ET3D

I know it's a loaded subject, but with news of developers moving to consoles I've read some discussion of it, and realised how they may be right.

People who play illegally copied games tend to voice the following arguments:
- I only use this to check out the game. If it's good I buy it.
- If games cost less I'd buy them.
- If games were less buggy / had lower hardware demands I'd buy them.

Let me concentrate on the first one. Tell me if you think my following analysis of a PC vs. console player of Assassin's Creed is right:

The "pirated game as demo" PC player would download a pirated version, play it for 15 hours, then say "it's too repetitive to finish, why should I buy it?"

A console player will buy the game, play it for 15 hours, then say "it's too repetitive to finish, but I enjoyed it for 15 hours, so that's not too bad for the money."

Do you think that's a correct assessment of the situation? Because if so, then all those "we're just testing the game" players really are making developers move to the consoles.

OmegaRED

I don't believe PC gamers will actually buy a game they've already pirated unless there is something they're missing out on such as multiplayer.

As for the developers who say they're going to consoles this is usually because they produced games which were too resource demanding and it limited their customer base (Supreme Commander and Crysis are good examples).

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kris23

theres the one last thing...... the "i love the game but am to lazy to go out and buy it after i DLed it" part.

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BlueMak

For me it is a fallacy because the VAST majority of the people that play pirated games, wouldn't buy them anyway, so it is not wasted losses.

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

kris23

i ALWAYS buy my games just cuz i love looking at the boxes and art stuff that comes in the collectors edition boxes.....

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IEMC

Video games are like movies: when you buy them your taking a huge chance because you don't know if you'll like it or not.

If all games had demos, despite the problem above, there will still be mass pirating. Why? Simply because it's easy to do, readily available, and there's usually no risk or concern for one's safety from being sued.

However, when consoles are the only thing left for video games (will never happen, but bear with me) there will still be a huge amount of pirating, just for consoles. It'll be just as easy as it is for computers as hackers / whatever you want to call them start getting better and better.

Let's break down those pirating reasons, too:

"- I only use this to check out the game. If it's good I buy it."

It's true, but then it's not. Most of the time, people download a game because it's recommended to them. However, even after this, it won't be purchased if it's liked, as the game is already either beaten, or simply because they already have it.

This, too.

- "If games cost less I'd buy them."

I'm gonna go ahead and say this is false. If you think about it, your paying 50 - 60 dollars ~10-20 hours of fun. I'd actually say that's a bargain when it comes to having fun / money being well spent. Compared to most things, it's significantly lower.


This goes back to the taking a risk thing, however. I personally don't like gambling, so why buy a game when you can pirate it for totally free, knowing there's almost no risk.

-" If games were less buggy / had lower hardware demands I'd buy them."

I agree with this 100% and stand behind it. I'm sick of games saying the minimum requirements, even though with that hardware, at the lowest settings, the game is crappy and still runs bad.

Not sure if this all answers your question, I just needed to go on a rant.

In the end, however, it comes back to taking a chance. All of the reviews / videos / screen shots in the world can be looked at, but it doesn't mean you're going to be satisfied with the money spent. And let's face it, 60 dollars for a game you might not like is a risk not everyone can take or afford.

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Al_Vampyre

From my own limited experience I have to say that I buy the games I know I want to play like all of the Total War series, Bioshock, Oblivion, The Witcher, Civ 4, Crysis (although now wish I hadn't - just had to spend £325 ($650) upgrading my PC to play Crysis!) Fallout 3 when it comes out.

Sometimes I'll download a game if I'm not sure about it - just to see what the hype is but generally those get installed I play them for a couple of hours then they get uninstalled and binned.

Basically I only buy games that I know I'm going to get my money's worth out of, so game publishers you can keep your paying customers and increase your bottom line by not spending money to release crapola, good releases get bought!

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"Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit; wisdom is knowing not to put it in a fruit salad" - Brian O'Driscoll - Ireland Rugby Team 2009 Grand Slam winning Captain.

Neshi

I will argue about the reason "I only use this to check out the game. If it's good I buy it", it does apply.
You're giving a rather black/white example. I won't deny I haven't downloaded games but they we're downloaded to try it out. And 15 hours to try it out isn't trying it out, that's just playing the game. After 2 or 3 hours you should know if you like a game or not.

For example, I 'tested' Titan Quest, liked it so much that I bought the game and expansion.
Then there was all that hype about that game Bioshock. I even bought a new videocard so i could try that game, downloaded it too and what was I glad I did that. After an hour or 2 I pressed uninstal.
I might be an exception, but don't go and generalize everybody and say that the " I only use this to check out the game. If it's good I buy it." isn't a good excuse.

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If one does not attach himself to people and desire, never shall his heart be broken. But then, does he ever truly live?

Life is just too damn short for if's and maybe's

chaitanyaraghav

In my country i find very few people who buy games because in our currency we get games at prices of 1500 to 2000 bucks which is way too high considered the pocket money that youngsters get..hence they download it or goto any shop where pirated games are available and buy it for a 90 or 100 bucks!

SO they get the game they want at a lot cheaper price and they wouldnt even think of buying an original game because they would be getting 15 odd games for 1500 bucks rather than just one game! Hence i feel that it all boils down to the prices of the games which are being sold.

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Nobody is perfect and I'm Nobody!

ET3D

Thanks. I'm happy to get your reply, because as I said in the original post, I was looking to get a confirmation of my assessment. It looks like "demo use" can be legitimate.

That said, your experience also shows that people who play pirated games as demos (I'm generalising again ) ignore the real demo channel. There was an official demo of the game but you went for the pirated version anyway.

It's funny that you think these two contradicting thoughts. On second thought, it makes some sense from a slightly different angle. The resource hungry games are typically games which have had a huge amount of money put into them, and so a console release, where people are more likely to buy the game in the first place, is a better return on investment.

But it's also technically easier to program for a console, which is a fixed hardware environment, and doesn't have the large performance variation of PC's. So it makes some sense to move to it.

Dark Lord

i only bought two games last year, Orange Box and Lord of the rings online. complete BS that ive gotta buy a game and then pay to play it, but thats a whole different argument.

i played a lot of games last year, and except for one, im glad i didnt spend a cent on any of them.

i hated bioshock, crysis, need for speed prostreet (couldnt even come close to playing that POS through) Jericho (absolutely god awful) and gears of war.

if i originally planned on buying any of those, it wouldnt have been till they hit the bargain bin, and then used a coupon on it. not exactly like the developers took a loss from me anyways.

the only game that i did wish i had actually bought was COD4. absolutely loved the game. ill probably pick it up once that hits the bargain bin.


now, before last year, i used to buy a ton of games. do you know what a common trend was amongst most new games? they all started to suck.
it got to the point were i could keep buying mounds of shit in hopes of a gem, or i could stop pissing my money away and wade through the shit for free and then buy the gems when i came across them.

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BlueMak

Weird, for me it feels like year after year games keep getting better. As long as you A)know what you like and B) know how to see through the marketing (including "reviews") shit, you are in for some great games each year.

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

Dark Lord

i dunno... it just seems like everything i play, it always seems like "hey i liked this game back when they called it...."
everything just seems to be a rehash of a game ive already played 10 other rehashes of.

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YAYitsAndrew

Whenever people talk about pirating stuff, I just repeat everything they say but replace the software with a car or a mattress. All of a sudden it's very clear that you are stealing and doing something illegal.

"Software costs too much, if it cost less I'd pay for it. Until then though, I'm going to pirate"
"Cars cost too much, if they cost less I'd pay for them. Until then though, I'm going to steal"

The car one is a point of view that makes no sense in our world. You instantly think the guy is morally defunct. Software is new though, and the equivalent statement involving software makes it a gray area.

The problem is, there's no tangible way to take software back. If you don't like your mattress, they can come into your house and take it from you during the first 30 days and everyone is happy. The second you open a box of software, you could copy all those ones and zeroes to your hard drive and do whatever you wanted to them. Any security measure in place can be circumvented, even activation. The mattress scenario equivalent is quite funny. Imagine the movers come into your house to take the mattress back and you lock them in the basement and don't tell anyone. Then you sleep peacefully on your mattress for the next ten years.

People steal software because there is no chance of getting caught and having to pay for your crime. No risk, but a great reward. There's no other reason. In a perfect world everyone would have everything they wanted in the best condition for no cost. Find me a person who doesn't want that and I'll tell you you just found someone who likes playing devil's advocate.

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"It is because the resistance to paying for copyrighted material, although often characterized as arising from a supposed technical burden or principled concern for the public interest, arises rather from exactly the same segment of the brain that is dominant in shoplifters."
- Mark Helprin, Digital Barbarism
In other words, it's never okay to steal even if you think you have a good reason!

www.yayitsandrew.com

YAYitsAndrew

It sounds like it's time for you to stop playing video games. Why would you play a single game if every one of them just leads to disappointment?

I'm in the same boat though. I steal cable because all the sitcoms and reality TV shows on the air are just like the other ones I watched ten years ago. I stopped going to movie theatres because I've seen all the movies; new ones just change the characters and use the same plot. I don't even brush my teeth anymore, because toothpaste has been the same for the past hundred years. Who cares about that whitening stuff, that's all just a gimmick to get you to buy the same toothpaste that's been around forever.

---

Every industry has genres. We like to classify, there are people who dedicate their entire lives to the taxonomy of a field. Just because you're able to identify two games in the same genre, it doesn't mean they are the same game. The details have it all. Metroid and Castlevania are both platformer games but I'm sure you could spend all afternoon talking about the differences between the two.

Part of growing as a game player is learning what kinds of games you like and being able to tell from previews, reviews, and word of mouth whether you'll like a game or not (to avoid disappointment). We've all bought our share of stinkers and still do while we learn what we do and do not like. The same thing could be said about drinking beer or wine, or trying every chinese restaurant in town. There is no justification for theft here.

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"It is because the resistance to paying for copyrighted material, although often characterized as arising from a supposed technical burden or principled concern for the public interest, arises rather from exactly the same segment of the brain that is dominant in shoplifters."
- Mark Helprin, Digital Barbarism
In other words, it's never okay to steal even if you think you have a good reason!

www.yayitsandrew.com

retard

i generally dont pay for games .. simple reason (and this is the god honest truth) is that the games cost 40-50 euros in a country where the ppl earn 150 euros a month.

Now imagine you having been payed 150$ at the end of the month going off and buying a 50$ game .. What about food ? What about paying the bills ? No ill better be honest and buy a game and not eat for a month so i can play it .. i mean this just doesent work.

Like that guy from India said about games costing 50$ in India is the equivalent 1500$ in the US that just isnt rite .. i wonder if any of you would pay 1500$ for a game or just download it for free.

Most of the pirating is done is countries that have a lower standard than that of the USA or EU and only for the simple reason that the ratio of a pay check of an average guy and the price of the game has not been considered.

You cant charge 50$ for a game in USA and charge the same for the game in India coz im guesing you would then have to work for 3 months without spending a cent just to buy a game ..

My main reason is price . If a game costs 5$ id buy it, hell its faster then downloading 8GBs, but giving away half my pay check on a game is just insane.

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When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.

smurfdude

Still doesn't justify it. If you cant afford something then you go without. I earn £2200 a month, so i can't afford an Aston Martin DB9, doesn't mean i'm entitled to go out and steal one

retard

Well then only the USA and EU would be playing games and everyone else would look at a nice piece of wall all day long ..

I didnt even try to justify it i just stated my reasons and thats it.

You say you are makeing 2200 a month where ever you live and thats probably good money over there but its just as much as 150e here.
Now imagine that a game was to cost 1500$ would you buy it ? Honestly ? I dont think so.

Thats all coz games are made in the US mostly and thats their primary market so they charge just as much here as they do there. If they were made here for our market they would cost 5$ or maybe even less.

You are looking at this issue from you point of view and dont see the big picture and dont even try to understand what others that pirate coz of the price are talking about but again imagine that a game costs 1500$ and place your self in a position of buying it .. man more than half of your pay is gone on a single game that youll play for 15 hours and than its worthless.

Its not like money here doesent have any buying power i can buy hardware pay the bills and everything i need & want and have enough left to have fun all month with the cash coz the prices are low but this problem with games has not been settled in any way .. i know this is a transitional coutry and things will get better but for now piracy is the way to go .. even the goverment and everyone uses pirated versions on windows why the hell shouldnt i ? Its even easier i install vista no serial needed no activation needed just install and play on.

Again i didnt try to justify it i just stated my reasons as did everyone else here. I know someone put in hours and hours of work every day to make the software but in the end its like do i give back my 8800GT 512MB and pay up another 50e for a 8800GTS 512MB or do i buy a game ? hm.. not a very hard decision if you ask me.

Sure your not entitled to go out and steal one but you can if you choose to and the fact that there is noone to stop you and noone to chase you and track you down only makes it easier. Again im not talking about whos entitled to do what or what is rite and what is wrong i just came out and honestly said why i do the things i do .. And i dont think im entitled to pirate a game. Who is entitled to do what is not the subject of this thread nor my post nor did i ask/seek your approval for anything and i dont think game publishers/creators should in any way approve of pirating for any reason.

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When the power of love overcomes the love of power the world will know peace.

Markius

Piracy is theft. Fact.

Its up to the individual as the wether they want to be a thief or not.


Oh and keep this in mind, your still a thief even if your the only one that knows you stole somthing.

(this post is in general and not aimed at anyone)

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DriverHeavens Aussie...

"Lifes tragedy is that we get old too soon and wise too late"

Lowfat

Agreed. I never pirate games anymore. I do not buy a ton of games generally because I can't afford to. But I don't go out and download it either.

Piracy is killing this industry as most of you can see. A few years ago we had tons of games that were PC exclusive. Now almost all games are console ports, and lousy ones at that. Then we have the nerve to complain on how bad the port was. Well if more people would actually pay for the game, maybe the studios would be willing to spend more time and money to make a better version for PC.

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Mousey

I earn £13.50 a week, sometimes £18 or more with tips or bonuses for working hard which i don't always get because my boss is usually too busy to work out tips for me (I got some tips this week because the girl i was working with, Lauren was generous enough to share with me). The only place i can get games cheap enough now is usually steam.
Since games are getting bigger i honestly can't be arsed pirating them anymore, 6gb to try bioshock? no thank you :\

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BWX

I buy most PC games I have ever played. I enjoy supporting the PC gaming industry, especially when the games are well made and deserving of every bit of profit they get.

Sometimes I download games I would never buy in a million years because of the quality of game development, final product (or lack-thereof), a genre I am uninterested in, etc... just to check them out. I haven't in a long time though; nothing seems worth the time to even do that. I either buy it, or don't play it.

IMO downloading software is not "stealing" if you were never going to buy it in the first place. Some people refuse to concede this point, but it doesn't matter, that's the way it is.

There is no way to compare software to a car, pack of cigarettes, food, or any other tangible physical object unless that object can be copied for free infinitely until the end of time. Think about it, it's not like if you download a hack-job copy of a game that there are any fewer legit copies on the shelves to sell to legitimate customers. There is no relationship to the two. Plus, if you download software, you do not get the physical object you get when you buy it- You also take risks by installing some hack-job software(possible virus infected, etc), you do not get the LEGAL rights to use it, nor do you get the physical package --- the actual THING you buy when you buy the retail game. You take risks downloading, and you CAN get caught.. People DO get caught and prosecuted all the time. The chances are low of course, but they are real.

I also tip at least 20% of the bill every time I go out to eat or get food delivered.. it is the honor system, just like if "real life". People can probably get away with a lot of theft in the real world if they wanted to, some people do- most do not even think about it. Why does every company have loss-prevention? Why do people who actually pay their medical bills pay higher costs because of dead beats that never pay? It's because the service or physical object they are buying has value and is in limited supply, one way or the other, not like a bunch of copied series of "1's and 0's" floating around on the internet that has no value in and of itself, other than the electricity needed to send them from one place to another.

Downloading software that you would never buy anyway is not a black and white issue, anyone who thinks that way obviously is not thinking things through all the way and are just as polarizing as the people who try to rationalize downloading every single piece of software they ever use without paying for any of it, just because they can.

The worst people are the ones who make physical copies of games and software and sell them on street corners, virtual or otherwise.. They are the ones that are hurting the game devs, the software devs, and they are usually in countries other than the US or other developed countries where the profits would be going. China anyone? Hell, they copy actual physical products and try to pass them off as real.. Hasn’t anyone ever watched a documentary or news program or read an article on the rampant fraud going on in that country alone?

No, the problem is not some guy downloading a game he would have never bought in the first place; it is organized fraud and counterfeiting going on in mass factories all over the world for profit. Think people. Think. It's obvious who the real bad guys are. It isn't the people spending their hard earned money on overly priced PC hardware and sometimes sampling a crappy game downloaded form the internet he never would have bought anyway.

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instago

Piracy does not mean lost sales. Most games people download they wouldn't buy anyway for whatever reason. I honestly don't believe there are many people that can afford to buy a game, but then pirate it just because they can.

Plus, theft of intellectual property in terms of video games is hard to compare to anything else. It's not like plagairism, because no credit is being taken, and it's not like stealing a tangible product, because stealing that would remove it from the hands of another person. Digital piracy is in a world of its own.

And honestly, people living on low wages deserve to enjoy a decent game regardless of whether they can pay for it or not. Life is short, at least let them play a game if they want to.

The_Neon_Cowboy

Many games don't have demos. It the only way to try some games before u buy. I
know I don't fork out $50 for a game if I haven’t played it, or a demo, or unless it one
of the top titles... Or even if I like it I might wait till the price drops…We are expected
to fork out $50 and if the game sucks? We are out our money for a pretty drink
coaster? Hell no.

Consoles are more profitable because face it in general people are idiots when it comes
to pcs. They buy that great $299 PC at wall mart and wonder why they hot new game
won’t run right. But that the consoles just work…. That and people with pay $59 + for
games are just getting suckered IMO. When u can get the same game on Pc for less…
Not to mention console game piracy is no less than the pc game piracy going on…


agreed... I think if they put ot more demos they would cub the needfor some piracy.
(or offer fsome sort of refunds on thier titles )

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Mousey

Amen.
Amen.
and Amen.

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YAYitsAndrew

Your first statement is a generalization. Nothing shows that people who pirate do not buy games. Maybe you're really excited about Spore and can't wait to play it. A normal person in that situation is going to be at Gamestop buying the game, but the pirate in the same situation will hit torrent sites. That's a lost sale. For what you say to truly be accurate, that would mean that pirates accidentally download games and play them, or download games without knowing anything about them. That simply isn't true. Whatever basic research pirates do before starting that 4 gb torrent and seeing if it's worth their time, that's the same process another legitimate buyer uses to determine his purchase.

Suck it.

You're right that it is difficult to finger what the consequences are, exactly, to piracy. Think of the basic human nature of "me too", though. If that guy gets all his games for free and has no risk of getting caught, why should I bother paying for mine? This kind of thinking can easily drive someone to pirate games. If no one cared about piracy and no one was raising the wall on difficulty to pirate, then game makers would get profits similar to what they see in asian markets like taiwan where pirating has a low barrier and runs rampant in the country. Those profits are non existent. No money is made in those markets. Would you spend 1-3 years working on something, paying people millions of dollars, if you knew in the end that you would get no money out of it? Digital piracy will destroy our industry if it is allowed to become the dominant way people acquire games. And since everyone loves getting stuff they want for free with no consequences, how easily could piracy become dominant if no one is trying to stop it?

Suck it.

You'll never be able to convince people that because some people are more poor than others they deserve certain goods for free that others pay for. I come from a low income single-parent family and had most of my private institution college tuition paid for by the government. There were always people who felt they were smarter than me and deserved the money more than me or that the money should be equalized since we will all graduate and earn the same salaries. In the same fashion, you'll never find a proper way to analyze who exactly is worthy of being able to steal games and who isn't. I make a very small amount of money compared to the other people who live in my town, and it often affects my way of living because I don't have much money after paying bills and rent. I could move somewhere else and live like a king, except then I wouldn't have the job I have; I'd have one that pays less. It's called cost of living and because of it you'll never be able to truly determine who deserves what. Everyone thinks they're poor and deserving of some aid because we all want infinite amounts of money and have nothing even approximating that.

I apologize for the suck its, I don't mean to be biting or flaunting but I figured throwing those in there might actually get more people to read my giant wall of text.

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"It is because the resistance to paying for copyrighted material, although often characterized as arising from a supposed technical burden or principled concern for the public interest, arises rather from exactly the same segment of the brain that is dominant in shoplifters."
- Mark Helprin, Digital Barbarism
In other words, it's never okay to steal even if you think you have a good reason!

www.yayitsandrew.com

OmegaRED

Nah, instago's argument that poor people should be able to steal because they can't afford goods is so retarded he deserved at least one more "suck it".

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Brutality

Fuck you all, you anti-piracy pussies. Don't be such a whiny bitches! DIE!

YAYitsAndrew

lol this thread is awesome

edit: I think I broke the pirates' brains, they're just spouting obsceneties and gibberish now!

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"It is because the resistance to paying for copyrighted material, although often characterized as arising from a supposed technical burden or principled concern for the public interest, arises rather from exactly the same segment of the brain that is dominant in shoplifters."
- Mark Helprin, Digital Barbarism
In other words, it's never okay to steal even if you think you have a good reason!

www.yayitsandrew.com

OmegaRED

Not true, I'm a pirate and have kept my head

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