Where are all the patriots ?

Falstaff · Oct 14, 2004, 07:14 AM

I am a sailor and served in two wars, I am old enough to remember battleships and the FIrst Gulf War, Bierut, Mogadishu, etc. I have served in combat, shot and been shot at, I watched young men and women transformed by war, and I am currently deployed to a military base that is training young men and women to fight in IRAQ, but at the hospital I see the living legacy of war, amputees, pyschological casualties as well. WAR IS HELL. Argue about wars and the need for further violence but one remaining fact is whether you support, respect or endure the policy of the United States government to be globally involved in world affairs, my heart and my hand goes out to my family of men and women that have served. We are not all perfect, and we carry the burden of our resentments, our pride and our anger about why or what we did. But all of us still hold our hands over our hearts during the National Anthem, and we still believe in the American way. Patriots and patriotic people sustain the prinicipals of our nation, yet we are not all warriors. Whether we like it or not, anyone serving overseas, in combat or supporting our units volunteered for service, and must deal with the demons and issues that accompany that decision. Human beings cannot kill unless they are trained. If you can harnass the will to pull a triggor, unloadzordinance or launch it doesnt mean that you cannot support our troops. Our young men and women need to know or hear that their efforts are not in vain. If you believe in America, or your own country or just the concept of personal liberty, then you know a price must be paid for Freedom. Not everyone can be a warrior, not everyone can charge the breach in the line. Warrriors are made and not born, and we all must decide in our hearts what we believe in, regardless of what the governmnet tells us. I for one do not relish war, nor embrace it but it is a fact of life.
I dont get upset with M. Moore or any other American with a skewed sense of their own patriotism, because I believe that they feel they are patriots too in their own right. I you love American, love Freedom, and want to stick around long enough to enjoy the fruits of your labors then you have an investment to make in our country. But it doesnt mean you have to be a solider, sailor, marine or airman, but you have to be loyal to your country right or wrong. I tell youngsters not to take the easy way out and criticize our officials without reminding them that they are our country. Each one of us, who have sacrificed and endured know full well the terrible cost of Freedom. We have paid with our dearest blood for the ideals and our belief system.
I ask that anyone who has not served or is deeply critical of our military, look in the mirror and see what we all see when we pull the uniform off, wash our hands and stare into the inky black void of our souls through the iris of our eyes. Peer into the place where the young man or woman lives and survives everyday. Look deep within you and find the truth that you believe in, and own it. Find your voice within you and then say:
I BELIEVE THIS -
I LOVE THIS-
I RESPECT THIS-
I FEAR THIS MOST OF ALL-
I AM WILLING TO DIE FOR THIS-
I AM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN FOR THIS -
Being a christian I have given unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and I have never lost my own truth. I ask that whether you fight or not, remember, we all want our own truth and we want to believe. I just hope it is still that America is a great country and Americans are great people, but we are not the only people on this earth with a righteous conviction and a concept of right and wrong.
America is the number one country in the world in terms of freedom and lifestyle, but we are not the only one, it is just how i feel, right or wrong, and I would die defending the right of any loyal American to say he can think and feel anyway he wants to.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and I would like to believe that if we avoid conflict we can prosper and grow, but it just isnt so, if anyone believes in Freedom and is willing to sacrifice to preserve it then you have my blessing and my respect. But if you choose not to believe in what I think, that is fine as well, you still have my respect. And if you spit on America, and want to change your citizenship and live somewhere else then you have that right as well. America isnt perfect and neither are our brothers and sisters in arms. ...but please...give them respect and courtesy or let them be, they have earned mine, even if I dont agree with them..

vince3425 · Oct 14, 2004, 07:22 AM

i don't give a flying fuck about rank if you insult my family. you will burn and i'm giving you ever chance to avenge your threat. take your mac flight, MCAS MIRAMAR. ASK FOR LCpl SCOTT.

GutterPunk · Oct 14, 2004, 07:27 AM

All you can do is talk shit about my family, and you use racial slurs.

Is that all you got, racial slurs and talking about my family. You cant even defend your point anymore because i beat it to death with rebuttle, which you don't seem to comment on. The greatest thing about America is how we have CHOICE, I can choose to go into the military, I can choose to go to college, I can choose to drop out and make nothing of myself. I have freedom, something i respect and gained from war. America is about following your dream. My dream was to go to college, graduate get a good job and have a nice family. A military career was in mind, but I decided not to do it after I looked at the big picture, what i could have here and there. We respect you, support you in other ways (ways of funds), you should respect us and your fellow servicemen (Vince).

Stryder7 · Oct 14, 2004, 07:27 AM

** fallang_jeff

I agree with you in principle.

But I still hold to my original post.

We have young men and women serving, that cant even get out of the service when they have fulfilled their duty. Even when they have served their nation in the greatest and most selfless way possible.

And why cant they get out at the end of their tour. Because TOO many punks back here, bang the drums of war, when they themselves are unwilling to stand up and fight for this country.

It is not those that oppose the war, I have a problem with. It is not those that are disabled I disagree with.

It is those that support this war, say it needs to be fought, and are healthy and able bodied, but have more important things to do than to fight for what they say they believe in.

As far as the anger here.

It was vince and gutters suggestion that I leave this country and go to canada that got me pissed off. But that seems to be the status quo for good little republicans. They get to decide when we fight, who we fight, and who gets to speak about it.

But ask them to ante up, and "Oh no, that is strictly forbidden"

But then again, this attitude comes up all of the time when you challlenge them to stand up for what they SAY they believe.

vince3425 · Oct 14, 2004, 07:31 AM

how is it that i'm not anteing up? i'm a serving right now, i am supporting Aviation squadrons right now that are spending their time in Iraq and in afghanistan. believe me motherfucker, if they ask me to go, i'm on the next flight to that hell hole.

Stryder7 · Oct 14, 2004, 07:33 AM

I got this for you gutter.

YOU AND VINCE, are both lying little coward punks.

You claim you believe in this war, but wont fight it.

You claim that you support the troops, but then you attacked me for exercising my free speech, when I earned it for myself.

But thank you, and vince, for letting all of the other people here, see what cowards you little right winged hypocrits you are.

Oh, BTW Vince, the phone number you sent me was bogus. But I am going to check in the morning to see if there is a Lance Cpl Scott stationed at San Diego, if so, keep an eye out, you may get a chance to defend your position faceto face. But since you have lied about so much, I really dont expect that you are in the service.

GutterPunk · Oct 14, 2004, 07:34 AM

Military is a career like any other career, there a risks, benefits, opprotunity. I just don't see what your problem is when people choose another career, and support a politcal position. Open your mind up and look at the big picture. you are lost, lost in your ignorance, and selfishness.

Stryder7 · Oct 14, 2004, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vince3425

how is it that i'm not anteing up? i'm a serving right now, i am supporting Aviation squadrons right now that are spending their time in Iraq and in afghanistan. believe me motherfucker, if they ask me to go, i'm on the next flight to that hell hole.

Caught you in another lie.

If you wanted to go, it would take 10 minutes to do the paper work.

They are processing any and all request for frontline duty in just a few minutes.

All it takes is the guts to ask for the transfer. And if you were in the Marines, you would know that.

Falstaff · Oct 14, 2004, 07:37 AM

Quote:

You talk big shit Gutter Trash, just like this Iraqi war.

But like I said, when it comes down to "Standing Up" for what you say you believe in, your way short on guts.

See, I know why you dont serve.

You are disabled. A pigmentation disorder.

now now.....
courage is standing up for what you believe in whether you think it is right or wrong. Gutterpunk is no coward, just a young kid with dreams and ambition and he has seen young men and women in uniform and he believes in the American way. You dont have to serve to serve in you know what I mean. I wish that all kids his age never have to carry a weapon and defend or attack anyone else for the purpose of defending our freedoms or eliminating threats to freedom or our way of life, but it just isnt so. I wish only a few of us would ever have to serve to protect what is ours, what is right, and what is free, but that is the great dicotomy...we just hope and pray that our children never have to fight to maintain their freedom and way of life we all enjoy, but I for one can say that I am no stranger to sacrifice, and eventually we all must pay for our freedom.

vince3425 · Oct 14, 2004, 07:37 AM

try picking up a fucking phone and dialing bitch. you are just scared. Do it, i will more than welcome you to come down to sunny san diego and check up on the status of a LCpl Scott. and the front line orders, maybe thats just in the army, i am in aviation unit douche. you cant just ask to get sent to the front lines and be a grunt. if thats the way they do it in the army, thats probably why your fucking idiot brothers are dying. no training. now buck up or shut the fuck up. dial the phone number

vince3425 · Oct 14, 2004, 07:41 AM

** Fallang_jeff

i agree. i wish that there was no war. but since this is an unperfect world and there are wars, i do my duty by vollunteering for service. even though not all service members are in iraq, every one of them still plays a part in supporting them. they might cook or clean or wash clothes. that is still necessary for us to continue. i would like to go to iraq and serve, but right now, i know i'm supporting units in iraq and afghanistan that are over there kicking some ass.

Stryder7 · Oct 14, 2004, 07:42 AM

Gutter

You can RATIONALIZE any way you want to.

If you believe that this country is in danger, and if you have any guts at all, you should stand up for your country.

You can tell yourself what a patriotic American you are. But I say that you, and people like you, just add to the danger America faces.

You make all the excuses you want to.

I have only read a few of your other post, but I know that you support this war.

But I also know that you are too chickenshit to stand up for it.

BTW, I dont mind at all standing up for those that cant fight for themselves. If they oppose this war for philisophical, moral, or any other reasons. Even if they are just afraid and willling to admit it.

But the difference is, you say that this war should be fought, just so long as it isnt your butt on the line. What a coward, and a traitor you are.

vince3425 · Oct 14, 2004, 07:43 AM

and since you aren't a Marine, you're a gutless peice of shit. you have no idea how my branch of the service works. go back to the cesspool you call your life

Stryder7 · Oct 14, 2004, 07:47 AM

Here we go

***vince said" i am in aviation unit douche. you cant just ask to get sent to the front lines and be a grunt."

That is a lie. Flat out.

All marines are riflemen first. Remember that from Boot Camp vince. Oh, thats right, you arent really in the marines.

And I can tell you this. If you requested a transfer to a "Grunt" unit, you could get it. But you havent tried. You havent tried cause you arent even in the military.

And "IF" you are, it is real easy to serve from a safe place way back in the states. Or even if you were shipped out, from somewhere 300 miles from any possible fighting.

Either way, you dont face any REAL danger do you ?

Whether you are in or not ? as gutter put it.

Dom · Oct 14, 2004, 07:50 AM

Okay, this has just gone too far. If there are any limitations to the Flame Warzone, it's threatening to physically harm someone. I am not taking any sides here, but this thread is closed.

You are both military men and respect authority. I don't wanna see another thread like this between you two, or anyone for that matter, again.

Be adult about this and move on - else I'll ban you both.

Oct 14, 2004, 07:14 AM	#31
Falstaff Old Codger Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: USAFA Posts: 19,048 Rep Power: 207	I am a sailor and served in two wars, I am old enough to remember battleships and the FIrst Gulf War, Bierut, Mogadishu, etc. I have served in combat, shot and been shot at, I watched young men and women transformed by war, and I am currently deployed to a military base that is training young men and women to fight in IRAQ, but at the hospital I see the living legacy of war, amputees, pyschological casualties as well. WAR IS HELL. Argue about wars and the need for further violence but one remaining fact is whether you support, respect or endure the policy of the United States government to be globally involved in world affairs, my heart and my hand goes out to my family of men and women that have served. We are not all perfect, and we carry the burden of our resentments, our pride and our anger about why or what we did. But all of us still hold our hands over our hearts during the National Anthem, and we still believe in the American way. Patriots and patriotic people sustain the prinicipals of our nation, yet we are not all warriors. Whether we like it or not, anyone serving overseas, in combat or supporting our units volunteered for service, and must deal with the demons and issues that accompany that decision. Human beings cannot kill unless they are trained. If you can harnass the will to pull a triggor, unloadzordinance or launch it doesnt mean that you cannot support our troops. Our young men and women need to know or hear that their efforts are not in vain. If you believe in America, or your own country or just the concept of personal liberty, then you know a price must be paid for Freedom. Not everyone can be a warrior, not everyone can charge the breach in the line. Warrriors are made and not born, and we all must decide in our hearts what we believe in, regardless of what the governmnet tells us. I for one do not relish war, nor embrace it but it is a fact of life. I dont get upset with M. Moore or any other American with a skewed sense of their own patriotism, because I believe that they feel they are patriots too in their own right. I you love American, love Freedom, and want to stick around long enough to enjoy the fruits of your labors then you have an investment to make in our country. But it doesnt mean you have to be a solider, sailor, marine or airman, but you have to be loyal to your country right or wrong. I tell youngsters not to take the easy way out and criticize our officials without reminding them that they are our country. Each one of us, who have sacrificed and endured know full well the terrible cost of Freedom. We have paid with our dearest blood for the ideals and our belief system. I ask that anyone who has not served or is deeply critical of our military, look in the mirror and see what we all see when we pull the uniform off, wash our hands and stare into the inky black void of our souls through the iris of our eyes. Peer into the place where the young man or woman lives and survives everyday. Look deep within you and find the truth that you believe in, and own it. Find your voice within you and then say: I BELIEVE THIS - I LOVE THIS- I RESPECT THIS- I FEAR THIS MOST OF ALL- I AM WILLING TO DIE FOR THIS- I AM PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN FOR THIS - Being a christian I have given unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and I have never lost my own truth. I ask that whether you fight or not, remember, we all want our own truth and we want to believe. I just hope it is still that America is a great country and Americans are great people, but we are not the only people on this earth with a righteous conviction and a concept of right and wrong. America is the number one country in the world in terms of freedom and lifestyle, but we are not the only one, it is just how i feel, right or wrong, and I would die defending the right of any loyal American to say he can think and feel anyway he wants to. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, and I would like to believe that if we avoid conflict we can prosper and grow, but it just isnt so, if anyone believes in Freedom and is willing to sacrifice to preserve it then you have my blessing and my respect. But if you choose not to believe in what I think, that is fine as well, you still have my respect. And if you spit on America, and want to change your citizenship and live somewhere else then you have that right as well. America isnt perfect and neither are our brothers and sisters in arms. ...but please...give them respect and courtesy or let them be, they have earned mine, even if I dont agree with them.. __________________ "Inspiration is always a surprising visitor."

Oct 14, 2004, 07:22 AM	#32
vince3425 DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Nebraska Posts: 150 Rep Power: 0	i don't give a flying fuck about rank if you insult my family. you will burn and i'm giving you ever chance to avenge your threat. take your mac flight, MCAS MIRAMAR. ASK FOR LCpl SCOTT. __________________ When it Absolutely, Positivly has to be destroyed over night. USMC LCpl Scott

Oct 14, 2004, 07:27 AM	#33
GutterPunk I = Greatest Dood Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Nebraska Posts: 5,949 Rep Power: 71	All you can do is talk shit about my family, and you use racial slurs. Is that all you got, racial slurs and talking about my family. You cant even defend your point anymore because i beat it to death with rebuttle, which you don't seem to comment on. The greatest thing about America is how we have CHOICE, I can choose to go into the military, I can choose to go to college, I can choose to drop out and make nothing of myself. I have freedom, something i respect and gained from war. America is about following your dream. My dream was to go to college, graduate get a good job and have a nice family. A military career was in mind, but I decided not to do it after I looked at the big picture, what i could have here and there. We respect you, support you in other ways (ways of funds), you should respect us and your fellow servicemen (Vince). __________________ Rock On \m/ Thank you Mousey for the Sig! --------------- Intel Core2Duo E6660 (3.4GHZ) ~ Tuniq Tower 120 ~ Enermax Galaxy 1000W ~ Corsair Dominator @ 1090MHZ 5-5-5-15 (OCZ XTC Modded Cooler)~ EVGA 8800GTX W/ HR-03 Plus 120MM ~ Asus DVD-RW LiteScribe ~ LG DVD-RW ~ Corsair Voyager 2GB ReadyBoost Drive ~ Vantec Nexus Fan Controller ~ ThermalTake Armor 25CM fan ~ Personal Finance Blog: Dent Your Debt

Oct 14, 2004, 07:31 AM	#35
vince3425 DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Nebraska Posts: 150 Rep Power: 0	how is it that i'm not anteing up? i'm a serving right now, i am supporting Aviation squadrons right now that are spending their time in Iraq and in afghanistan. believe me motherfucker, if they ask me to go, i'm on the next flight to that hell hole. __________________ When it Absolutely, Positivly has to be destroyed over night. USMC LCpl Scott

Oct 14, 2004, 07:34 AM	#37
GutterPunk I = Greatest Dood Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Nebraska Posts: 5,949 Rep Power: 71	Military is a career like any other career, there a risks, benefits, opprotunity. I just don't see what your problem is when people choose another career, and support a politcal position. Open your mind up and look at the big picture. you are lost, lost in your ignorance, and selfishness. __________________ Rock On \m/ Thank you Mousey for the Sig! --------------- Intel Core2Duo E6660 (3.4GHZ) ~ Tuniq Tower 120 ~ Enermax Galaxy 1000W ~ Corsair Dominator @ 1090MHZ 5-5-5-15 (OCZ XTC Modded Cooler)~ EVGA 8800GTX W/ HR-03 Plus 120MM ~ Asus DVD-RW LiteScribe ~ LG DVD-RW ~ Corsair Voyager 2GB ReadyBoost Drive ~ Vantec Nexus Fan Controller ~ ThermalTake Armor 25CM fan ~ Personal Finance Blog: Dent Your Debt

Oct 14, 2004, 07:27 AM	Thread Starter #34
Stryder7 DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 18 Rep Power: 0	** fallang_jeff I agree with you in principle. But I still hold to my original post. We have young men and women serving, that cant even get out of the service when they have fulfilled their duty. Even when they have served their nation in the greatest and most selfless way possible. And why cant they get out at the end of their tour. Because TOO many punks back here, bang the drums of war, when they themselves are unwilling to stand up and fight for this country. It is not those that oppose the war, I have a problem with. It is not those that are disabled I disagree with. It is those that support this war, say it needs to be fought, and are healthy and able bodied, but have more important things to do than to fight for what they say they believe in. As far as the anger here. It was vince and gutters suggestion that I leave this country and go to canada that got me pissed off. But that seems to be the status quo for good little republicans. They get to decide when we fight, who we fight, and who gets to speak about it. But ask them to ante up, and "Oh no, that is strictly forbidden" But then again, this attitude comes up all of the time when you challlenge them to stand up for what they SAY they believe.

Oct 14, 2004, 07:33 AM	Thread Starter #36
Stryder7 DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 18 Rep Power: 0	I got this for you gutter. YOU AND VINCE, are both lying little coward punks. You claim you believe in this war, but wont fight it. You claim that you support the troops, but then you attacked me for exercising my free speech, when I earned it for myself. But thank you, and vince, for letting all of the other people here, see what cowards you little right winged hypocrits you are. Oh, BTW Vince, the phone number you sent me was bogus. But I am going to check in the morning to see if there is a Lance Cpl Scott stationed at San Diego, if so, keep an eye out, you may get a chance to defend your position faceto face. But since you have lied about so much, I really dont expect that you are in the service.

Oct 14, 2004, 07:37 AM	#40
vince3425 DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Nebraska Posts: 150 Rep Power: 0	try picking up a fucking phone and dialing bitch. you are just scared. Do it, i will more than welcome you to come down to sunny san diego and check up on the status of a LCpl Scott. and the front line orders, maybe thats just in the army, i am in aviation unit douche. you cant just ask to get sent to the front lines and be a grunt. if thats the way they do it in the army, thats probably why your fucking idiot brothers are dying. no training. now buck up or shut the fuck up. dial the phone number __________________ When it Absolutely, Positivly has to be destroyed over night. USMC LCpl Scott

Oct 14, 2004, 07:41 AM	#41
vince3425 DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Nebraska Posts: 150 Rep Power: 0	** Fallang_jeff i agree. i wish that there was no war. but since this is an unperfect world and there are wars, i do my duty by vollunteering for service. even though not all service members are in iraq, every one of them still plays a part in supporting them. they might cook or clean or wash clothes. that is still necessary for us to continue. i would like to go to iraq and serve, but right now, i know i'm supporting units in iraq and afghanistan that are over there kicking some ass. __________________ When it Absolutely, Positivly has to be destroyed over night. USMC LCpl Scott

Oct 14, 2004, 07:42 AM	Thread Starter #42
Stryder7 DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 18 Rep Power: 0	Gutter You can RATIONALIZE any way you want to. If you believe that this country is in danger, and if you have any guts at all, you should stand up for your country. You can tell yourself what a patriotic American you are. But I say that you, and people like you, just add to the danger America faces. You make all the excuses you want to. I have only read a few of your other post, but I know that you support this war. But I also know that you are too chickenshit to stand up for it. BTW, I dont mind at all standing up for those that cant fight for themselves. If they oppose this war for philisophical, moral, or any other reasons. Even if they are just afraid and willling to admit it. But the difference is, you say that this war should be fought, just so long as it isnt your butt on the line. What a coward, and a traitor you are.

Oct 14, 2004, 07:43 AM	#43
vince3425 DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Nebraska Posts: 150 Rep Power: 0	and since you aren't a Marine, you're a gutless peice of shit. you have no idea how my branch of the service works. go back to the cesspool you call your life __________________ When it Absolutely, Positivly has to be destroyed over night. USMC LCpl Scott

Oct 14, 2004, 07:47 AM	Thread Starter #44
Stryder7 DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Oct 2004 Posts: 18 Rep Power: 0	Here we go ***vince said" i am in aviation unit douche. you cant just ask to get sent to the front lines and be a grunt." That is a lie. Flat out. All marines are riflemen first. Remember that from Boot Camp vince. Oh, thats right, you arent really in the marines. And I can tell you this. If you requested a transfer to a "Grunt" unit, you could get it. But you havent tried. You havent tried cause you arent even in the military. And "IF" you are, it is real easy to serve from a safe place way back in the states. Or even if you were shipped out, from somewhere 300 miles from any possible fighting. Either way, you dont face any REAL danger do you ? Whether you are in or not ? as gutter put it.

Oct 14, 2004, 07:50 AM	#45
Dom DriverHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 12,940 Rep Power: 0	Okay, this has just gone too far. If there are any limitations to the Flame Warzone, it's threatening to physically harm someone. I am not taking any sides here, but this thread is closed. You are both military men and respect authority. I don't wanna see another thread like this between you two, or anyone for that matter, again. Be adult about this and move on - else I'll ban you both.