple surround speaker systems since 6.1 was 1st introduced (that added a center speaker to the rear of the listener, if I recall right).

There's not a speaker above and under alistener now, is it?

Thanks again all for the great posts. LeMury, I'm glad to know you!

Russ · Jun 11, 2005, 12:13 AM

Again the inputs are based on 8 point surround (except the top 2 which are stereo mix). As for in_top, that is the one I am unsure about (I think it is for 3D Top whatever that is), and I do not think it is currently used (it is routed from FXbus 15 by default but I do not see it used in the Surrounder microcode). As for what they all mean as outputs, that depends on how Surrounder is configured and your actual speakers. i.e. in_w could be for a side left speaker in a 7.1 setup or for 5.1 setup it could be sent to both the front left and rear left which would simulate a left side channel (The side channels and rear center channel are not normally used with 5.1 as you know).

Jun 10, 2005, 05:48 PM	#1
thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: USA Posts: 1,373 Rep Power: 58 System Specs	Understanding kX I have come a long way in my understanding of kX. I was rereading some of the older threads I made posts in. It saddens me that I was so without an understanding of kX, ASIO, the kX Wave devices, and the DSP objects (and other DSP plug ins). Through all my efforts to understand, LeMury has always been here to help me. Thanks, LeMury, so much for the help! I've learned so much about kX because of him. Also, I have learned due to help from other forum members and the increase of kX related articles. Now, the default kX DSP setup doesnt look intimidating at all! And now, I can do just about anything I want in the DSP applet. Yet, there are 2 objects in the default kX DSP setup I have yet to fully understand. Those are the Xrouting object and the Surrounder+. So can someone give an explanation of the ins/outs to these objects? For example, what are the FX ins and s, e, w, n, ne, outs on the Xrouting object, and what are the corresponding ins on the Surrounder+? And if I wanted to have 5.1 surround sound with a DSP in which I use all ProFX plugins, what would I have to do, add non ProFx plugins or what? It's just that I want to understand more, so I can have less reasons to work outside the kX DSP for anything. There was a thread started a while ago where an appeal was made for kX users to write articles for the different DSP plugins (http://driverheaven.net/showthread.php?t=65850), but not much progress was made in that respect, thus far. In the kX Help, there is little written about the Xrouting plugin, and I didnt see anything about Surrounder+. Thanks for any help. __________________ May a song always touch you in a positive way. Sonar 8.5.3 PE, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB HDD 7200 rpm, My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs Last edited by thomasabarnes; Jun 10, 2005 at 05:54 PM.

Jun 10, 2005, 07:11 PM	Thread Starter #3
thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: USA Posts: 1,373 Rep Power: 58 System Specs	thanks for the reply, but I dont know how to read microcode, and your post doesnt tell me what are the FX ins and s, e, w, n, ne, outs on the Xrouting object, and what are the corresponding ins on the Surrounder+. But thanks for the reply. __________________ May a song always touch you in a positive way. Sonar 8.5.3 PE, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB HDD 7200 rpm, My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs

Jun 10, 2005, 07:20 PM	#4
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,507 Rep Power: 61	No problem I was going to explain a bit more in another post, but I was not sure how much you allready understand. Do you understand FxBus, and how it works with the kxrouter, and how the wave buses map to the channels (front, rear, etc)? s, e, w, etc, are just directional indicators (i.e. south, east, west, etc), used to represent 8 point surround sound. i.e. ne = front right, se = rear right, west = side left, east = side right, etc. Last edited by Russ; Jun 10, 2005 at 08:59 PM. Reason: typo

Jun 10, 2005, 08:01 PM	Thread Starter #5
thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: USA Posts: 1,373 Rep Power: 58 System Specs	ah, that's much better man, thanks! I understand that with the default kX router setup ASIO playback signals correspond to the same FXBuses, (FXbus 0/1=ASIO 0/1, FXBUS 2/3=ASIO 2/3 etc.), that F/X bus 0/1 also has Wave 0/1 which carries WMP/MP3 playback, that FXBus 2/3 also has MIDI playback signal, and that what FX bus carries what signal can be changed by using the kX Router to assign a different signal than the default, though I never used kX router to change assignments. So what I'm trying to understand is how to add a 5.1 surround setup to a DSP setup I have using MX6 and all ProFX plug ins. I'd like to understand the concept rather than just use the default DSP to have the 5.1 surround capability. So I'm trying to understand if Xrouter has to be used or can I use surrounder+ and other DSP plugins to achieve this 5.1 surround setup. Edit: I also know that FxBus 0/1 carries Wave 0/1, FXBus 4/5 carries Wave 4/5 and FXBus 6/7 carries Wave 6/7 using the default kX router assignments. __________________ May a song always touch you in a positive way. Sonar 8.5.3 PE, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB HDD 7200 rpm, My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs Last edited by thomasabarnes; Jun 10, 2005 at 08:51 PM.

Jun 10, 2005, 08:02 PM	#6
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,507 Rep Power: 61	All inputs are basically just what is connected to them, so some of the inputs are best explained by how they are connected by default. The FX inputs are effects inputs. FX1 appears to allow for multichannel effects, and FX2 for 2 channel effects (2 stereo channels, i.e. Front and Rear). The names of the FX inputs are directly related to what inputs the FX amount gets added to (and the names appear to use a combination of left, right, surround, and directional indicators, I am not sure why a consistant naming convention is not used). More to come... (trying to think of the best why to explain). Last edited by Russ; Jun 10, 2005 at 08:40 PM. Reason: spelling

Jun 10, 2005, 06:51 PM	#2
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,507 Rep Power: 61	For xrouting, start by examining the tweak window, and then examine the microcode. The microcode is fairly basic and should be fairly easy to understand as it only uses the ACC3 (used here to add inputs) and macs instruction (used here to apply recording levels from the sliders, and FX amounts). It basically just mixes all the FxBus inputs together to form the stereo mix left and right ouputs, mixes all the recording inputs to form the RecL and RecR outputs, applies the FX amounts to all of the inputs, and sets the various recording levels based on the sliders from the recording page of kxmixer.

Jun 10, 2005, 08:53 PM	#8
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,507 Rep Power: 61	BTW: The Surrounder Explained thread in the 3-D Audio forum, has great information in it, including what most of the controls in Surrounder actually do, and a map of how the inputs connect to the outputs under various configurations. Take a look at it, if you have not allready done so.

Jun 10, 2005, 09:36 PM	#10
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,507 Rep Power: 61	Do not forget that FXBuses 4/5, 6/7, and 8/9 are used for surround as well. Again, look at how they are connected to xrouting by default, understanding that they basically just pass through it (as far as how they relate to xrouting's outputs). Try connecting different peak meters to all the FxBuses used for wave output, and try the speaker test, and play something with surround content etc, and look at peak meters to see where the sound enters the DSP, and that should help you to see how you would need to connect them.

Jun 10, 2005, 09:38 PM	#11
Lex Nahumury DH Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 1,930 Rep Power: 62	@thomas, Xrouter (it's name says it all) is just a mixer/signal router much the same as mx6 or any other DSP-mixer. However, it is entirely dedicated to the default DSP setup to provide the most common generic soundcard functionality to the user without having to go into the DSP-window. The idea is that the avarage user operates kX solely through kX Mixer applet and not through the DSP-window. Notice that Xrouter has it's mixer sliders on kX Mixer Pages and does not have it's own DSP Tweak dialog! One could say that Xrouter provides a way for kX Mixer's sliders to control some mixing levels in the DSP. So Xrouter is a DSP-mixer with it's sliders elsewhere. Xrouter + Default_DSP + kX Mixer is 'One Thing'; Xrouter ties (mixes) the Default DSP setup together and is controled by kX Mixer. It should be clear that Xrouter is only usefull in/with the default DSP setup. Basicly the Surrounder is used to 'fit' the playback audio content to your connected speaker(s) type. Suppose you playback 5.1 audio content, but you have only one stereo pair speakers, then all 6 audio channels are kinda mixed together to 'fit' your 'plain stereo' speakers. Vica versa; you playback plain stereo audio content on a surround speaker set, then the surrounder makes pseudo surround sound to 'fit' the surround speakers. If you playback surround audio on surround speakers you can tweak delays and subwoofer crossover, or go straight (unaltered) through the surrounder. See the link Russ gave you for more details. Yes, you can use ProFx plugins in a surround setup. Epilog can be replaced by kxlt and Prolog by SRC/ADC. Replacing FXbus with SRCs is also possible but there might be not much benefit since you'll probably use almost all fxbus numbers anyway. There are users who connect the corresponding surround signals (found on fxbus) directly to rear, front, sub etc, on kxlt/epilog bypassing everything. Others do the same but use seperate delay lines and crossovers instead of surrounder. So does one always need xrouter+surrounder+defaultDSP for surround playback? No, not perse. Hope this helps. /LeMury

Jun 10, 2005, 09:55 PM	#12
JohnMcClane DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: May 2003 Location: Vienna, Austria Posts: 146 Rep Power: 0	Just to show you how a simple working surround setup could look like: http://members.inode.at/m.lodin/kx.jpg This setup has a problem if you need bass-redirection from 5.1 content (e.g. games, ac3 movies,...). The surrounder does NOT redirect bass from multi channel sources, so you will not have any LFE ouput in some games. Also 5.1 movies have a lot of low frequency sounds in front speakers audio line that the average home cinema speakers can't play - so you might have to add a crossover yourself.

Jun 10, 2005, 09:55 PM	Thread Starter #13
thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: USA Posts: 1,373 Rep Power: 58 System Specs	Thanks Gents. These posts are a great help. __________________ May a song always touch you in a positive way. Sonar 8.5.3 PE, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB HDD 7200 rpm, My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs

Jun 10, 2005, 11:34 PM	Thread Starter #15
thomasabarnes Long Time ***** Friend Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: USA Posts: 1,373 Rep Power: 58 System Specs	Great help you all! I just about understand everything. Russ your posts in this thread were really helpful, too! Just one more thing. What exactly are the bottom 4 inputs on the Surrounder (I know from a prevous post of yours, they deal with 6.1 or 7.1 speaker stuff) "in w" (is that the signal of the speaker placed to the left and in between the front left and Rear left of a listener?), "in e" ( "in w's" match, to the right of listener?), but what is "in s" and "in top?" I havent read up on multiple surround speaker systems since 6.1 was 1st introduced (that added a center speaker to the rear of the listener, if I recall right). There's not a speaker above and under alistener now, is it? Thanks again all for the great posts. LeMury, I'm glad to know you! __________________ May a song always touch you in a positive way. Sonar 8.5.3 PE, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB HDD 7200 rpm, My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs

Jun 11, 2005, 12:13 AM	#16
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,507 Rep Power: 61	Again the inputs are based on 8 point surround (except the top 2 which are stereo mix). As for in_top, that is the one I am unsure about (I think it is for 3D Top whatever that is), and I do not think it is currently used (it is routed from FXbus 15 by default but I do not see it used in the Surrounder microcode). As for what they all mean as outputs, that depends on how Surrounder is configured and your actual speakers. i.e. in_w could be for a side left speaker in a 7.1 setup or for 5.1 setup it could be sent to both the front left and rear left which would simulate a left side channel (The side channels and rear center channel are not normally used with 5.1 as you know). Last edited by Russ; Jun 11, 2005 at 12:33 AM.