BlueMak

For those who care about 3D glasses etc, an interesting interview
3D films and games with glasses from ATI before Christmas - DigitalVersus

What I find more interesting is what they say about Nvidia near the end.

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The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

OmegaRED

One reason I upgraded to a high end video card was to do 3D gaming on a 3D HDTV. I have absolutely no interest in Nvidia's crappy 3D monitors when you can buy a massive 58-63" Plasma which comes with 3D glasses and then just play all your PC games in 3D using 3rd party drivers. Like the article says, 3D movies are not going to be a big deal it'll be 3D gaming that drives the 3D hardware sales.

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Sihastru

Unless the whole thing is just a big flop just like any other ATi "open" standard. I'm all for openness but the company needs to support it with more then just words. This feels more like "we'll wait and see what others have to offer, we're too busy (or perhaps too poor) to be bothered with this technology".

New technologies need to be pushed to market, the companies need to be commited and this needs to be seen. Every one says nVidia is not doing anything about open standards, that PhysX is closed and can only be used by nVidia cards, but at least they are doing something. I am still waiting on ATi physics, and most of all, I'm waiting for other companies to start supporting ATi's open strategies. The problem is that right now, there are a lot of companies backing nVidia's CUDA technologies, for example Adobe's CS5 is CUDA only (and saying that nVidia gave them money is just ridiculous, Adobe could eat nVidia for lunch), a lot of video decoders/encoders support CUDA, but not Stream. Why is that? Don't say it's because nVidia is paying them not to do so. It's because ATi doesn't really back up their words, they don't offer support (because they don't really have the money to do so). But accusing the company that actually tries to do anything (do drive their own sales, but that's like "d'oh!") of doing it wrong is a bit uncalled for.

As far as 3D TV's there are a lot of "standards", every company has it's own standard, there is no ONE open standard for 3D content delivery. So how was nVidia suppose to support each and every one of these standards, open or closed? The market trend is that in a few years things will settle and just one regulated standard will remain, if any will remain at all, the whole technology might disappear completely, it's not the first time 3D was pushed like this.

Do you remember the Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD war? Blu-Ray won. It's like that now with 3D, just that now, there are a lot of companies trying to push their own 3D technology. If there were two, then nVidia could have just backed one of them and see what happened from there.

Yes, 3D vision costs money, but ANY 3D TV/LCD does, they all have proprietary 3D active shutter or polarised glasses, and 3D vision is available NOW, while ATi's solution is nowhere to be seen. We'll have a fanboy to fanboy discussion when we have products to compare.

Fighting a product with an idea is lame. You can improve products in every way possible, because an actual product needs to be economically fesable and as a concequence it will not be perfect. An idea can sound anyway you like, it's just words put together.

I'm really confused on how nVidia's solution is considered expensive when you have no price points for comparison.

Also saying that DVI has 11 pins it's just hilarious. (link)

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BlueMak

How many monitors support it? I know one 22" Samsung model, which only has DVI-D (double link) connection and resolution of 1680x1050.


If you don't go for it, you will have to go for a TV that supports at least 120hz. Strangely enough LCD TVs that do are expensive.
In both cases, unless you have one such device, you need to buy one.
Where according to AMD you will not need to with them. Not sure why.

The problem with AMD's solution (according to the interview) is that they require HDMI 1.4 Most monitors and TVs even today are 1.3. So basically you will probably still need to buy a new device, although perhaps not a 120Hz+ one.

Still, I would rather first see a finished product from AMD before they attack Nvidia and their solution.

On the other hand, I don't care for "3D" since I refuse to wear glasses to watch a movie or play games. I used to wear glasses most of my life and I don't have to any more and I just refuse to do so now for this reason.

What I am trying to say is, my money is on neither AMD or Nvidia. I expect electronics companies to find a GOOD solution not requiring glasses sooner or later. Till then, I just don't see the "3D" to go anywhere far.

__________________

The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

Sihastru

The technology requires 120Hz+. Because of the way it works. 120Hz+ will translate into 60Hz+ 3D perceived refresh rate. So even an ATi solution for the near future will have this requirement. Also the glasses, oh how I hate the glasses. So the technology will be based on an "open" standard, but the components will be the same, and will be priced at the level the market will allow it to be at that time.

NVidia does not manufacture 3D monitors. The nVidia 3D glasses will work with almost all 120Hz+ monitors. Being 3D Vision certified is just like a PSU being SLI certified. If you have the logo on it, you know for sure, but the lack of the logo doesn't mean the compatibility isn't there. This is the good part of nVidia's implementation. The glasses are synched to the video card and not to the monitor (indirectly they are, but not directly).

FPS in a game will vary considerably, from 0 to 60 in the case of the 120Hz monitors. VSynch ON is a requirement. So at times the glasses will switch for 10 FPS (20Hz), at times for 50 FPS (100Hz) and so on.

The only difference in ATi's implementation will be that it should work with non ATi branded glasses. Will it work with ALL of them? I doubt it. They will just use some random company, that will use some "open" (= FREE, no licensing costs) standard.

You still pay money for the glasses, you still pay money for the monitor or TV, you still install ATi drivers. On TOP of that you need to install 3rd party 3D drivers, which sux. You'll have to rely on a 3rd party company to supply driver updates and fixes. At least with nVidia that is not the case, 3D is built into the driver. When it comes to drivers, simple is better.

As for the next-next-gen 3D, the one without the glasses, it's not yet ready and not doable on large screens. It works for the Nintendo 3DS, but that has a minuscule screen. So I don't think ATi is talking about that.

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BlueMak

...I didn't think that AMD was talking about doing that.
AMD is going to do something that for the end user works in a similar way as Nvidia's solution. That is clear.

I never said that Nvidia requires certain brand of monitor. I said that there is right now only one monitor that has 120Hz and everything else are large screen TVs which don't do so great as PC monitors and they are too expensive.

As I said before, I don't see either of them grabbing a huge part of the market because people don't like wearing glasses, no matter how cool the graphics will look like.

The good thing though is the further development of a system where you will not need to wear glasses. Such a good system which doesn't cost a fortune, should have no problem winning the "war".

I know there are at least 3 different technologies/groups working to succeed in this, so my guess is full working technology is, if not already here (in labs), very close.

__________________

The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

Sihastru

There are many monitors that support 3D Vision right now. Samsung and Acer come to mind as being the first to introduce 120Hz monitors. On nVidia site there is an Acer 24" 1920x1200 monitor that supports 3D Vision.

The actual implementation is not nVidia proprietary. They just sell branded glasses. So it may well be that this will be the future standard and that ATi will have to conform to it.

I wasn't arguing with you , I was just exapanding on the ups and downs of possible implementations.

I agree, current 3D active shutter glasses technology is not that great. It is good, but, like you, I hate the glasses. When I watched Avatar, I had to take a break about half time in, I don't know if I wasn't comfortable or I was really bored with the movie.

I expect the current 3D technology to die out soon...

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crowTrobot

These are not stereoscopic 3D solutions. AMD has one, Sapphire showed the demo in Computex but it only works with a Zalman 3D monitor.

Nvidia's 3D monitor list:
3D Vision Requirements

That's 9 LCDs, 8 more than ATI's proposed stereo 3d solution.

3D Vision will also work with future 3D TVs, there was a press release by Samsung and Sony a few months ago about the software that Nvidia is going to provide for them to use 3D vision (free for 3D Vision Owners but it will cost $20 for those who own the Samsung 3D glasses). If I remember the name I'll post it up.

Veridian3

You can also add the expanding list 3D Vision enabled laptops to that too.

Veridian3

I'm going to forward this thread to AMD/ATI I think to see if they want to come in and address some of the comments in here. There have been some very interesting points raised and I personally feel that they need to expand on their responses from the interview. In their current form they really do come across as unclear. For example:

"TM: There's a pin on the DVI connector which sends the signal to check the presence of an Nvidia graphics card. This is why those monitors won't work with us."

Won't work in what way? I have a 120Hz Samsung DVI 3D Vision monitor and its quite happy being plugged into a 5000 series card.

I'm also interested to see what ATI/AMD have to say on Sihastru's question about what will make this open standard more of a success than their others...

If anyone wants to post specific questions please do so.

BlueMak

I have two questions.
1)Will the requirements match those of Nvidia of a 120Hz monitor, or something different?
2)Instead of a monitor with a 1.4 HDMI, can a dual link DVI-D be used?

__________________

The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

Callandor

I don't mind 3D glasses, never have actually. Early 3D pictures (for example the ones in National Geographic when Pathfinder landed) were hard on the eyes but watching Avatar in 3D wasn't. 3D gaming from ATi might be the thing that brings me back to gaming.

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BlueMak

Oh and Veridian, thanks for offering.

__________________

The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

Veridian3

No probs, i've pointed Shane and Terry in the direction of this thread so hopefully one or both drop by.

Veridian3

Hi all, Terry responded to me earlier and essentially said that they were not going to give out any more information at this time.

I was able to get some clarification on a few things though.

1) With regard to the monitors and being locked out. This only concerns Stereo 3D, standard operation is fine when you combine one with an ATI card.

2) ATI won't be giving out information on which pin blocks non GeForce cards.

3) Terry believes that the main thing which will make this open standard a success is the cost aspect. He feels that it will be significantly cheaper to set up their 3D compared to Nvidia's. (This will be interesting to watch)

4) For the DVI question i can put in my own thoughts... it would be possible to use DVI for ATI 3D but not on existing screens. Those require 3D Vision glasses as they dont come with their own. If ATI were to work with a manufacturer to provide a DVI screen with 3D they would need to bundle compatible glasses with that model.

BlueMak

I have one problem with that. How can it be significantly cheaper when you will be required to have a 120hz hdmi 1.4 monitor. Exactly how many of them are in gamers' houses? Hmm...

__________________

The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

Veridian3

I've a similar school of thought really... if i am a user upgrading to the latest card and 3D capability then i need

1) a new Radeon
2) a new screen (1.4 capable)
3) a hdmi 1.4 cable if it isnt bundled
4) a set of glasses

Not sure how different that will be to

1) a new GeForce
2) a new 120hz screen (which does come bundled with cable in my experience)
3) 3D Vision Glasses/controller

Both then require additional cost for extra sets of glasses.

Time will tell, and I would hope that if nothing else the ATI solution will bring down the cost of 3D Vision but its all a waiting game at the moment.

Robert McClelland

Question is Can my Gigabyte 5850 would do 3d in some point time because I want get 20inch 3dtv is there one around 200-300 sub pair we don't need huge tv for 3d who agrees?

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Veridian3

Depends how far you sit from the screen really. For the 22" screen we use for testing I like to be no more than 5 or so feet from the 3D content... if you were sitting the other side of a 15 foot room it doesnt have quite the impact

As for your 5850, thats a wait and see game at the moment.

BlueMak

Robert, don't forget you will need a HDMI 1.4 monitor (and card?)
Also, it perhaps has to do 120Hz too.
If you are interested in 3D on ATI, I would wait before buying a monitor for it.

I have zero interest in it (refuse to wear glasses), but I wouldn't mind my next monitor to be a 120Hz+ monitor.

__________________

The people who are regarded as moral luminaries are those who forego ordinary pleasures themselves and find compensation in interfering with the pleasures of others(Bertrand Russell)"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil,You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them." - Lt. Gen. James N. Mattis
This is slavery, not to speak one's thought. [Euripides-The Phoenician Women (c.411-409 B.C.)] http://www.macedonia.info/FALLACIESANDFACTS.htm Sic semper tyrannis.

Robert McClelland

Ya thanks guys Ya I be waiting bit no rush Ya I'm looking into LCD HD monitor replace my old gateway LCD 1730FPD which cost me 400 bucks back then lol. Hard to believe that 7 years old and still runing great lol. Plus my new HD21 direc tv does 3d too. That why I'm going wait and see I allready got 10X LG blu ray player can do 3d movies that why I spend almost 1400 bucks on my system hehe. Kinda starnge that ATI drivers aren't out yet? Was this week that ATI lease out drivers about month ago? Question is how much those 1.4 HDMI cables going be? By way way edited 7400 posted wooppiee

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"XTREME AUDIO IS CRAP!" "There no support for it. It's crapist card on face of the earth it should be throw into the sun"
http://www.speedtest.net/result/1949536385.png