ET3D

During the discussion about Crytek moving to the consoles due to PC piracy, I realised the move to the consoles is happening not because of piracy, but because there's no compelling reason to develop specifically for the PC any more.

Piracy always existed, and the PC was always a smaller gaming market (though the extend of both might have changed over the years). But at most points in the past, the PC had significant technical advantages over the consoles, that made it the obvious platform for the more impressive games.

Graphics were one area. When consoles were 16 bit, the PC could already do some 3D. When consoles got 3D, the PC could do a lot more impressive 3D. The amount of RAM and disk space meant a lot more complexity could be achieved. Multiplayer on consoles meant split screen, but on the PC you could play with people across town or across the globe.

So even with the drawbacks of the market, if a developer wanted to make a game that'd wow people, that'd push the gaming experience forward, the PC was the place to be. If you even wanted to tell a somewhat complex story, or express your artistic vision, the PC was the place to be.

The current generation of consoles has eroded that edge. Console graphics are good enough for impressive art, networking is built in, hard disks are there, and RAM, while still limited, is to the point where it's not as much of a limitation.

PC still has the technical edge at everything, but for some things, that's only at the high end. The PC market is more fragmented than it used to be. When PC's did software 3D and consoles didn't, that was an advantage of all PC's. Sure, you might have needed a lower res and you got bad speed, but it was there. Similarly when the PS2 was console king and PC's could do better 3D.

The failure of Vista and the limitation of DX10 to that system meant that the technical advantage in graphics, which was already smaller than in the past, was eroded further. The PC market's move towards notebooks reduced the average hardware spec even further, probably even amongst gamers.

Even the PC's advantage for indy games is eroding. The PC is the best entry point for developers, since it has free tools and no limitations on distribution. Still, the consoles have made big strides. Indy game offerings are sold for download on the consoles, and Microsoft has even removed the technical barrier for entry by making available XNA Game Studio.

Controllers, another area where the PC has some advantages, are also changing on the console side. The Wii has led the way, and the others are following. Consoles are becoming more accessible to those who aren't used to a classic console controller.

So while the consoles still don't offer everything a PC can offer, they're getting damned close. They're already close enough that there's no great reason for any game to have the PC as the main market, and by the next generation there'd probably be even closer. I can't see consoles going back to 10 year lifecycles that let the PC get away, and even if they have longer cycles, technology is IMO at a point of diminishing returns. I can't imagine looking at any near future game and thinking "wow" due to technical reasons the way some games in the past have done. It'd be up to the story and execution to get my attention, and there's no significant benefit for very powerful hardware here.

BlueMak

The PC didn't always have an advantage in graphics.
When the Atari ST and Amiga 500 were introduced, the PC couldn't reach their graphical (and sound I think) capabilities, and both ST and 500 were cheaper than the average PC.
Hell, even when the first mass produced consoles could do colour graphics, the best the PC could do was some horrible hercules or at best cga solutions.
I don't know where you get that the PC had advantage over the consoles and other systems. What would happen was the PC would always catch up eventually, till the next generation of consoles appeared where the consoles would regain the throne for graphics supremacy. In the late 90s the PCs were keeping their crown for a bit more, but not long.
Now days the graphics have reached a point where most consoles and PCs can do good enough graphics that for the vast majority of people, are good enough to not see a good enough point to buy an upgradable (which in practice it means buying a whole new pc) and more expensive PC, than a cheaper console that (malfunctions aside) can keep for 5+ years. Duration which a PC gamer will buy 2....5? PCs.

Vista didn't fail. Only people failed who for their own ego used lies to badmouth Vista.

As long as PCs offer more detailed graphics, higher resolutions and better controller for some games, PC will remain the king for certain genres like strategy and wargaming.

When/if there are options to properly use a mouse for games and they can have more detailed graphics, the consoles will have one more card up their sleeves.

Still, the PC gaming will not die for one very simple reason. Install base that the consoles can only dream of reaching.

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

OmegaRED

I'm willing to accept the idea that PC's have lost their edge against the current gen of consoles but the PC industry moves much faster than the fixed lifespan of a console so anything could happen. I always wondered what would happen if either Nvidia or ATI was bought out or worked together. Or if motherboards came with onboard gpu's more powerful than the best video card out today. A lot of far fetched things now could happen in 5 years while people are still playing their PS3's and 360's.

Now that I've had a couple of HDTV's I'm starting to wonder if the bane of PC gaming will not be the consoles themselves but the big screen tv's people play them on. They will only get bigger, more detailed and cheaper as time goes on but how big can your computer monitor get? Even if you could get a 40" monitor how practical would that be for anything other than professional use?

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BlueMak

A screen is a screen. If you have no problem gaming in front of a 40" TV, you shouldn't have a problem doing in front of a 40" monitor...

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

ET3D

Okay, I'll qualify this as "always" equalling 1987 or so. Basically, I'm discussing the period in which the PC was a viable gaming machine. For much of this period it had distinct advantages over other platforms (not all encompassing, and not all the time, but for much of the time).

Going over some wikipedia entries, I can see the consoles getting perhaps a year or two of advantage, and that's over the mid-range PC's. For most of their lives, consoles are behind even mid-range PC's.

I didn't say that Vista was a bad OS. I meant it failed commercially. A lot of gamers kept to XP.

I'd say that the genre which uses advanced graphics the most is action. Console graphics should be enough for most things (as you said before), and few people have over 1080p on the desktops, either. I agree about the controller, but as I said, that's in the process of changing.

Isn't it the other way around? For AAA games, the PC install base is smaller. For casual games, the PC platform isn't really important, since flash based web apps are good enough in many cases.

BlueMak

Even if you count VGA as the first time the PC gained the upper hand in graphics over the other systems, the vast vast VAST majority of PCs still came with only a hercules or CGA, and if lucky, EGA solution. VGA did not gain a sizeable share till the early 90s.

I don't know what wiki entry you are talking about, or how accurate it is, I am talking about simply from living through the period and remembering things very well.
Even so what the insides of systems, that doesn't mean much for a simple reason. Developers keep pushing what a console can do, the same way they did with Home Computers
(Amiga 1986 to Amiga 1989 )
Such a huge difference in graphics quality and you did not need to get any upgrades for it. Where for the PC, try to play a recent DX9 game with one of the first DX9 cards and tell me how it goes. Or take the first DX10 cards geforce 8800, and see if they can play a modern DX10 game at the same minimum speed as a GTX285 at the same graphic details etc.
PC developers are lazy gits.

I talked about detailed, not advanced. Try to play a complex wargame with a ton of graphical details and numbers and text on any console and tell me if it works. Of course you won't be able since there is nothing like that there, the control schemes and almost inability to have something as detailed as a wargame there is one of the issues I mentioned earlier.


I don't understand your logic 100%. There are no just two types of games, AAA FPS and flash based web games, so what you say doesn't make sense.

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

Blomkungen

Really interesting thread
I will be spending alot of time on this forum i guess =)

Anyways my view on this

OK the Console is more available for the general consumer but it also has it weakspots like the graphics in most cases being alot worse and we all know even the normal consumer loves good graphics and expects everything to look better then in real life

But then again to get those really good looking graphics on a pc you will have to spend a couple of hundred more euros then on a Console

But the biggest advantage of the PC is the fact that it isnt a simple one purpose machine and you can utilize it for several other things then to just play games

Also the fact that the mouse and keyboard is impossible to compete with in precision and usefulness

Jac

The ease with which developers can now create a game and port it to the 3 major platforms is what is driving games at the moment. It's just good business sense. It is a little frustrating for PC owners because it means games will be limited to the lowest common denominator - the consoles hold back the PC.

Also the console users tend to be younger and I would say that often (not always) the games are less sophisticated. Another obvious problem is the memory of the consoles - it doesn't lend itself to open world gaming.

I wonder what effect this will have on companies like ATi and Nvidia. They rely on selling new, more advanced video cards but when a 9600GT can run modern games at acceptable FPS why would people spend £500 on the new GTX390OMFGWTF.

SeraphicSorcerer

I think honestly it's the broader audience and higher profit potential of developing for a fixed platform, and then YOU DON'T HAVE TO PATCH YOUR GAMES. I am sure that ups their profits by 100% right there. Also with the advent of DLC, They just add, and add, and add to their coffers.....

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OmegaRED

Come on BlueMak, how far do you sit from your monitor hmm? Close enough to touch it I bet, most people couldn't even fit a 40" on their computer desk.

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BlueMak

My comment OmegaRED was about the type of the screen (TV or Monitor), not the size.

I have a 24" monitor that I use for my PC, consoles, TV viewing (USB tuner), and in terms of size it is perhaps even too big for everything apart from watching movies. If in the next couple of years I manage to move to another house, I will probably end up with a large TV for viewing movies and a ~22" monitor for gaming and PC usage.

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

comp_ali

Well , I think PCs don't just have the edge in graphics . There are many advantage of PC games :

-Keyboard+mouse configuration means higher senstivity and better shooter/strategy games experience so unless they can implement the ability to game with a mouse in consoles (in which they could change console name to a PC then lol)

- Longer life span for games : look at Counter strike for example it sells well to this time. The dedicated servers support created a committed community around the game plus that you can make maps / mods which means longer experience than the console's counterpart.

-PC is not just for gaming : You can almost do everything on PC watching movies (it is true that PS3/X360 can as well but there are limits as well). Browse internet ( Again back in the days the console didn't know about networking but now there are PSN/Xbox live /Net flix / facebook ..... to imitate the PC. PC isn't only for gaming it is for productivity as well , tons of apps.

And more and more ..

So , why do developers move form PC to console :

- because it is easier to develop , one hardware standard you code the game to work for and it will work for eveyone.

-Easy money , the console games sells better at least in their first days than the PC counterparts .And because of the various PC hardware , this means more money spent on developing the game to work well on everyone's PC (I don't mean you EA or the other lazy direct porters)

-higher prices for games (A full price in consoles' language mean 60$ while it is usually 50$ for the PC version) " I don't mean you greedy bastards Activison"

RE III - Frankie

What used to happen with computers (PC's) is that if they became a problem the entire globe would immediately turn their backs on them and go shoot hoops with mates instead, but in the world as it is today with the "integration" of computers with our daily lives, this method which was successful in the past is no longer validated and therefore can no longer be of subsidiary use. Basically this boils down to if there is a problem whoever is standing next to it is gonna blow up with it. No, second chances, you are either in or your out.

orion_star

Console games get patches now, this is not solely a PC thing anymore. Same thing with DLC it is no longer a console only thing.

Consoles are 'successful' because it is a sort of monopoly so the game developers need to pay a licensing fee which in turn allows Microsoft/Sony/Nintendo to sell their consoles for a loss as they makes considerably more money from the games than the consoles themselves.

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Judas

erm.... considering the fact that the PC that ran kings quest and later a few years later ran a game visually similare to that of the 2nd picture without any changes to the system..

i think it's a bit biased perhaps.

Granted PCs are still harder to develope for due to the huge swath of components and hardware and software solutions available that are different, still PC in every generation i've seen has ALWAYS been ahead of the game ASIDE from the emediate release of new consoles.

An example of which is the release of the ATI x1xxx series gpu's when the xbox360 arrived, the gpu's were essentially very similare, and the graphics capabilities was only marginally better on the PC...

Only until the next generation GPU's arrived did pc have a much more clear advantage over it again, but it was sevearly hampered by the vista hate bandwagon and developers were uninterested in developing for anything above the dx9.0c until win7 launched... So we had roughly 3 years of drought for the PC.... games are developed for the console, ported over with no improvements at all to the PC....... Good number of people are playing shitty MMOs like WoW and so forth where the requirements are that you should have a machine that could be as old as 5-8 years and it'd still play.

No one is pushing the envelope for the PC, which is sad, and crytec/crisis i don't think really counts and there simply isn't any way things that look like that should run that poorly.

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BlueMak

Judas...I just don't get your point you are trying to make with my screenshots.

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

DJ BIG T

he needs to say no to drugs...=p

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DJ BIG T

same with pc theres patches for the games..

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demarc

they have another thread for this discussion here on the forum

PC gaming, still the best?

graphics wise? pc wins. i think console graphics if compared to pc graphics are on medium setting
ROI for game developers? console wins hands down

here's my take on this which i wrote on that thread

orion_star

I made that point in my first sentence. My point was that PC's are no longer the only 'system' to get patches.

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charm_quark

from the the thread name, it doesn't refer only to PC Gaming, so thus is my opinion, in the gamin industry/side so so, however in the other industries such as communication and computing the pc still rocks!!

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Three quarks for Muster Mark!
Sure he has not got much of a bark
And sure any he has it's all beside the mark.
—James Joyce, Finnegans Wake

Tyrsonswood

Don't forget.... all those console games are written on PC's as well....

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orion_star

Well being that this thread is in the gaming discussion forum I think it is implied that it is in reference to gaming.

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YnHDaRkMaN

lemme add something...
even if Wii, PS3 and 360 have internet browsing, Facebook and all that stuff, most internet-active people have a PC in their houses to do email, social websites and other stuff... even if they already have a console capable of doing that...

so, if you get a PC, you get all its multi-purpose greatness, and for an extra bucks, gaming capabilities... yes, you can spend thousands and whatnot, but that doesn't mean you SHOULD spend a lot, you can always build a mid-range PC and still play recent games at 720p, which is still a very acceptable level of detail nowadays...

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SeraphicSorcerer

I think part of the problem also is all the PCs that are sold with LACKLUSTER Intel graphic solutions, XBOX/PS3 (and even Wii) is guaranteed a certain hardware level, and dedicated memory, I think they get so sick of supporting the million options that they just take the easy option.

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Mousey

To be honest i completely disagree with your statement ET3D. The PC might not always be the dominant format but dammit it's the one that keeps pulling through.
If the PC wasn't a successful gaming platform we wouldn't have GH or probably even have bothered building our systems that we're posting from right now.

Piracy has always been there in the gaming market not just for PC but for every console, film and song ever released and you don't hear the latter moaning about it all the time. The whole reason most companies will complain about piracy publicly is because it brings publicity, it's a bawww campaign to make people feel sorry for them and buy their games regardless of whether they would actually play them.

If developers are so concerned about bad sales my only response is stop making bad games, Include more colours than dogshit brown and steel grey, Think up a different plot instead of Generic Space Marine #>9000 saves the world again from some enemy we've never heard of or will ever care about.

Just because new games aren't raining down on us 24/7 does NOT mean the PC has lost it's edge, I don't bother with new games because i know they'll either be crap or probably out-specced for my system at the minute since i don't have any money to upgrade it. I play Counter Strike Source and GTA4, World of Warcraft and Garry's Mod, Those are hardly new now but goddamit they're better than most pieces of crap the major players in the gaming industry sh!t out before us now.

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SeraphicSorcerer

I completely agree Mousey, that's the other side of the problem, Sort of like the movies from hollywood, Haven't I seen this shit before?

Your piracy arguement seems correct.

Most downloaded Film? avatar. (1.6 Billion worldwide now)

Most downloaded Game? MW2 (Made 300 million and Infinity etc were going WE ROCKS)

Make a decent game, people buy it, people simply will not put cash down on crap products. It has nothing to do with being free.

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BlueMak

MW2 last I heard broke the 1 billion mark.

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

Mousey

I wrote an article about that on my blog actually
MW2 recently hit the 1 billion dollar mark, And earned about $300 million within the first week of release.

And to say piracy is killing infinity ward after that? Pfft. Bullshit

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comp_ali

And they spent only 40 million on developing it , according to some sources anyway.
See , nothing is more profitable than games nowadays