skylineaddict

So, when I heard about Codemasters making a new F1 game, I was justifiably pumped like Pamela Anderson's breasts. An F1 game for PC hasn't been made since 2002 I think, and the games that have F1 mods have been made in 2006 or earlier. But, along with that feeling of elation, I had a pang of disappointment because Codemasters was making the game. Yes, they are a good company. Hell, they made DiRT 1 and 2 and GRID. What's wrong with that?


Well, I'll tell you. DiRT and GRID had the worst controller input I've EVER seen in a game, even worse than the Gran Turismo series (Which is EXTREMELY bad by the way). In order to corner effectively, you have to put the wheel in full lock, which if you know how cornering works in a car, you never have to put the wheel in full lock unless you are going through a really tight corner. Not to mention the response was incredibly flawed. If you snapped the wheel to the right, the in-game wheels would turn at a constant, slow speed, which meant if you snapped the wheel to the left after the in-game wheel caught up with you, it would take about half a second before the wheel would turn fully to the left. Basically, the game isn't using raw input, which is EXTREMELY annoying.


I figured since F1 2010 was advertised as being "so-realistic", I thought they would change a few things with the input problems, but no. Alas! the input system is exactly the same, sluggish piece of crap we saw in DiRT and GRID. It's an even bigger problem in this game because of the class of cars in it. This is Formula 1! The fastest sport on the planet, and here's Codemasters butchering that speed with an input system that reminds me, in some respects, of a senile 90 year-old with Alzheimer's. I can't even take a chicane properly because when I snap the wheel back in the opposite direction, the wheel in the game is still taking me in the opposite direction to my input.


This has nothing to do with the arcade - simulation battle. This has everything to do with the fact that Codemasters can't get an input system right. They need to learn a few things from Simbin, because they know how to make them.


I will touch on the simulation - arcade battle a bit though, mostly because F1 2010 was advertised as being "realistic." If you're going to advertise yourself as real, don't make an arcade game. That is my main complaint. They had an F1 racer in their studio helping them make the physics engine and fine-tune the handling, yet it turned out to be as fine-tuned as a deaf-person's ears. I was meant to save the tires in a race, yet I cannot tell when the rear wheels are spinning unless I'm actually spinning out. They spin and there's very little loss of traction, which is beyond unrealistic. That's probably the only complaint I have about the arcade feel of the game. The cornering, sounds, graphics, and some of the car behaviors are really good, almost realistic (It can never be truly realistic because it is a game after all).

All-in-all, it is quite a terrible game. The input lag is the main killer. Without it, I would've been able to deal with the arcade feel of the game just fine. Just like DiRT and GRID, I shall not be playing it again, and neither should you!

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Couldn't come up with anything snappy to say, so I'll just be awkward.

Veridian3

Do the same problems occur for you when using a gamepad? I have played D1/2 and Grid loads with my 360 controller and it always felt fine to me.

skylineaddict

Yeah, I used a wheel and a gamepad. I guess I'm just picky about the way it steers. I like the steering in the game to be as fast my input. I also like small inputs for corrections to be read.

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BlueMak

Hmm, I don't have a wheel, but of all the things I don't like with Codemasters' modern games, control is not one of them. They are perhaps the only one left who still provide good controls even if you use the keyboard (which I don't).
With a 360 wired gamepad, no problems in any of them.

As for F1 2010, I don't have the game so I can't comment on that and even when I buy it (because I will 100% buy it eventually), I will probably get the PS3 version and I only have a gamepad for it too.

Have you tried to change the settings? I don't know about F1 2010, but in their previous games, Codemasters have plenty of options for the controls and setting them up exactly as you wish, including of course, sensitivity and dead zone for each axis etc.

Or perhaps your wheel is not good enough or at least good for this game?

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

BlueMak

btw, Dirt 1 and 2 and Grid and F1 2010, use the same engine, so if you have problems with one, it's normal to have with others,

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

Tyrsonswood

I don't have F1 and may not get it because F1 isn't a favorite form of racing, but I have no problem with Grid/DiRT2/Dirt using a joystick.... control seems very good, responsive, and immediate...... I had a Thrustmaster wheel for a short while and it worked even better until it broke ....... Damned hairpins.

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Liqourice

After playing around with the game over the weekend I must say I have no idea what you're talking about. Something must be wrong with your controllers because it feels just fine to me.

I'm using my good old Thrustmaster Modena 360 that I got back in 2002 and it works just fine. The input feels definately real to me and I do have racing experience mind you. So far only driven on the Bahrain curcuit but there's only two places on the entire track that I need to use the steering to max and those are some really tight corners.

Senor_Mota

I'm a big racing game fan and I have to disagree with your opinion, I thought the game handled fine. What I had a problem with was the detection graphics and artifact issues that consistently happen while racing. I can't tell you how many times I ran into another racer, yet I was at least 10-20 feet away from their car. I lost a few races because of that fact. I had the same problem in DiRT (never played 2), especially during any "Grand Prix" race. I got sick of losing because I haphazardly ran into some CPU douchebag, even though I'm in First place and far away from their noses.

As for your issue with the Gran Turismo series, I always thought most of the cars handled pretty well, especially in GT2 (which is weird, because it's way older). That Opel Tigra pimped out on a Rally race is still some of the most fun I've ever had with a plastic steering wheel and cheap pedals.

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blibbax

I've played Grid a lot recently, and have played GT4 a huge amount of time in the past. I do kinda agree about using full lock to corner being stupid, but I don't think that's what the game is trying to represent. The amount of lock applied by turning the analogue stick all the way evidently varies with your speed, which is fine, because you'd never turn to full lock at 100 mph anyway. And it would b highly unrealistic for the driver to have the strength to do so in a split second.

When flicking the steering from right to left or visa versa, yes obviously the wheels to not reflect that chane instantly, but do you think any F1 driver could flick from right to left lock at speed as fast as you can on your controller at home? That would be even worse.

Driving games could be made to overcome this lack of realism if everyone played on wheels, that could then be programmed to resist your turning reaction like the wheel in a real car, and to have number of turns to lock that varied according to what you are driving (the car on my drive is 3.5 turns lock to lock. F1 cars are nowhere near that).

However, as most of us are playing on gamepads and some on keyboards, games have to make a compromise to get the best of this situation.

Racing games are not realistic, they are far easier and less punishing than the real thing. Playing with driver aids disabled can help to make for a more responsive drive and a car that feels less like it's on rails, though, so maybe try that :P

Edit: Nonetheless, + rep to skyline for well thought out and thought provoking post.

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Liqourice

You just cannot compare the steering on a F1 with a normal car. An F1 has a turning radius that is huge compared to a normal car. Not even the Rallye cars have the same type of steering as a normal car, it's all been changed to allow for a more direct steering and with all the suspension changes and everything compared to the normal production care are huge, it's two different cars really, they just look similar.

Any car will not turn into a corner if the speed is to high. True, the F1's have a lot of downforce but remember that the lower the speed the lower the downforce. If you were able to take a 90 degree corner at full throttle the game would be anything but realistic.

blibbax

This is exactly my point

If the movement of the wheels of the car in the game exactly reflected the movement of your finger on the controls, you would be able to flick any car (F1 or otherwise) to full lock in a fraction of a second at any speed.

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skylineaddict

I'm just used to the control system that GTR2 has. Even with a gamepad, that game is a joy to play. That game has handling advertised as realistic, and yes, it is very realistic. My issue with F1 is that they advertise realism but they really don't get too close to reality. If you've ever tried playing F1 99-02 on PC or one of the many F1 mods for GTR2, you'd know just how hard it is to handle an F1 car without driver aids. In F1 2010, I drove with no aids and I was able to put full throttle exiting a corner and not have the wheels spin at all. In GTR2 F1 2008 mod, the slightest twitch in the steering and you'll find yourself making dust out of carbon fiber, even if you're not pushing the car too hard.

As for the controls on F1, I was wrong. My gamepad has extremely slow response, so I just gave up trying to play with that. I borrowed a wheel from a friend and that worked better, but it still wasn't great. All-in-all, it is a good game for people that like arcade racers but want a semi-real simulation. It's just not for me because I'm a hardcore simulator fan, and I think that's what my rant boils down to in the end. It still doesn't avoid the fact that Codemasters advertised a realistic game. The most realistic thing about the game is the graphics, and everything else is just short of what they advertised.

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Liqourice

Well, I don't agree with you at all. If it were completely realistic noone without experience would be able to play it at all. With 10 years in carting and a few races in formula renault I can tell you that if the cars ingame were to handle anywhere near what they do in reality you'd give up after a few laps and never try again.

At the same time, an F1 has a grip that's second to none. An F1 IS more stable on the track than any of the lesser classes, it needs to be since it's so much faster, otherwise it would be impossible to drive even for the most experienced drivers.

Just take a look at some old clips from the mid 70's on the F1's back then.. they drove them sideways sometimes to get them round the corners.. that's almost impossible to do with todays cars. A handful of drivers can do that and still keep the car going without spinning. The grip is immense but when you lose it you lose it and there's nothing you can do about it.

In all essence I think the game is as close to realistic as it can get if they want people to buy it. Any closer and it would fail miserably.

I know the right game for you if you want realistic. Grand Prix Legends. It's old, it came out in 1998, but it's extremely hard to master those cars.

blibbax

I've played GTR2, and it is very different to other driving games, and I daresay more realistic.

It isn't, however, totally realistic (how can driving with a controller ever be?) and leaves a lot to be desired in other areas. I'd go as far as to say that Grid (which is based on the same engine as F1 as has been mentioned) is a better game overall.

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skylineaddict

Yes, F1 cars have an insane amount of grip, but put a ~700HP engine into a chassis that weighs little over half a ton, then you have a car that will be inherently unstable without driver aids. The only reason only elites drive F1 cars is because they are so hard to handle (Ever watched the Top Gear episode where Hammy drives the Renault F1 car?).

And yes, in GTR2, the cars are extremely difficult to handle. When I downloaded the Formula 3000 and Nippon GT mods for the game, I spun on pretty much every corner when I turned the driver aids off, but I managed to practice enough to where I could get a decent lap in without any aids. The same goes for the F1 mod. You should get GTR 2 or GTR Evo and download the mods that best simulate real cars. I can guarantee you that they will be very close to what you experienced on the track. And if those games don't do it for you, Live for Speed most likely will.

Of course I don't have the racing experience you have and I wouldn't know how a high performance car handles, but neither of us have driven an F1 car, so neither of us can speculate as to how they handle. I can however say that from what I saw on Top Gear, I doubt they are as stable as you think they are.

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Couldn't come up with anything snappy to say, so I'll just be awkward.

Liqourice

I said in my previous post that they handle a lot easier ingame than they do for real. I also said why. Everyone would give up after 10 minutes if it handled exactly as a real car. Well, most anyway..

I haven't driven an F1 either so I don't know how it handles either. I plan to try as soon as I can, there are places in the world where you can do that. Yes, I've seen that Top Gear episode and no, I wasn't surprised at all that he had such difficulties handling it.

I wish just as you that the game would have been more realistic but I'm also realistic enough myself to understand that it can't be done if they want the game to sell.

BlueMak

Aren't there limitations on who can drive a F1 car, on the size of the driver? Any idea what they are?

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

blibbax

Not sure Bluemak, you considering a career change? :P

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Tyrsonswood

Well... one does have to fit in the car........

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BlueMak

What's a career?

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

skylineaddict

Gotta have the green and the petite figure to fit in

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Couldn't come up with anything snappy to say, so I'll just be awkward.

Liqourice

There have been "big" drivers. Thing is, if you're gonna be successful from the start, in carting, you have to be light. Unless you drive supercarts, then it really doesn't matter, you can be big and fat, but that's not a steppingstone for higher classes anyway. The ones who start driving supercarts are generally those who don't move up to formula class cars.

In general you can say that in the 100cc carting classes you can't weigh more than 75 kilos. However, if you weigh less than that you can use weights to create a better weight balance over the chassis so it's a definite advantage if you are lighter. Hence, the ones that become successful are generally those that are a bit smaller and lighter.

In an F1 it really doesn't matter that much but since the majority of drivers are short the cars are built for short people and a taller one will have difficulties to fit in. A person that's big on the other dimensions than height won't have much of a chance anyway, you need a lot of endurance to be able to drive one of these cars for two hours. More heavy set people can be very strong but often lack the endurance to keep it up long enough.

There has been exceptions to all of this throughout the F1 history of course but they are quite rare. The tallest F1 driver ever was Englishman Justin Wilson at 6' 3"

BWX

I got F1 2010 release day for PS3. While it has some bugs that are getting patched, control input, at least o the PS3 is actually very good. I have a Logitech G25, in F1 2010 it has active stops around 180º or so anf the input, force feedback, and overall feel are excellent.

If you have decent wheel and pedals try these settings:
----saturation, deadzones----
-Steering deadzone - 0
-Steering saturation - 100
-Steering linearity - 100
-Throttle deadzone - 0
-Throttle saturation - 100
-Brake deadzone - 0
-Brake saturation -100

-----Force feedback-----
-Environmental effects - 100
-Feedback strength - 100
-Wheel weight - 30 to 40

I know with wheel weight set to 0, for me it is 10X harder to control car, at 100 it feels dead and lifeless. That setting makes a big difference. 20 seems too low, 50 seems too high.

Now about Gran Turismo, of which I've owned and played though all of them, some multiple times-- you cannot really compare GT 1, 2, and 3 with GT4 when it comes to wheel input.. but you definitely cant compare GT1, 2, 3, and 4 with GT5 Prologue. GT5P has really good wheel support, especially with the G25. There's none of that lag you talk about, which I never saw in GT4 either. GT5's physics engine runs at 60hz, whereas all the GT's before it run at 30hz,so GT5 should even be better.

I've played Grid, iRacing, LOTS of rFactor, LOTS of GTR2, LOTS of Richard Burns Rally, and just about every other PC race sim/game. F1 2010 has some issues that need a patch, but when they do patch it and fix those issues, it will be IMO one of the best race sims/games of all time. The immersion in the career mode is without equal.. it's amazing. The physics and driving feel are awesome and extremely fun, if a little forgiving at times.. *but not all the time. If they don't get those issues worked out it will be sad, but I think they will. [All] F1 2010 Patch News - Codemasters Forums

GT5 is going to be epic. I have my Collectors edition on pre-order. There won't be any controller lag you speak of in that either. It's going to be one of the best racing games in history. As far as the driving model, I think you could classify it as a simulation with all the driving aids turned off. Same with F1 2010.
Gran Turismo 5 News at GTPlanet

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