CART or F1 ??

Smoothdrive · Sep 17, 2002, 11:55 AM

It's most likely going to be another Euro-American conflict so might as well start it here..

My opinion :

F1 is definatelly the superiour racing class, better cars, better drivers..yet somehow the Americans seem to prefer Cart..is this just since there are US drivers in it or what ?

Sure the racing is closer in CART, but so is it in F3000, Touring car championships or even go-kart racing.. F1 is the highest possible in autosports since the best drivers in the world drive there in the most technically advanced cars.

fornicatarachnid · Sep 17, 2002, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smoothdrive

Sure the racing is closer in CART, .

This just about sums it up as far as Im concerned, surely thats the whole point, to actually race. I love F1 and watch every race but recently it has become more like a procession than a race with the big money teams, Ferrari, Williams and McClaren, always out in front with the rest scrapping over the minor places.

Sure, the cars in F1 are more technologically advanced than Carts but thats where the problem lies, the big money teams are always going to be faster than the smaller teams due to their seemingly unlimited budget.

The powers that be in F1 have got to do something to try and get closer racing, maybe scrapping all the electronic aids (again) would be a good place to start as this would put more emphasis on the skill of the drivers and not the actual car. Anything that can be done to make the cars more evenly matched should be done as far as Im concerned.

I can't really comment on Cart racing because I haven't seen enough of it but the little I have seen seems to be a lot more exiting than F1 solely because the racing is closer.

UberLord · Sep 17, 2002, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fornicatarachnid
This just about sums it up as far as Im concerned, surely thats the whole point, to actually race. I love F1 and watch every race but recently it has become more like a procession than a race with the big money teams, Ferrari, Williams and McClaren, always out in front with the rest scrapping over the minor places.

Please tell me how this is different from other sports like football in the UK where it becomes a parade with the big money clubs, Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal, always out in front with the rest scrapping over the minor places?

fornicatarachnid · Sep 17, 2002, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UberLord
Please tell me how this is different from other sports like football in the UK where it becomes a parade with the big money clubs, Man Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal, always out in front with the rest scrapping over the minor places?

The difference with football is that money doesn't always buy success. Anybody knows that a lowly third division side can take on a top Premier league side and on their day beat them, thats football, its a totally different 'ball' game. When was the last time a Minardi for example won a Grand Prix ?

Smoothdrive · Sep 17, 2002, 03:07 PM

True, having enough money will get you the best designers and best mechanics so your car should be better than a less funded team like Minardi..than again Renault, Toyota and Jaguar should be better since they also have big budgets.. We have seen other teams that were superiour for a few years in the past..

Jeff · Sep 18, 2002, 11:43 PM

Toyota has just finished their first year, so they are doing about as I had expected, as they were using basically test drivers to race the car this season. Next year I expect them to do even better. Oh, and I prefer F1...Never really ever watch CART.

Smoothdrive · Sep 19, 2002, 08:54 AM

I wouldn't say Mika Salo is a test driver..but i agree on you with it being their first year and so on..

C0NAN · Sep 19, 2002, 11:49 AM

I love F1 but I'm really getting bored with Michael Schumacher winning almost everything. No doubt he's a good driver but I hate his sense of sportsmanship in taking out Damon Hill to win a championship and trying to do the same to Villeneuve, though it backfired.

skastel · Sep 19, 2002, 03:51 PM

huh? oh I'm sorry I couldn't hear you over the sheer excitement and tremendous driver skill comming from WRC! Long live rally, even back in the heyday of the Audi S1

<what a car that was!> it was the superior race. Rally takes more driver skill and travels at almost equal speeds on trails the drivers have never seen before! They only have their co-pilot to guide them and have to dodge rocks, stumps, cliffs, etc. with split-second reactions! Nevermind, CART or F1(though both have their place) they just don't compare to WRC.

Jeff · Sep 19, 2002, 11:41 PM

In your opinion... lol. Anyways, yes i agree about Mika Salo, but I think he's lost his touch. I think Toyota has a lot of potential. And Panis should help (I HOPE). I am an F1/Rally man, but I know more specifics about F1 than Rally, although i like watching rally a ton!!!

Zardon · Sep 19, 2002, 11:44 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Cyborg
And Panis should help (I HOPE)!

wash your mouth out, using words like that on the board.

UberLord · Sep 19, 2002, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fornicatarachnid
The difference with football is that money doesn't always buy success. Anybody knows that a lowly third division side can take on a top Premier league side and on their day beat them, thats football, its a totally different 'ball' game. When was the last time a Minardi for example won a Grand Prix ?

Didn't Panis win Le Mons a few years back driving for Prost Team (now defunct)?

kinetic · Sep 20, 2002, 12:02 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by UberLord
Didn't Panis win Le Mons a few years back driving for Prost Team (now defunct)?

He won the Monaco Grand Prix in May, 1996 driving for Ligier, his one and only win to date.

Smoothdrive · Sep 20, 2002, 08:37 AM

Didn't McNish drive WRC in the past ?? he doesn't impress in F1..

About schumacher..well yes he did some naughty things in the past to win..than again there's no doubt he simply is the best driver at the moment..too bad he drive's the fastest car at the moment.

Most races are pretty good if you look what happens around pos 4-9 there's some nice battles there..

Still i feel we need to get rid off those driver aids..dumping the traction control and the automatic gears will seperate the boys from the man in F1 I think..especially in the rain..it seems like the aids just help the lesser drivers improve while the better drivers stayed about the same and of course these aids are better in the better cars thus eliminating the drivers' effect more and more

UberLord · Sep 20, 2002, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by kinetic
He won the Monaco Grand Prix in May, 1996 driving for Ligier, his one and only win to date.

That was the one. (Hey - at least I got the driver right!)

UberLord · Sep 20, 2002, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smoothdrive
Still i feel we need to get rid off those driver aids..dumping the traction control and the automatic gears will seperate the boys from the man in F1 I think..especially in the rain..it seems like the aids just help the lesser drivers improve while the better drivers stayed about the same and of course these aids are better in the better cars thus eliminating the drivers' effect more and more

But racing cars is about man and machine. Who has the best driver/car combo, etc. (rhetorical - I know it's Ferrari)

Smoothdrive · Sep 23, 2002, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by UberLord
But racing cars is about man and machine. Who has the best driver/car combo, etc. (rhetorical - I know it's Ferrari)

That's my point..now they just hit the gas flat out when they start and when they exit corners and they don't have to worry about changing gears or anything. so basically the only thing that still is driver-skill dependand is the braking and the steering..in the past you saw drivers drift out of corners since they were to eager or you saw the slow on corner exit because they were in wrong gear and things like that so than a driver could make much more difference. Also at the start the difference were bigger

UberLord · Sep 23, 2002, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smoothdrive
That's my point..now they just hit the gas flat out when they start and when they exit corners and they don't have to worry about changing gears or anything.

F1 cars are semi-automatic - you still have to change gear.

Quote:

so basically the only thing that still is driver-skill dependand is the braking and the steering..[

And other such driving manouvers such as over-taking and blocking

Quote:

in the past you saw drivers drift out of corners since they were to eager or you saw the slow on corner exit because they were in wrong gear and things like that so than a driver could make much more difference.

You still see this all the time - people locking up front types because they went to fast into the corner, etc. The driver still makes the difference as was shown by Nigel Mansel when he won in a Williams - consistently a minute a head of his teammate when he won the races. If the car was so damn good, why wasn't his teammate up with him? Ditto Schumacher for Benneton and the first few years at Ferrari with Irvine. Barachelo appears to be able to keep up

Quote:

Also at the start the difference were bigger

You mean they had more cars? hmmmm

Smoothdrive · Sep 23, 2002, 01:31 PM

So you're claiming the driver makes as much difference now as 10 years ago ?

Is all about cornering speed and late braking..those are the only 2 options a driver has to be faster than the next one..surely they all drive the ideal line so nothing to be gained there..all the rest is just car setup and car performance.

The fact that Barrichello can keep up with Shummi is all the proof i need for knowing that drivers do not make as much of a difference as they used to.

PS your examples are all from before the introduction of launch and traction control.

UberLord · Sep 23, 2002, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smoothdrive
So you're claiming the driver makes as much difference now as 10 years ago ?

Yes

Quote:

Is all about cornering speed and late braking..those are the only 2 options a driver has to be faster than the next one..surely they all drive the ideal line so nothing to be gained there..all the rest is just car setup and car performance.

So the driver has no say in the car setup like downforce, tyres, etc which in turn affects the cars performance? Damn

Also, the ideal racing line differs slightly per car and the way it's been setup. Cars with greater downforce (as specified by the driver + his team) can take tighter loops around corners, whereas cards with less have to take wider and slower loops.

Quote:

The fact that Barrichello can keep up with Shummi is all the proof i need for knowing that drivers do not make as much of a difference as they used to.

And the fact that Irvine could not keep up when he was the 2nd driver @ Ferrari is proof that drivers do make a difference. Maybe you are right and Ferrari gave Irvine a much worse car

Quote:

PS your examples are all from before the introduction of launch and traction control.

I thought that when Mansel won in the Williams was the year traction control was introduced into F1 ???

And as to your whole argument - if the driver makes little difference, then let's see you win a F1 GP in a Ferrari then

Smoothdrive · Sep 23, 2002, 02:51 PM

Damn your hard-headed today...

Irvine is a better driver than Barrichello..simple as that.

In the time Irvine drove for Ferrari the driver input made much more difference than now. 80% of the drivers in the field today would win in the Ferrari.., Frentzen would, Ralf schum. would, Montoya would, DC Would, Irvine Would, Pedro would,Heidfeld would, and so on and so on... even Massa and maybe even Sato would win in the Ferrari these days.

The day that a Jordan could win a race on own strengt on a good day is long past us..even if you were to put Shummi in a Jordan he would never be able to win..simply because the driver can not make that much difference anymore these days.

And no i would not win..simply because i do not have the skill to drive a race car at F1 level...as bad as we think Yoong might be..he'ld still kick all our asses in a race

PS williams had traction control before..however they were the only ones that had it than..later it was outlawed and was only re-introduced 2 years ago

fornicatarachnid · Sep 23, 2002, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UberLord

Maybe you are right and Ferrari gave Irvine a much worse car

I think Barrichello has a case agaisnt Ferrari this season for his car. The amount of 'bad luck' he has had this season compared to his team-mate is uncanny.

fornicatarachnid · Sep 23, 2002, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UberLord

And as to your whole argument - if the driver makes little difference, then let's see you win a F1 GP in a Ferrari then

lol I hope you're not serious with this one Uber ?

UberLord · Sep 23, 2002, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Smoothdrive
Damn your hard-headed today...

Just like any other day

Oh yeah - right back at ya!

Quote:

Irvine is a better driver than Barrichello..simple as that.

Personally I think it's the other way around there

Quote:

In the time Irvine drove for Ferrari the driver input made much more difference than now. 80% of the drivers in the field today would win in the Ferrari.., Frentzen would, Ralf schum. would, Montoya would, DC Would, Irvine Would, Pedro would,Heidfeld would, and so on and so on... even Massa and maybe even Sato would win in the Ferrari these days.

<John McEnroe>You cannot be serious man</John McEnroe>

Quote:

The day that a Jordan could win a race on own strengt on a good day is long past us..even if you were to put Shummi in a Jordan he would never be able to win..simply because the driver can not make that much difference anymore these days.

The day that a Jordan could win a race on it's own strength has never really been here. And it probably won't as they don't have the same money to throw at the entire package including drivers. Which is exactly why Reading FC will never win the Premier League - as they don't have the same ammount of money to throw at star players like say Man Utd or Arsenal.

But look at it like this. If you put Shummi into a Jordan and say Salo in a Ferrari, who would win? I'll put money on Shummi winning. He did at Beneton to make himself famous, why not for Jordan? It wasn't as if the Beneton's were the top car on paper either!

UberLord · Sep 23, 2002, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fornicatarachnid
lol I hope you're not serious with this one Uber ?

It would prove that the driver still makes a difference.
Has he got the nerve to take the corner just 1mph faster than his rival?
He could lose it and spin out, or he could nudge that little bit futher ahead. Are you going to grab the race by the horns and ride it for all it's worth, or just sit back and let the "all powerful ferrari" work its magic?

fornicatarachnid · Sep 23, 2002, 05:02 PM

Uberlord, I'm not disputing the fact that the driver makes a difference, he does, what I meant was the fact that you compared Smoothdrive to Schumacher which is totally unfair. That's like me giving you Tiger woods clubs and saying " Go for it, kick his arse" ....You wouldn't have a hope in hell because you're not a professional golfer, ( lol I don't think you are anyway

) just like Smoothdrives not an F1 driver ( in spite of his name lol

)

Ps. I have to agree with you about Barichello being a better driver than Irvine though

UberLord · Sep 23, 2002, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by fornicatarachnid
Uberlord, I'm not disputing the fact that the driver makes a difference, he does, what I meant was the fact that you compared Smoothdrive to Schumacher which is totally unfair. That's like me giving you Tiger woods clubs and saying " Go for it, kick his arse" ....You wouldn't have a hope in hell because you're not a professional golfer, ( lol I don't think you are anyway ) just like Smoothdrives not an F1 driver ( in spite of his name lol )

You missed the point of the entire argument. Taking golf in the same context is unfair, as it's all about human skill and not machine skill/speed which is definately the deciding factor. If that makes sense. It's the end of my working day and my brain has turned to mush!

fornicatarachnid · Sep 23, 2002, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UberLord
You missed the point of the entire argument. Taking golf in the same context is unfair, as it's all about human skill and not machine skill/speed which is definately the deciding factor. If that makes sense. It's the end of my working day and my brain has turned to mush!

I give up

Smoothdrive · Sep 24, 2002, 08:36 AM

Hey man i can drive a F1 car yeah cool uhuhuhuhuuuhhhuuuh

I just don not agree with you Uber..(almost) all drivers in F1 have the basic skill and speed neccesary to win a race
IMO the balance man/machine is about 25/75 these days.Only a really bad driver would not get on the podium with a Ferrari this season.

Of course it is part of the sport..not only the drivers need to be best but also the mechanics, designers, developers, management......it's a team effort.

And the story is teh same in every sport..the most money will be able to get the best team..specifik for F1 the most money will also be able to test & develop the most thus build the fastest car

fornicatarachnid · Sep 24, 2002, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by UberLord
Taking golf in the same context is unfair, as it's all about human skill and not machine skill/speed which is definately the deciding factor.!

mmmm, i remember somebody comparing it to football, who was that ?

Sep 17, 2002, 11:55 AM	#1
Smoothdrive Foolish Genius Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 455 Rep Power: 0	CART or F1 ?? It's most likely going to be another Euro-American conflict so might as well start it here.. My opinion : F1 is definatelly the superiour racing class, better cars, better drivers..yet somehow the Americans seem to prefer Cart..is this just since there are US drivers in it or what ? Sure the racing is closer in CART, but so is it in F3000, Touring car championships or even go-kart racing.. F1 is the highest possible in autosports since the best drivers in the world drive there in the most technically advanced cars. __________________ GA-7VRXP, AMD2000+, 256MB PC-2700 DDR, Radeon 8500LE, 2x Maxtor 740 (40GB) stripe set, AGNeovo X-150.

Sep 17, 2002, 03:07 PM	Thread Starter #5
Smoothdrive Foolish Genius Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 455 Rep Power: 0	True, having enough money will get you the best designers and best mechanics so your car should be better than a less funded team like Minardi..than again Renault, Toyota and Jaguar should be better since they also have big budgets.. We have seen other teams that were superiour for a few years in the past.. __________________ GA-7VRXP, AMD2000+, 256MB PC-2700 DDR, Radeon 8500LE, 2x Maxtor 740 (40GB) stripe set, AGNeovo X-150.

Sep 18, 2002, 11:43 PM	#6
Jeff Yarr... I be blind! Join Date: May 2002 Location: Calgary, Canada Posts: 3,191 Rep Power: 80	Toyota has just finished their first year, so they are doing about as I had expected, as they were using basically test drivers to race the car this season. Next year I expect them to do even better. Oh, and I prefer F1...Never really ever watch CART. __________________

Sep 19, 2002, 08:54 AM	Thread Starter #7
Smoothdrive Foolish Genius Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 455 Rep Power: 0	I wouldn't say Mika Salo is a test driver..but i agree on you with it being their first year and so on.. __________________ GA-7VRXP, AMD2000+, 256MB PC-2700 DDR, Radeon 8500LE, 2x Maxtor 740 (40GB) stripe set, AGNeovo X-150.

Sep 19, 2002, 11:49 AM	#8
C0NAN DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 52 Rep Power: 0	I love F1 but I'm really getting bored with Michael Schumacher winning almost everything. No doubt he's a good driver but I hate his sense of sportsmanship in taking out Damon Hill to win a championship and trying to do the same to Villeneuve, though it backfired. __________________ Thermaltake Xaser III V1000D Case 7 Cooler Master LED Fans P4 3.0C HT 800mhz @ 3.3 Ghz Asus P4P800 Deluxe 1 Gig Geil Ultra Platinum DDR 500 Memory Timing = 2.5-4-4-7-8 @ 2.65 volts Sapphire 9800 Pro 128mb Maxtor Diamond Max Plus 9 160 Gig Maxtor Diamond Max Plus 9 80 Gig Enermax EG465P-VE Power Supply

Sep 19, 2002, 03:51 PM	#9
skastel Massive Happiness Join Date: May 2002 Location: Boston, MA Posts: 238 Rep Power: 0	Long Live WRC!!! huh? oh I'm sorry I couldn't hear you over the sheer excitement and tremendous driver skill comming from WRC! Long live rally, even back in the heyday of the Audi S1 <what a car that was!> it was the superior race. Rally takes more driver skill and travels at almost equal speeds on trails the drivers have never seen before! They only have their co-pilot to guide them and have to dodge rocks, stumps, cliffs, etc. with split-second reactions! Nevermind, CART or F1(though both have their place) they just don't compare to WRC. __________________ Barton 2800+ @ 1998Mhz (12x166) Radeon 9700 Pro ASUS A7N 1 GB Corsair Low Latency PC3200 (2-2-2-5) SBLive! 5.1 WD 80GB JB Samsung DVD 16x+/12x-/2.4x Dual Layer Lite-On CD-R/RW 48x12x48x

Sep 19, 2002, 11:41 PM	#10
Jeff Yarr... I be blind! Join Date: May 2002 Location: Calgary, Canada Posts: 3,191 Rep Power: 80	In your opinion... lol. Anyways, yes i agree about Mika Salo, but I think he's lost his touch. I think Toyota has a lot of potential. And Panis should help (I HOPE). I am an F1/Rally man, but I know more specifics about F1 than Rally, although i like watching rally a ton!!! __________________

Sep 20, 2002, 08:37 AM	Thread Starter #14
Smoothdrive Foolish Genius Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 455 Rep Power: 0	Didn't McNish drive WRC in the past ?? he doesn't impress in F1.. About schumacher..well yes he did some naughty things in the past to win..than again there's no doubt he simply is the best driver at the moment..too bad he drive's the fastest car at the moment. Most races are pretty good if you look what happens around pos 4-9 there's some nice battles there.. Still i feel we need to get rid off those driver aids..dumping the traction control and the automatic gears will seperate the boys from the man in F1 I think..especially in the rain..it seems like the aids just help the lesser drivers improve while the better drivers stayed about the same and of course these aids are better in the better cars thus eliminating the drivers' effect more and more __________________ GA-7VRXP, AMD2000+, 256MB PC-2700 DDR, Radeon 8500LE, 2x Maxtor 740 (40GB) stripe set, AGNeovo X-150.

Sep 23, 2002, 01:31 PM	Thread Starter #19
Smoothdrive Foolish Genius Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 455 Rep Power: 0	So you're claiming the driver makes as much difference now as 10 years ago ? Is all about cornering speed and late braking..those are the only 2 options a driver has to be faster than the next one..surely they all drive the ideal line so nothing to be gained there..all the rest is just car setup and car performance. The fact that Barrichello can keep up with Shummi is all the proof i need for knowing that drivers do not make as much of a difference as they used to. PS your examples are all from before the introduction of launch and traction control. __________________ GA-7VRXP, AMD2000+, 256MB PC-2700 DDR, Radeon 8500LE, 2x Maxtor 740 (40GB) stripe set, AGNeovo X-150.

Sep 23, 2002, 02:51 PM	Thread Starter #21
Smoothdrive Foolish Genius Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 455 Rep Power: 0	Damn your hard-headed today... Irvine is a better driver than Barrichello..simple as that. In the time Irvine drove for Ferrari the driver input made much more difference than now. 80% of the drivers in the field today would win in the Ferrari.., Frentzen would, Ralf schum. would, Montoya would, DC Would, Irvine Would, Pedro would,Heidfeld would, and so on and so on... even Massa and maybe even Sato would win in the Ferrari these days. The day that a Jordan could win a race on own strengt on a good day is long past us..even if you were to put Shummi in a Jordan he would never be able to win..simply because the driver can not make that much difference anymore these days. And no i would not win..simply because i do not have the skill to drive a race car at F1 level...as bad as we think Yoong might be..he'ld still kick all our asses in a race PS williams had traction control before..however they were the only ones that had it than..later it was outlawed and was only re-introduced 2 years ago __________________ GA-7VRXP, AMD2000+, 256MB PC-2700 DDR, Radeon 8500LE, 2x Maxtor 740 (40GB) stripe set, AGNeovo X-150.

Sep 23, 2002, 05:02 PM	#26
fornicatarachnid Clanless Join Date: May 2002 Location: On the web, England UK Posts: 714 Rep Power: 0	Uberlord, I'm not disputing the fact that the driver makes a difference, he does, what I meant was the fact that you compared Smoothdrive to Schumacher which is totally unfair. That's like me giving you Tiger woods clubs and saying " Go for it, kick his arse" ....You wouldn't have a hope in hell because you're not a professional golfer, ( lol I don't think you are anyway ) just like Smoothdrives not an F1 driver ( in spite of his name lol ) Ps. I have to agree with you about Barichello being a better driver than Irvine though

Sep 24, 2002, 08:36 AM	Thread Starter #29
Smoothdrive Foolish Genius Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Amsterdam Posts: 455 Rep Power: 0	Hey man i can drive a F1 car yeah cool uhuhuhuhuuuhhhuuuh I just don not agree with you Uber..(almost) all drivers in F1 have the basic skill and speed neccesary to win a race IMO the balance man/machine is about 25/75 these days.Only a really bad driver would not get on the podium with a Ferrari this season. Of course it is part of the sport..not only the drivers need to be best but also the mechanics, designers, developers, management......it's a team effort. And the story is teh same in every sport..the most money will be able to get the best team..specifik for F1 the most money will also be able to test & develop the most thus build the fastest car __________________ GA-7VRXP, AMD2000+, 256MB PC-2700 DDR, Radeon 8500LE, 2x Maxtor 740 (40GB) stripe set, AGNeovo X-150.