It just aint right that Bill Gates/Microsoft....

HawgsHead

holds a damn gun too our head and says"the only way youre gonna get DX10 is to buy my Vista program".Gates is not doing a thing but holding gamers for hostage!What percentage of computer users even know if there running Dx1 or Dx100?2-3% at most?Hard core users and gamers/ builders like us shouldnt have too foot the bill....I think we should give Bill and his new OS the foot....right up his ass!

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Rig specs to the left in the boxes....X-Box 360 w/Hitachi 42" HDTV....If Darwins theory of evolution is true then why are monkeys still monkeys?It takes much more faith to believe in Darwin's theory over the Genesis account of creation.

Zardon

So....... curious. Did you feel the same when you had to move from 98 to XP ?

OldBuzzard

Bill didn't 'hold a gun to your head'. You made the choice to use a PC based system, and use MS products. If you don't like them, then go get a MAC, and save your pathetic whining for someone who gives a rat's ass.

Ya know, it doesn't matter what Bill Gates/Microsoft does, someone is going to find something to bitch about.

Bill Gates could fly around throwing $100.00 bills out of an airplane, and you would complain because you had to bend over to pick them up.

Bill Gates/Microsoft 'haters' amuse me. 99+% do their pathetic whining whilst using MS products of one sort or another.

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When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

LeanWolf

DX10, the games and hardware will all take some time, by the time it's a must Vista will be in better shape and upgrading will seem entirely justified. but i'm not one who has to have the very latest right away.

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HawgsHead

XP wasnt $400.00 friggen dollars!

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Rig specs to the left in the boxes....X-Box 360 w/Hitachi 42" HDTV....If Darwins theory of evolution is true then why are monkeys still monkeys?It takes much more faith to believe in Darwin's theory over the Genesis account of creation.

HawgsHead

No chance of Gates dropping 100 dollar bills over my house...I dont live in Africa.

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Rig specs to the left in the boxes....X-Box 360 w/Hitachi 42" HDTV....If Darwins theory of evolution is true then why are monkeys still monkeys?It takes much more faith to believe in Darwin's theory over the Genesis account of creation.

SFOSOK

Then go live in Africa

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*Warning* - Explicit Content Preceeding



METAL!!

Zardon

Weird - XP Pro cost about £200 here when it came out. some places are selling vista ultimate for £170. so its less. Especially when you take into account inflation over the years ......

I personally don't see the big deal. In the grand scheme of things an OS is great value as you use it every time you turn on your PC for possibly 2-3 years or more, right?. I think most of us have paid for a £40 game we have played for 10 hours before.......

I guess it is cool to whinge about MS and gates, im not just really feeling it. Its just a business and they run it well and make a lot of money. I like their products. Feel free to flame me.

Judas

actually apon XP launch, XP Pro cost roughly 600 bucks CAD at some of the cheapest places. I recall walking into the expensive places that were asking close to 700 and that's BEFORE taxes.

Now, Vista launch, ultimate i've been so far recommended to sell her for roughly 600 bucks... but we'll see when the actual price tag makes it to me.

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Zelig

Nevermind that I can already pre-order it for under $300 CAD.

I used to think OS prices were too high, and was generally a critic of MS. Since taking some economic classes, I haven't become a big fan of MS, but realize they should sell the OS at whatever price brings them the most profit (or that they think will bring them the most long run profit). If people can't afford it, they shouldn't be using it.

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Judas

Where zelig?

if i can get a link to a dealer already setting aside preorder for the ultimate for only 300 CAD, my gaud what a deal.

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DudeBoyz

I was kinda mad that I was forced to move from Windows 98 SE because they stopped certifying drivers, stopped providing developer support for 98 SE in both drivers and apps, and dropped all the security / bug fix development for the platform.

I totally dug how I could just Reboot to MS DOS mode without any hassle.

Anyway, I was upset when they kinda just abandoned Windows 2000 Pro. It has been a FANTASTIC business client OS.

Now with XP, they dropped support for anything except SP2. I still wish they would support SP1, cause some apps I use never did get fixed to work with SP2 and I had to stop using them. Yeah, they were free, but I really sort of relied on them.

Now I'm concerned they are going to stop allowing compilation of apps for not only Windows 2000, which they are apparently already doing, but soon for Windows XP. I hate that they may stop supporting bug and security fixes for XP, may stop driver development and support, and stuff like that.

I have totally given up on ANY other Microsoft products except for the Operating System. I need to use this compatible platform that supports the apps I need to do what I do. I legally owned Office 95, 97, 2000 and XP and I stopped at 2000. I will probably never purchase any Microsoft programs again, including Office, if I can possibly help it.

Open Office is very usable, and they don't change the file formats and programming language to make it incompatible with each update. They haven't totally redesigned the interface to such a degree that it's almost unusable without dedicated retraining. It's going to just KILL productivity for a while, especially with contractors.

Windows XP was bad enough but at least they stuck with only 2 core versions for a long time - XP Home and XP Pro. Now there's way too many versions, and more and more incompatibilities are being discovered. They changed the UI, button sizes/locations on the main window, etc. It just sucks.

I only adopted Windows XP reluctantly - I really prefered 98 SE for gaming with my older stuff, and certainly preferred Windows 2000 Pro for my main OS. XP just has a bunch of stuff I don't need or want in there, especially in a corporate environment. Besides, the registry thing is just so tenuous. Corrupt that one file, and you are screwed. I miss the old INI files that were isolated, in standard ASCII format and were easily edited from a boot disk to fix issues, do compares, etc.

Anyway, I'm too long winded. But I too am VERY frustrated by Microsoft. But as much as I like most of OS X, the apps I need and have are on the Windows platform, and it's just too productive and established for me to change over completely, even if I wish I could.

Darn Freakin' Monopoly...

Zelig

Vista Ultimate Upgrade DVD - $304.61
Vista Ultimate DVD - $503.41

No OEM editions available yet though, and with those prices, it's cheaper to buy XP and an upgrade edition than a simple copy of Vista Ultimate.

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HawgsHead

And listen too what i'm telling you....It's not gonna be that long before the govt. steps in and breaks up Mocrosoft.Just like they did Ma Bell.I can remember my parents paying there phone bill....back in lets say 1979,when I graduated high school.The phone bill was $10-$12.....My phone bill today runs from $55-$65 bux per month.Not counting long distance.

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Rig specs to the left in the boxes....X-Box 360 w/Hitachi 42" HDTV....If Darwins theory of evolution is true then why are monkeys still monkeys?It takes much more faith to believe in Darwin's theory over the Genesis account of creation.

DudeBoyz

They had the chance in the Clinton administration, but they chickened out and let the Republicans take over and basically kill the investigation.

I can't see them breaking them up. If it was going to happen, that was when the chance was and they caved in.

Bill Gates controls about 100 billion dollars in charity funds now (his plus that other guys money) and is a HUGE force in that area and can basically write his own ticket.

I'm just speculating really, but that's kinda how I feel.

OmegaRED

I agree, this is one of the lamest things Microsoft has ever done.

Ok old timer. Do you even know how few games are on the MAC? I think the MAC ads got it wrong it should have been the stuffy suit guy as MAC and the young guy as the PC that would reflect the reality.

Be amused all you want by PC users complaining that's what happens when you have a good thing taken away, MAC users have so little so the jokes on you.

I paid $125 on Launch day for my copy of Xp and all it lacked from Pro version was remote desktop. Equivalent versions of Vista cost hundreds more and you are forced to buy it if you ever want to game in DX10, which will eventually be the only choice just as PS3.0 is all there is for many PC games.

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Matth

Given the current price of DX10 hardware, it doesn't really matter that it needs Vista, DX10 hardware and as yet unreleased DX10 software to rake advantage of it.

Fast forward to when DX10 hardware hits the mainstream (and it's got to be inevitable that it will), then it remains to be seen if MS choose to reconsider and issue some form of DX10 compatibility for XP, more to support companies writing game software (including themselves) than for the user's benefit.


The divide is not as negative as it could be, since DX10 must be fully implemented in hardware, so there will be no half measures.

So there are effectively 3 Platforms, with minor variants:
1. Vista on DX10 hardware (great, all you're waiting for is the software)
2. Vista on DX9 hardware
3. XP - DX9 platform only
3a. XP - DX9 driver over DX10 hardware (not so stupid, as the Geforce 8800 seems to be replacing the top of the 7-series, and does have adequate DX9 drivers for XP)

In case 2, when/if DX10 becomes a major performance issue, DX10 hardware must be purchased, while in case 3a, and upgrade to Vista is currently the way forward.

Ultimately, games writers will have to wait a long time to turn their back on DX9, while the momentum of DX10 is slightly less than if it were supported on XP as well.

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Mary had a little lamb,
Her father shot it dead
Now Mary takes her lamb to school,
Between two crusts of bread

DudeBoyz

Why are so many people so anxious to go out and get Vista NOW? Why not wait until some of these issues get worked out?

SFOSOK

Because they know the price will never come down so there is no difference getting all the cool new stuff now or later.

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*Warning* - Explicit Content Preceeding



METAL!!

DudeBoyz

But the bleeding edge is painful! If you all just wait until the first service pack is out, and the drivers and apps are fixed, you can avoid a ton of hassle.

It's like you all KNOW that if you get it when it first comes out, you are going to have some serious troubles, but you do it anyway and then folks complain like there's no tomorrow.

I just don't get it. Masochism in view...

Zelig

Because I skipped buying XP, and would like an OS to play my games on.

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pr0digal jenius

Yer parents payed 5 cents a gallon for gas and returned coke bottles to the drug store for a refund too, but clearly you can't fathom the economic trends of inflation and COLA increases


XP sold at circuit city for $399 for a full install copy of XP Pro, hell...go to the store TODAY...they'll charge you $220 for an XP upgrade disc.


i also have a hard time feeling sorry for you...look at your computer hardware....you throw down mad $$ ons tuff you keep for 6 monthes like video cards.....and bitch about paying $400 for a peice of software that without it, your hardware is useless, and also you'll use for YEARS.


shut up man....if you don't wanna pay, go with linux or mac...but you'd just bitch about not having any good games then.


So, to sum it up: before you come in here whining about bill gates, why don't you realize just how much windows costs:

$400....365 days a year...we'll say 3 years until you need to buy a new OS, so...1095 days on Vista. Now, let's say you sue the PC 5 days a week, or 5/7 of those days...then you have ~782 days.

that's 51 cents a day to run vista...your phone bill is mroe then that, and you probably don't get half the usage out of it, and there wasn't half the work put into it.


I'm about to digress into the software development life cycle, so if that's "too complicated" or "isn't relevant"[bullshit], by all means, go back to sticking your thumb in your ass and complainign that it gets sore.

OK, windows vista is roughly estimated to be 10 million lines of code. The average coder has a pretty bad error/KLOC [error per 1000 lines of code] and only produces 6200 lines of code per year.

We'll say M$ has above average...by a lot...and say they do 200 lines of code a week, which comes out to over 10,000 lines a year....ok

They wrote vista in roughly 5 years, so 10 million divided by 5 is 2 million lines of code a year....10,000 lines a year per coder.....that required 200 coders. Let's say these guys make mediocre money for their field, and get $45,000 a year. 200 guys, 5 years....M$ is down $45,000,000

Now, they also have to test this code, since the most companies won't ship until there is below 10 errors per 1000 lines of code, and some want as few as 3, or in mroe critical applications, fractions [1 error per several KLOC]. Software testers, if they are any good at all, make $65,000 a year and up...many make $100,000 if they know they're job isnide out and backwards like they should.


So, we'll just say that M$ could easily be down another $25,000,000 on testing, and probably more like double that.


Then, there's requirements engineers, who have to write all the functional and non-functional requirements, before anything is written, and revise them throughout the process if they follow the spiral lifecycle as they should, and not the waterfall [M$ doing the wtaterfall I can't see happening].....this would again likely run into the millions of dollars.



so...basically...M$ put in their work, I promise.


and as for you in particular...someone with PCs...PLURAL...like yours whining about the cost of yours is enough to make people like me dragging our ass through the restaurant industry to pay for a car and a wedding want to reach through the monitor and smack that blissfully ignorant grin off your face. Be appreciative of what you've got, and shut the [COLOR="Red"]FUCK[/COLOR] up next time you feel like whining about $400 software you WANT, when clearly, home edition would do you just fine, ya jackass

Geminiwave

you also could always just wait. XP went down in price pretty fast.

or find a deal. theres always good deals.

Or I dunno where you live exactly but MS does lots of playtesting and usability testing. you could always do a test and get a free copy of vista.

or spend $200 on a dell and get a copy of vista. LOL

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pr0digal jenius

or buy the OEM copy for half price like the rest of the world...but then circuit city won't isntall ti for you for $40

OmegaRED

Prodigal convinced me we shouldn't whine about MS so I'm just gonna go steal it

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pr0digal jenius

lol


i still don't see why people can't buy a new $500 "computer part" [that's what windows is] every 3-5 years or so

OmegaRED

It's one thing to pay 500 for a Geforce8800 to play DX10 games but quite another to pay another 500 just to use DX10 on Vista. I can see why Windows is so commonly pirated.

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Lelisevis

Pr0digal can I just say that is probably my favourite ever post I have ever read in any forum ever. Thats a lot of evers.

Im not trying to be witty or clever or smart or anything but that post was actually interesting and thoughtful to read. You delivered the argument perfectly backed up with facts and figures that really got me thinking. Thankyou.

Oh and my opinion is that Windows is worth every penny. Try owning a PC without it and see how much fun you have. Im the first to admit that Vista has been an ultimate fuckup but still I know it's new and to be expected. DirectX10 will prove it's worth in time, im not the most program savvy person ever but I know something has to be going on inside that expensive hardware or i'd still be installing DX1.

OldBuzzard

Hmmm...by your logic, if I buy VISTA for $500, then it's ok for me to go steal a $500 DX10 video card.

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When looking for a reason as to why things go wrong, never rule out sheer STUPIDITY

OmegaRED

Legally, no, but you have my blessing. If caught, run like hell.

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