Controlling Reverb&Chorus via Midi messages 91&93. How?

Aldur12 · Dec 5, 2005, 08:51 PM

How can I control the amount of Reverb and Chorus added to some Midi channel (SF2 Synth) here? I see clearly that my controllers 91 & 93 which works perfectly with the original drivers doesn't work here. I see no any settings as they exist in the original drivers. Should I change the routing in the DSP to get it work the proper way? Or add some module?

Maddogg6 · Dec 6, 2005, 01:19 AM

Well - the DO work - you prolly just cant hear how little of reverb it is sending. It leads back to how SF21 spec is - versus what CL /EMU followed as 'spec' -

Its not a simple subject with a simple answer - and depends on how you want to implement. The default DSP implementation is 'sub par' IMO - and reccommend the use of a custom DSP/KX router settings for MUCH more control and flexibility (like 4 more sends - CC16-19 / midi channel)

But for default DSP...

Adjust effects levels in KX mixer & adjust SENDS C &D in KX Router for 'KX Synth'.

Maddogg6 · Dec 6, 2005, 01:19 AM

Oh... be warned - its not very 'intuitive' and takes some time to get used to, but is very flexible.

PITmaster · Dec 6, 2005, 09:10 AM

...and decrease midi volume to 50%. CL drivers works around this level as a high level.

Maddogg6, do you have attenuation option checked in synth compatibility window?
I noticed when unchecked it plays more gentle but some presets are too quiet, specialy basses.

PITmaster

Aldur12 · Dec 6, 2005, 11:44 AM

Well, what I did was to increase the second slider from 10% to 100%. Then the FX1 & FX2 sliders to 100%. This way I can really hear the presence of the effects. But when I go to the Automation window and there set 91 & 93 to control the Level of the effects. Just nothing happens when I set these controllers in my Midi files. Absolutely nothing. 0 or 127 they are always present. Only FX1 and FX2 in the Mix2 control the amount, but they do it for all Midi channels. I really don't understand this is very important for musician to be able to control the amount of Reverb & Chorus for every channel. The original drivers do it with zero problems (bwt back to them again). I have a wish to use kxproject drivers because of the precious GSIF support, but I have tons of work that I want to hear the way it is made - with Reverb & Chorus levels separately for every channel. Please make better explanation if this can be done and how exactly.
Is it possible somebody with really more knowledge to make the DSP routing and save it as file and publish it which I can import?

Maddogg6 · Dec 6, 2005, 08:39 PM

PIT: Yes it is checked - btw - is there any text explaining all those options?
I have my Synth vol at ~66% - so yes -its too loud at 100.

Aldur12: KX automation is NOT related to the CC91 / 93 in midi - notice ALL the KX Automation params have a CHANNEL assignement.

I completely changed the KX router - so a DSP from me will be of little use..
Keep playing with it and search these forums:

http://www.hardwareheaven.com/bug-reports/91901-audigys-additional-sends-controlling.html

ALSO how a soundfont is set WILL affect this also.

- Granted - its not as simple as CL driver - BUT - I can control 6 effect sends / midi channel now in KX..

Aldur12 · Dec 7, 2005, 01:19 AM

Well, i'm trying these kxproject drivers since years (not a joke) and always I have to just remove them and back to the original drivers. If the original drivers are capable to do something there is no reason these drivers to not be able. In fact everything is perfect with the original drivers except one thing - the lack of GSIF and they did it with a purpose - to safe their SF2 format or else nobody will use it. It is a real shame for Creative but the only thing that can be done is just to never buy their products.

radiocolonel.it · Dec 7, 2005, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldur12

Well, i'm trying these kxproject drivers since years (not a joke) and always I have to just remove them and back to the original drivers.

.... may be the problem consists in a lack of competences by u, not a driver fault...

Aldur12 · Dec 7, 2005, 03:24 PM

If you show me how can I do the thing I want, I would agree with you.
You haven't read the middle line - which means that I have always tried them and they always missed the features I want and I need for my work as musician and composer. Well written drivers shouldn't turn the user in programmer. I have Yamaha DB-50XG and I programmed a lot of sysex messages, but this is something that is very well documented and easy to understand and do.
So actually here goes speach about a lack of feature or even a bug in these kxproject drivers and Maddogg6 confirmed is as long as I uinderstand. He has some partial solution of the problem which is not what the user could accept. So please don't spam and post useless messages.

Lex Nahumury · Dec 7, 2005, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldur12

How can I control the amount of Reverb and Chorus added to some Midi channel (SF2 Synth) here? I see clearly that my controllers 91 & 93 which works perfectly with the original drivers doesn't work here. I see no any settings as they exist in the original drivers. Should I change the routing in the DSP to get it work the proper way? Or add some module?

This 'issue' has little or nothing to do with DSP setup.
The default DSP setup should be ok.

However;
The real problem is that kX's Reverb CC91/Chorus CC93 implementation is different from CL.
(actualy, the entire sf implementation is different)
You would have to edit your soundfonts 'Reverb/chorus parameter' (probably set them all to 0)
to get full range (0...127) midi CC fx control ala CL.
This works fine, but is a lot of work of course.

Anyhow;
Unfortunatly I have to admit that I agree with Aldur;
SoundFont support/implementation is (always has been) kX's weakest point in almost any respect.

kX's ASIO performance and DSP-features are great,
but if one needs proper SF support I advice to stick with CL drivers or use two cards;
One with kX the other with CL.

/LeMury

Aldur12 · Dec 7, 2005, 10:00 PM

Thank you LeMury! You did very good work here. I always respected what you did and do! And I mean all of you!

So in fact I better stay with the original drivers. I just always wanted to have GSIF support and be able to move my work to Gigastudio as well. I may follow your advice and just put another Live 5.1 card in my pc. Thank you!
I would like to ask something about the new X-Fi card. The problem is that nowhere in the reviews, nor at the official site is said what amount of the memory can be used for SF2 with the new chip. I heard with 10k1 the limit is 1GB, right? Is there such limit with the new 20k chip? Anyone know? TIA!

radiocolonel.it · Dec 7, 2005, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldur12

If you show me how can I do the thing I want, I would agree with you.
You haven't read the middle line - which means that I have always tried them and they always missed the features I want and I need for my work as musician and composer. Well written drivers shouldn't turn the user in programmer. I have Yamaha DB-50XG and I programmed a lot of sysex messages, but this is something that is very well documented and easy to understand and do.
So actually here goes speach about a lack of feature or even a bug in these kxproject drivers and Maddogg6 confirmed is as long as I uinderstand. He has some partial solution of the problem which is not what the user could accept. So please don't spam and post useless messages.

... take it ez...

Lex Nahumury · Dec 8, 2005, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldur12

So in fact I better stay with the original drivers. I just always wanted to have GSIF support and be able to move my work to Gigastudio as well. I may follow your advice and just put another Live 5.1 card in my pc.

Yep, I myself use an Audigy1 with CL drivers for all the SF goodies hooked up via SPDIF to a second ADG with kX for ASIO and DSP. Kinda 'best of both worlds'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldur12

I would like to ask something about the new X-Fi card. The problem is that nowhere in the reviews, nor at the official site is said what amount of the memory can be used for SF2 with the new chip. I heard with 10k1 the limit is 1GB, right? Is there such limit with the new 20k chip? Anyone know? TIA!

Well, afaik 10k1 can 'only' address 32Mb MIDI Space.
As for X-fi, your guess is as good as mine since there is hardly any official
documentation/specs regarding (hardware??) SF support on that new platform.
Personaly I'm interested if there will be an updated SFMAN SDK.
If so, I'll buy an X-fi tommorow.

/LeMury

radiocolonel.it · Dec 8, 2005, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aldur12

If you show me how can I do the thing I want, I would agree with you.
You haven't read the middle line - which means that I have always tried them and they always missed the features I want and I need for my work as musician and composer. Well written drivers shouldn't turn the user in programmer. I have Yamaha DB-50XG and I programmed a lot of sysex messages, but this is something that is very well documented and easy to understand and do.
So actually here goes speach about a lack of feature or even a bug in these kxproject drivers and Maddogg6 confirmed is as long as I uinderstand. He has some partial solution of the problem which is not what the user could accept. So please don't spam and post useless messages.

Buy professional harware...
U wanna get serious? get serious hardware! Dont make chicken laughs...

e mettiti le palle in fronte pirla!

Dec 5, 2005, 08:51 PM	#1
Aldur12 DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 5 Rep Power: 0	Controlling Reverb&Chorus via Midi messages 91&93. How? How can I control the amount of Reverb and Chorus added to some Midi channel (SF2 Synth) here? I see clearly that my controllers 91 & 93 which works perfectly with the original drivers doesn't work here. I see no any settings as they exist in the original drivers. Should I change the routing in the DSP to get it work the proper way? Or add some module?

Dec 7, 2005, 03:24 PM	Thread Starter #9
Aldur12 DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 5 Rep Power: 0	If you show me how can I do the thing I want, I would agree with you. You haven't read the middle line - which means that I have always tried them and they always missed the features I want and I need for my work as musician and composer. Well written drivers shouldn't turn the user in programmer. I have Yamaha DB-50XG and I programmed a lot of sysex messages, but this is something that is very well documented and easy to understand and do. So actually here goes speach about a lack of feature or even a bug in these kxproject drivers and Maddogg6 confirmed is as long as I uinderstand. He has some partial solution of the problem which is not what the user could accept. So please don't spam and post useless messages. Last edited by Aldur12; Dec 7, 2005 at 03:29 PM.

Dec 6, 2005, 01:19 AM	#2
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 0	Well - the DO work - you prolly just cant hear how little of reverb it is sending. It leads back to how SF21 spec is - versus what CL /EMU followed as 'spec' - Its not a simple subject with a simple answer - and depends on how you want to implement. The default DSP implementation is 'sub par' IMO - and reccommend the use of a custom DSP/KX router settings for MUCH more control and flexibility (like 4 more sends - CC16-19 / midi channel) But for default DSP... Adjust effects levels in KX mixer & adjust SENDS C &D in KX Router for 'KX Synth'.

Dec 6, 2005, 09:10 AM	#4
PITmaster DriverHeaven Addict Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 266 Rep Power: 0	...and decrease midi volume to 50%. CL drivers works around this level as a high level. Maddogg6, do you have attenuation option checked in synth compatibility window? I noticed when unchecked it plays more gentle but some presets are too quiet, specialy basses. PITmaster

Dec 6, 2005, 11:44 AM	Thread Starter #5
Aldur12 DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 5 Rep Power: 0	Well, what I did was to increase the second slider from 10% to 100%. Then the FX1 & FX2 sliders to 100%. This way I can really hear the presence of the effects. But when I go to the Automation window and there set 91 & 93 to control the Level of the effects. Just nothing happens when I set these controllers in my Midi files. Absolutely nothing. 0 or 127 they are always present. Only FX1 and FX2 in the Mix2 control the amount, but they do it for all Midi channels. I really don't understand this is very important for musician to be able to control the amount of Reverb & Chorus for every channel. The original drivers do it with zero problems (bwt back to them again). I have a wish to use kxproject drivers because of the precious GSIF support, but I have tons of work that I want to hear the way it is made - with Reverb & Chorus levels separately for every channel. Please make better explanation if this can be done and how exactly. Is it possible somebody with really more knowledge to make the DSP routing and save it as file and publish it which I can import?

Dec 6, 2005, 08:39 PM	#6
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 0	PIT: Yes it is checked - btw - is there any text explaining all those options? I have my Synth vol at ~66% - so yes -its too loud at 100. Aldur12: KX automation is NOT related to the CC91 / 93 in midi - notice ALL the KX Automation params have a CHANNEL assignement. I completely changed the KX router - so a DSP from me will be of little use.. Keep playing with it and search these forums: http://www.hardwareheaven.com/bug-reports/91901-audigys-additional-sends-controlling.html ALSO how a soundfont is set WILL affect this also. - Granted - its not as simple as CL driver - BUT - I can control 6 effect sends / midi channel now in KX..

Dec 7, 2005, 01:19 AM	Thread Starter #7
Aldur12 DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 5 Rep Power: 0	Well, i'm trying these kxproject drivers since years (not a joke) and always I have to just remove them and back to the original drivers. If the original drivers are capable to do something there is no reason these drivers to not be able. In fact everything is perfect with the original drivers except one thing - the lack of GSIF and they did it with a purpose - to safe their SF2 format or else nobody will use it. It is a real shame for Creative but the only thing that can be done is just to never buy their products.

Dec 7, 2005, 10:00 PM	Thread Starter #11
Aldur12 DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 5 Rep Power: 0	Thank you LeMury! You did very good work here. I always respected what you did and do! And I mean all of you! So in fact I better stay with the original drivers. I just always wanted to have GSIF support and be able to move my work to Gigastudio as well. I may follow your advice and just put another Live 5.1 card in my pc. Thank you! I would like to ask something about the new X-Fi card. The problem is that nowhere in the reviews, nor at the official site is said what amount of the memory can be used for SF2 with the new chip. I heard with 10k1 the limit is 1GB, right? Is there such limit with the new 20k chip? Anyone know? TIA!