johnmedgla

In my profession it's perhaps preferable to be a well rounded, cheery genial person - unfortunately I've come to the conclusion I'm an utter misanthrope. I'm far from certain, it's been creeping up on me for a time, but I think this forum tipped me over the edge.

Why, I ask, are some 99% of all the people in this world utter inconsequences? Too stupid, too ignorant, too ugly or too damn boring to be worth a jot? Lord, the most hilarious thing I've ever seen is the sheer stupidity of nigh on Everyone here who claims to be Right Wing in politics. I am Right Wing, an active member in the oldest surviving Right Wing political party in the democratic world, and also Gay and Jewish. Unfortunately, those possessed of a brain smaller than the transitors in my shiny new AMD processor seem to consider this a dichotomy.

Allow me to educate you, who suppose yourselves to follow the right. I - I hesiatate to say we since you do not yet understand the elegance of the conservative viewpoint - have two guiding principles.

1) Moral propriety. This is what seems to give you all such trouble, but it's really something of an aside to right wing politics. In fundament, those on the actual political right hold that individuals and personal property should be protected from all malicious influences. The right is historically and correctly associated with the persuit of personal freedoms, in which respect it is fundamentally more libertarian than the left. The right is only in recent history and then only really in America, where issues matter less than endorsements, affiliated with religion. Right wing politics seeks consensus based upon shared goals and mutual loyalties - not for nothing have most of the Jingo episodes in history come from a Right Wing country.

The right never attempted to identify a moral code to which all could subscribe. but it believe a strong moral backbone was key to the survival of the state. This, and let me be totally unequivocal, has absolutely totally and utterly nothing to do with any question of sleeping partner, religion, experience of abortion or even drug taking (most of Victorian London were Opium addicts, and it certainly wasn't that which killed off the British Empire). Right wing morality is concerned with a greater allegiance to country, to an ethos of helping when one can, and a desire to improve the world around while holding onto the aspects of our societiies which have made us succesful and continue to make us unique.

Deriving a collection of prejudices from selective reading of Holy texts and poorly undestood science then cobbling the whole lot into something posing as a moral code is beyond doubt one of the most imbecilic traits I have ever encountered. You twits don't have a morality, you have Dogma - nothing more.

2) The true fundament of Right Wing politics. Oddly enough, despite being the crux of right wing ideology I'm not going to give it much time. Likely because I doubt most of you would understand a crash course in economics.

The right believes in economic conservatism and the natural progression of the free market. Social justice, affirmative action, positive discrimination and even third world debt are considered unhelpful (depending upon how completely you subscribe to the ideology) as they interfere with the natural efficiency of market dynamics, and skew the resulting distribution of wealth.

Ideally, the free market should see wealth distributed in relation to contribution. The value of your contribution is judged by society, and market forces ensure you receive the appropriate rewards. Of course, with under-developed countries the situation becomes more complex, but I weary of this and I think my "Right Wing in a Nutshell" is quite long enough.

Feel free to dissect my little exordium (I'm sure there'll be more you see).

Additionally, I mean no personal offence, but it's twenty past four in the morning here and fate has conspired to keep me away from bed, so I'm in a rather venemous mood. Finally, thankyou to the (largely liberal) population of these boards who contribute the meaningful points as opposed to those who just fill their posts with bile.

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Senor_Mota

You're just upset because too many people disagree with being a homosexual. That's too bad! All the vocabulary and exuberant dictation in the world won't fix that.

You know, maybe the reason why there's so much discontent and hatred here on God's grey Earth is because everyone's too busy getting or being offended. Here's a couple examples:

1. Will the African-American community ever SHUT THE FUCK UP about things that happened two-hundred years ago(i.e. Slavery)?

2. Will the Caucasian majority of the American population ever stop dissenting those of the Muslim faith in general as "Towel-Heads" and "Terrorists", even though they may clearly be a Natural-Born American citizen?

3. Will the Jewish people ever let the world forget what Hitler did?

Those are a few obvious ones, but look at those whose voice has been silenced - The Native American culture in almost every United States city, town, etc, etc. has been whittled down to very little to none. We originally conquered the Americas from them. We never apologized. They accepted their fate. They don't keep appearing on Television, movies and mass media in general reminding every single fucking person in the world over and over again about "what the White man did to them". You know why? They're a humble and resourceful people, and peace is more important to them than the money that "the White Man" or any persecutor in general can line their pockets with. It's the same thing with homosexuals. I don't need to know what your sexual orientation is. I don't want to know. You don't need to broadcast this fact.

You, personally, stated your sexual orientation. This did not incline myself any further to type a retort to your post greater than if you would not have stated your sexual preference. I don't fucking care if you like it in the ass. I really don't. So don't tell me, and don't keep reminding me. If I wanted to know, I'd ask.

I understand that people do what they want, but that means I can feel any way I damn well please. Equal rights aren't special rights, so if someone disagrees with your personal opinion, it sure as hell doesn't congeal a hate crime case for you, buddy.

Learn to live with people hating you, disagreeing with you, offending you. Because everyone has to. You can't call someone closed-minded for initially expressing their opinion - most people won't even go that far!

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Dom

Actually, although blacks were officially "freed" in the 1860s, they were not fully thought of as equals (according to law) until the 1960s, and even today still face many recial biases towards them.

Senor_Mota

Yeah...but nowadays, if they feel "discriminated against", all it takes is one little lawsuit to make up the difference.

Yes, they've felt quite the persecution - but so has every ethnicity in one way or another. I'm not trying to condone persecution of any specific race/gender/sexual orientation, only the fact that Racism/Bigotry is not black or white. People are only offended if they let themselves be.

Good point though.

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johnmedgla

Life has shown me that in general I can reduce people of either sex or any age to incoherent wrecks - given a live discussion and (at times) an audience. In politics (with which I am involved) it's considered a strength. I have no interest in homogenising society, diversity is a good thing. My problem is with intolerant twits. They are the one and only group I myself cannot abide. I wouldn't even mind if they stated valid reasons or arguments, constructive criticism is usually productive. Unfortunately:

I don't think it's likely to come from someone who can't even launch a well worded attack on someone's "exuberant" language.

I've often wondered what people mean by that - most of the seventeen year olds I know would have a hard time with langauge exercises from 50 or 60 years ago, and I have no inclination to apologise for being good with words. Language, well learned, is both a weapon and a bitch...

Oh and as a closing aside, if I were ever so immature as to give more than a second of my time to considering your so-called opinions when I walked away from this terminal, then yes I probably could be called upset at "so many people disagree with being a homosexual" (tsk, grammar). Unfortunately for your good self the list of people whose opinions could conceivably upset me runs to:

1) My Parents
2) My Partner
3) Some close friends
4) Anyone I could possibly respect under any circumstance
5) Anyone more intelligent than myself
6) Anyone with something useful to say who doesn't live in an insular little world.

Unfortunately the people here who disapprove of me for being gay don't seem to figure!
Oh well, C'est la vie!

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Captn

When did you realize that you were gay? Im not trying to poke fun of you, Im just curious is all.

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pr0digal jenius

You have missed out on the point here completely and taken the typical "hateful caucasian" stance.

It's not you hate, you just like pegging it off that easily, you hate the freeloading, lawsuit minded urban lifestyle that happens to at the moment be a slightly african-american majority.

I can find you plenty fo black people who work harder then you or I, I assure you, just like I could easily find you a white, asian, muslim, or purple guy to fit you're "black" stereotype.

pr0digal jenius

Conversely, obfuscation of the masses never achieved much, as it's hard to lead the perplexed


"Obfuscation leads to vexation" seems to be the normal course of action as near as I can tell.

Falstaff

my god.....no flaming going on here folks.....lets just move along......thats right....nothing to see here....

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The_Neon_Cowboy

Actaully anymore companyies give them prefereantual treatment afraid to disipline them in many cases or even fire them. Afraid that they might sue or say that is was becouse of thier color. Even though if the same man where white he would be written up or fired in a heart beat...

many schools / collages whites and others have to work hard to even get the chance to get in and some minorites have almost a free pass just becouse of thier race!

Long as people dwell on the past we will never move forward

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crlorentzen

I very much like and admire johnmedgla's original post, and some of the comments that followed including the majority of Senor Mota's initial response. Both seem to have good well thought out comments.

However the definition used for Right Wing Politics is correct it is not the common usage of the term at this point in time, just an observation. I myself am mostly aligned with the older definition of right wing that has been stated here.

Agree completely.

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Dom

Let's not forget that it used to be the other way around. Blacks used to be slaves and had no rights, and no matter what they did, no matter how smart they were; they couldn't get jobs that white's got. If it seems unfair now, it is because it was unfair back then, it's called restitution.

crlorentzen

Does that mean that to make it fair whites have to be, to take it far, enslaved for the same number of years? Then we can stop with this?

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Dom

The point is that whites did a lot of things to blacks, beyond unfair employment, considering that, Affirmative Action is little restitution. I personally am white, but if my people were taken on ships to be enslaved like animals, whipped, beaten, raped, tortured, lynched, and burned; I'd want restitution.

Just because slavery was ended on paper 140 years ago doesn't mean it ended completely, or that the oppression just suddenly stopped. Racism doesn't just go away. America was still partially segregated 50 years ago. People act as if this happened hundreds of years ago - it didn't. The memories and emotional scars are still fresh.

Look at the statistics, blacks are more likely to go to prison, and to be poor. Whites have it a lot better in comparison, if you look at it, they deserve a little help to get a desent job and have a life. Affirmative Action is an attempt to overcome the racial bias that still exists in America, in great numbers - but I doubt it helps much. Just because it remains unseen does not mean racism doesn't exist.

Slaves played a major part in making American what it is today, and at the same time they were and still are denied the fruits of their labor. People don't forget easily, and although I think we should move on from the past, it just ain't gonna happen yet.

Captn

So for the next, say, 3,000 years we have to pay restitution? When is enough enough? I owe black people nothing, Im not prejudice or racists I have several black friends and they feel the same way I do. Affirmative Action........ is nothing more then the commies at the ACLU trying to ruin this country. Theres plenty of successful black people in the world today, I can list hundreds off the top of my head. So as far as blacks being oppressed today, thats nothing more then a big lie.

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Dom

You may not owe blacks anything. You may not be a racist.

If you can name hundreds of successful blacks, I can name tens-of-thousands of successful white. It's not about the successful, it's about the rest.

If you're really concerned about the nation being ruined, you should be concerned about the way the societie's going.

Whites make up about 75% of the US, blacks about 12%. Yet blacks out number whites 2:1 in unemployment and poverty, and about 4:1 in incarceration. If society was really equal, blacks would not occuply the largest percenatge of overall unsuccessful lives, especially since there are less of them.

Either the smaller percentage of the population is more violent and lazy, or there's a bigger picture.

Captn

Can you provide the site where you got these stats from?

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Dom

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/
http://www.census.gov/

johnmedgla

I've been sleeping for a few days after my mega-shift, so I thought I'd answer a question someone put to me a while back. I never really had a moment where I realised I was gay, I don't think many people do, and I've never thought it helpful to talk of such things. I was consciously aware as I got older (I mean from about 9 to 13) that my male friends were pairing off with girls, which seemed fair enough. The worrying thing (and at 11, back when the UK had the joy of Section 28 (or section 2A in Scotland, where I live) it was simply not discussed) for me was that I was more interested in the male friends of the girls who asked me to the cinema or to parties than the girls themselves.

I never had some pervy moment of revelation in the shower room at PE, and I was very fortunate in being popular at secondary school. I knew exactly what I was by the age of 15, and made an announcement in the Prefect's common room at school. One or two people made murderous comments, but they ended up being hounded much more than myself. Ho hum, such is life!

And I agree entirely with the dangers of obfuscation, but who am I to argue with Cardinal de Retz:
[color=black][/color]
"Nothing sways the stupid more than arguments they can't understand"

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Senor_Mota

That's what I'm saying. Dom, you can make all the vaild points you'd like to, but it still doesn't change the fact that if people would just let sh!t go, nothing would be as complicated, and there sure as hell wouldn't be so much discontent and resentment. I appreciate other people's views, but mine's the most appreciated. You catch my drift?

Let people be ignorant. But if an individual states his/her mind clearly and in a positive manner, give them a chance to speak. If you don't, you're just afraid they'll "show you up" or something ridiculous like that. You got to rise above to reach a higher level.

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Dom

People will move on, but they won't forget. America remembers 9/11, the Jews remember the Holocaust, and blacks remember slavery. They are important parts of history, and important lessons.

pr0digal jenius

True, but nobody remembers one day from the next in places like Bosnia or any of those other rebel/military devastatded countries...We're dwelling to much on minor things.

America's unemployment in miniscule on a global scale, regardless of who is employed more.

And not to be offensive in anyway, but before the blacks can ever become a minority in the unemployment lines, they are going to have to become a minority in the public school drop out rolls too.

Senor_Mota

Well said. True, a stereotype has been given to the black male for being criminals and unemployed, but when your behaviors support the reasoning behind the stereotype, it's kind of hard for people not to think that. Black "culture" and music in America promotes violence, thievery, promiscous sex, and an all-around disregard for the white race in general. How are we supposed to accept this as a fallacy when it's openly supported by the accused? Black people call each other "nigga"...but when it's used as "nigger", it's completely unacceptable. It seems to me that the whole "discrimination and racism" thing is a double standard to the African-American. They can dish it out, but they can't take it.

Don't get me wrong, anyone can be a bigot. But anyone can be a hypocrite as well.

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Dom

I hardly think that the stereotypes given to black people are true, or that they act similar to it. To assume that 23,000,000 American people are criminals and unemployed just because of their race is ridiculous. However, they are poorer and more likely to goto prison, percentage wise versus whites, which is strange. Usually the race/population with the most people (in this case white people) would possess the highest percentages in both wealth and poverty, as compared to other races, or, at least be equal, but this is not true in America. How is it that whites are more successful as compared to blacks, and other races with in America, while blacks are the opposite? To say they are this way because the stereotypes are true is wrong.Don't confuse culture and music, music is a form of expression, and if you look at most music, it is used to express things about what a person has been through, not how a person whishes to live.

If any form of music is associated with blacks; it's rap, and it is no coincidence that these rappers grew up in ghettos, and have seen nothing but violence, and were forced to steal as a way to put food on the table. As for promiscuity, whites are just as promiscuous. Look at the music associated with white people; rock. Rock is notorious for having groupies, but I personally don't believe stereotypes.The word "nigga" and its usage is completely different from the word "nigger", although most dictionaries consider it the same. The word nigga was devised from the word nigger as a form of defiance. The word is used much like the word "dude" is used. "What's up, dude?" "What's up, nigga?" There is no difference.

Geminiwave

it happened too recently man. There are still people ALIVE that got abused by the nazis. Its like telling someone to forget that they got raped because it happened 40 years ago. It doesnt matter...it still profoundly affects them. And it'll affect their offsping.

Also, you dont see them forcing it in peoples faces...and going up to germans and spitting in their faces and demanding compensation for what "their people" did to the jews(even though the person's family has been in america for countless generations and has absolutely no ties to germany)

Seriously. Dont knock the jews for remembering the holocost. They dont, as a rule, drag it out and rub it in german's faces.

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crlorentzen

Everyone should remember atrocities that are committed so that they do not repeat them. But remembering and actively seeking retribution are two different things. Whenever people are treated differently due to race, religion, creed, or bubblegum flavor that is wrong. And in many cases blacks seem to be treated with a softer hand in the corporate environment as well as entrance to educational institutions.

This is not to say that all people are, nor that all do or do not not what they get (good and/or bad). I personally have two or three friends from my high school who are black and work equally hard as me and they recieve the same respect and praise for their accomplishments.

I am also not naive there still is racism occurring, but there is also reverse racism, as it is sometimes refferred to, meaning not against the minority but for the minority and agaisn the majority.

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The_Neon_Cowboy

Thier not moveing on.. their dwelling on the past, thats the problem...

9/11 happend just a few years ago... and masy people of all races and countries where killed

Slavory NOT IN OUR LIFETIME!

HOLOCOUST not in about 1/2 of our lifetimes 1st time we heard about it was on books and TV. Far differnmt between something you experiance your self... And, what was experianced by people that have long died and been barried experianced... stuff that happend far before we/they where even wearing dipers...

Stuff that happend to thier grand parents, great grand parents, great grand parents
is so far diffrent then whats happing to them...

If you dwell on the pas you will never move on and that what thier doing not all
but quite a few... So thier holding back progress...

For the sole purpose of saying "boo who" look at the history of my ansestors feel bad and pitty for me give. me specail eccpetions, treatment, money, opertunities I have not earned etc...

It's one thing to rember the past and to try and dwell on it for your personal beinfit...
Nothing is ever thier fault, it's some one else or all the "the man" keeping them down
people need to realise think like that gets you no where but where you are now. no progress what so ever.... I

If thier asestors where like that there would still be slaves today . Yes they may have to work a little harder to over come the biases or hate they can't really do anything about. Why wine about what can't be changed or fixed? or happened so far in the freaking past...

Thier efforts are far beeter spent on Concertate on now! today! tomarrow! imporveing things... things that will help.. better to build a future ... then dwell in the past

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Dom

It's not about slavery, it's about oppression, and I said this before. Slavery ended on paper in the 1860s, how long ago it actually ended I don't know. What you fail to understand is that just because a new law is passed, does not mean everyone will automatically obey it. There was little ability to govern laws so long ago, and higher ups in society didn't let their slaves go so easily either, don't kid yourself.You sure about that? Holocaust survivors are still around. The Jewish Holocaust only happened some 65 years ago, well within a normal human lifespan.

My great grandfather was a Holocaust survivor, and my mother passed his stories down to me. He was crippled by Nazi, used for experiments and tortured. I for one am not just going to forget an important part of my heritage just because you think it living in the past if I don't.Try parents and grand parents. In the 1960s oppression of blacks was still around. Blacks did not have equal rights in all states, there were schools, bathrooms, and diners for whites only.I find it hard to believe that blacks remembering their heritage holds back progress. It's impossible to hold progress back this way. If things are opening up for them, it's unstoppable, one cannot just stand in the way, or drag their feet to prevent something that is happening independently from them.

Don't forget; if you forget the past, you are doomed to relive it.That's just an ignorant statement.

To think that the claims by blacks of police misconduct, mistreatment and racism in this government are all unfounded, is arrogant.

I'm no saying that blacks are infallible, but to say "move on" to a people that have been through so much, and denied so much in the past by the government of the nation in which they live in is silly, people don't just up and do that. Perhaps they lack the trust to do so.Because it is unacceptable for their to be racism preventing equal opportunity employment in America's labor system. We have laws to prevent such things from happening, and yet they have been fairly ineffective. Maybe it's because racism exists in the government itself.Who says they're not moving on? I don't see marches or rallies going on. I don't see black people holding signs saying "remember slavery" or "remember what the whites did to us".

A major problem is that there's a big misconception in America; held by many Americans, that all adversity faced by blacks ended over one-hundred years ago; which couldn't be untruer. Some people act as if slavery ended 1,000 years ago, seriously, people act as if this is acient news, and blacks are all cry-babies milking the system. Another problem is the failure of people to understand that cultural healing takes time, irregardless of how long ago this happened, and it doesn't end with one person, nor one generation of people.

Read about the place you live in... America was not always "the land of the free". Such an idea is actually a fairly new one.

Falstaff

actually Frank, African Americans are seeking repirations from companies and properties that survived the post reconstruction in the South and in the North as well, and a redress of the military's treatment of African American servicemen and women. As far as the enslavement of African Americans today, I look to what Bill Cosby and Rev. Farakan have said as well Jesse Jackson, the only thing holding African Americans back is the racism that they too seek eliminate from our class rooms, jobs, and livingroom television sets...and of course...popular music, it perpetuates the African American stereotype.

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Captn

Thats what the ACLU has brainwashed everyone with.



They dont have to, Once again I blame the ACLU and the corrupt lawyers coming out of NYU. Liberalism makes everyone sick like the flu but only alot worse....


That's just an ignorant statement, So I guess Condoleeza Rice & Colin Powell are white? This is just part of the reason why I agree with the statement "Liberalism is a mental disorder"(Michael Savage).

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