PlayStation 3: Supercomputer-On-A-Chip

Zardon · Jan 12, 2003, 11:46 AM

GameSpy have posted their look @ the technology behind Sony's Playstation 3, which is scheduled for a 2004/5 release.

stories surround the PS3 pointing toward the incorporation of a complex microprocessor, a supercomputer-on-a-chip bearing the moniker "Cell." Being championed by the hardware triumvirate of IBM, Sony, and Toshiba, these companies have pledged $400 million to the project.

Cell, scheduled to hit the market in late 2004 or early 05, differs notably from current processors. This finely crafted chunk of silicon will contain multiple chips within a single unit, and will be able to perform in excess of one trillion mathematical calculations a second. Put into perspective, that makes it approximately 100 times more powerful than a 2.5 GHz Pentium 4 CPU!

saw this over at warp2search.

Asmoday · Jan 12, 2003, 11:48 AM

.....I wonder what microsoft has up their sleeves to answer this...

Zardon · Jan 12, 2003, 11:49 AM

maybe the Z-BOX?

ToshiroOC · Jan 12, 2003, 11:49 AM

Remember, they WANT it to do about a 1000 gigaflops... and with the most powerful consumer computers, at that future time, following moores law, the Playstation 3 chip would be about 25 times more powerful than the most advanced Intel and AMD would be able to throw at them... so why do I smell either overoptimism or plain marketing bullshit coming down the line? If they do pull it off, however, I'm going to buy Sony stock and get myself a Playstation 3 (if the silicon doesn't drive the price up to about the size of a mid-range house...)

EDIT: spelling...

Zardon · Jan 12, 2003, 11:52 AM

the thing ive noticed with consoles is that when they plan a release its the most powerful thing in the world, then by the time its released, the equivalent PC of the day is already 2x more powerful........

ToshiroOC · Jan 12, 2003, 11:57 AM

My money would be on them pulling off a chip that gets close to what they want, but it having so many transistors that they get terrible yield at an excessive cost, and so they end up cutting back the number of parallel processors inside Cell, and then ending up around where Zardon said, 2x slower than the PC of the day...

UberLord · Jan 12, 2003, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zardon
the thing ive noticed with consoles is that when they plan a release its the most powerful thing in the world, then by the time its released, the equivalent PC of the day is already 2x more powerful........

Ah but with consoles you're writing code for specific hardware. Thusly it appears "faster". Try running Tomb Raider 1 on an equivalent PC spec as the PS1 and you'll see what I mean

Zardon · Jan 12, 2003, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by UberLord
Ah but with consoles you're writing code for specific hardware. Thusly it appears "faster". Try running Tomb Raider 1 on an equivalent PC spec as the PS1 and you'll see what I mean

also with consoles you are running at 640x480. I ran Tomb raider 1 on my old P200 with a 3dfx pretty well at that resolution.

this debate is not based on which "appears" to run faster, its based on the sheer power of the GPU/CPU and overall gaming bandwidth. when consoles are able to run 1600x1200 with fsaa and aniso then it will be a debate on level ground.

on the flip side of the coin, a game such as rallisport challenge on the PC runs like shit at 1280x1024 due to sloppy PC programming, whereas on the xbox it runs and plays beautifully (640x480). but this is a seperate issue.

the point is, when most manufacturers release spec lists for a new console its the equivalent of a high end pc or thereabouts, such as the PS3 is now... but when its eventually released the fastest PC is normally at least twice as powerful, and im sure this will always be the case. of course this has nothing to do with "playablity" !

No_Style · Jan 12, 2003, 03:19 PM

Sony = PS3
Sony, working with Rambus and Toshiba, busting out The Cell.

Nintendo = GC2 (Tentative Title)
Nintendo enlisted NEC, which worked on the Dreamcast.

Microsoft = X-Box Next (Speculated Title)
Microsoft still looking. Rumoured ATI might be hopping on the Microsoft Console train. Cuz after all they are getting royalties for their assistance with the current Nintendo Game Cube.

I'm too lazy to look for links to back up my stuff. But it's all over the net. The Nintendo and NEC deal was press released on the NEC japanese site I believe. And I think news.com said something about Microsoft registering Xboxnext.com.

DriveEuro · Jan 12, 2003, 08:16 PM

There has already been talk of X-BOX 2.... Like 2 months ago.

FuNsTeR · Jan 12, 2003, 08:42 PM

if its gonna be that powerful who's gonna need a pc .. take it their will be a hard drive os and ports ie usb and firewire included ??

DriveEuro · Jan 12, 2003, 08:52 PM

eh, who knows, who cares.....ps3 is 1-2 years away.

mbeeston · Jan 12, 2003, 08:56 PM

wonder if "cell" will be avalible for pc's in 2005

UberLord · Jan 13, 2003, 12:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by FuNsTeR1970
if its gonna be that powerful who's gonna need a pc .. take it their will be a hard drive os and ports ie usb and firewire included ??

Thats what MS want in the end. They've cornered the desktop market and the home market. Now they want complete control of your home "PC".

Dom · Jan 13, 2003, 12:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Zardon

...approximately 100 times more powerful than a 2.5 GHz Pentium 4 CPU!

WOW!

jp306 · Jan 14, 2003, 08:40 PM

I want a psx3

phoenixphylok · Jan 16, 2003, 05:46 AM

The real competition between MS and Sony is the launch date. If microsoft is behind sony once again, The PS3 will clean up, just like the PS2 did.

nz_skater · Jan 20, 2003, 05:34 AM

I hope they can pull it off and that the PS3 doesn't end up costing $1000. The thought of Microsoft having a decent grip on the home entertainment market is slightly scary. Next thing you know kids will have to have a .Net login to sign in to school

zyajzarc · Jan 22, 2003, 07:35 AM

i doubt that Sony would release the psx3 @ 1000 buckz... the most expensive system was either the Apple Pippen or the Sega Saturn... both at release were selling or 500.. and that was WAY back.... now these consoles are trying to become "super" gpu's and that's it. The XBOX runs only on 733mhz.. but itz Nvidia GPU is supposed to be faster than a Geforce 4.... so itz not really how fast.. but more of how nice. Even if the psx3 is 100 times more powerful than an 2.5 ghz P4... if there's no GPU to support the encoding for the games.. then the games run a great framerate.. but look like crap... or vise versa... Itz a matter of integrating all the the capabilities of a PC into a box and just use it for gaming. That's the reason these "consoles" are called Computer Entertainment Systems.... they're just like mini compz.

I really don't care who'z working on what program as long as the company supports everything they do.. unlike nintendo w/ their 64.... they wanted to come out with the 64DD... never happened.. then a DVD player.... never happened... then a modem.. never happened.... finally they have the GC but even to most serious console gamers, that thingz a POS.

just my $0.02

nz_skater · Jan 22, 2003, 07:07 PM

I live in New Zealand

So when I say $1000 I mean around $500US. My PS2 cost me $1000NZ on release day, which was AGES after you guys got them

zyajzarc · Jan 23, 2003, 06:53 AM

ahhh... i see... well... i feel sorry for you guys... i think the same goes in aussiland... you guyz pay twice as much as we do here in the US... but i assume that the price / earnings ratio is fairly even right?... or is inflation over there like insanely high?

amuro · Jan 26, 2003, 08:26 PM

Hi all, long time no post, but I'm back.

about that quote "approximately 100 times more powerful than a 2.5 GHz Pentium 4 CPU!"

Well I remember when Nintendo announced their N64 years before it was released, it was heralded as The Power of a SGI Super Computer in your home for graphics in games.

Also SEGA Dreamcast's Hitachi SH4 CPU was supposed to be four times more powerfull than a Pentium I @ 200Mhz with MMX Technology, due to the chip being designed to specificaly work on floating point calculations better.

Then the same thing happened with the PS2's Emotion Engine, that it was advertised in trade shows as taking games to the Full Motion Video poligon graphics level.

For XBox all I remember was that it was gonna have a PIII at 733Mhz (I heard this rumor in early 2000 before Nvidia was officially chosen) and at the time we were like wow a PIII doing nothing BUT game code.

for GC it was very top secret, thats all then some stuff came out but I was not aware.

But back to that first quote, all these consoles (except XBox) were finished hardware about over 9 to 16 months before shipping to retail, because the programers have to code the custom graphic libraries so that games are made, but to make a game it also takes time.

My question is, if SONY's PS3 "cell" CPU (its a CPU right?) is being heralded with all this power, what about the fact that Nintendo, Microsoft and SEGA (in their arcade Naomi 2 board) placed a FOCUS on GPU power instead of the CPU, is the PS3 chip and architecture going to be the same as the PS2 and other pre GPU consoles?

I mean, jeez, look at XBox they have a GeForce 3 Ti type GPU, and recently ATI has their 9700Pro GPU that is Twice as fast as a GF4 Ti. And that was all shipped back in 2002, we are in 2003 now, the PS3 is coming out in 2005 as a likely date, wouldn't ATi or Nvidia or ANY of the other graphics card makers eclipse these current GPUs, even with Moore's Law?

amuro · Jan 26, 2003, 08:38 PM

this quote.
"the most expensive system was either the Apple Pippen or the Sega Saturn... both at release were selling or 500.. and that was WAY back"

Well yes the Saturn in the USA was released at 399.99 or 449.99, BUT, the SNK Neo Geo Gold, the Neo Geo CD and CDZ were much more expensive at first but they were not released in the same way a Saturn was, you had to go to special US shops or Order it from SNK USA.

But I think that the title for the MOST expensive gaming console has to go to the 3D0, that thing was like $799.99 I think, at all the stores I went to the price was sky high, really ridiculous, then the Atari Jaguar came out at around 300, but when the Saturn and PS came out the 3DO came down in price big time.

BWX · Feb 3, 2003, 07:36 AM

The PS2 is a POS- and it was supposed to be the best thing in the world. I am sure the PS3 will be a POS compared to the computer I have at that time too. Just more hype to make money.

Why doesn't my ps2 use AA???? I can't even play it anymore cause I feel like I'm going blind looking at the damn jaggies all over the screen! They will never learn.

-={420}=- · Feb 3, 2003, 11:07 AM

"approximately 100 times more powerful than a 2.5 GHz Pentium 4 CPU!"
Wouldn't that be like a 250GHz processor?!? No way!

-={420}=- · Feb 10, 2003, 10:29 AM

I'm surprised no one posted this yet:

ToshiroOC · Feb 10, 2003, 10:36 AM

Well 420, I would have, but its just a screenshot, and given the circumstances it originally popped up in, I'm VERY suspicious of its authenticity... especially given that the "PS3" is in the same font as "PS2", and they have been changing fonts from PS1 to PS2... that, and the PS3 isn't due for 2-3 years, so they probably don't have any prototypes like that yet...

DriveEuro · Feb 10, 2003, 05:14 PM

Yeah, 2-3 years. The design is gonna change. It's gotta.

-={420}=- · Feb 10, 2003, 11:58 PM

Well, at least it's something.

Jan 12, 2003, 11:46 AM	#1
Zardon DriverHeaven Founder Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 32,480 Rep Power: 179	PlayStation 3: Supercomputer-On-A-Chip GameSpy have posted their look @ the technology behind Sony's Playstation 3, which is scheduled for a 2004/5 release. stories surround the PS3 pointing toward the incorporation of a complex microprocessor, a supercomputer-on-a-chip bearing the moniker "Cell." Being championed by the hardware triumvirate of IBM, Sony, and Toshiba, these companies have pledged $400 million to the project. Cell, scheduled to hit the market in late 2004 or early 05, differs notably from current processors. This finely crafted chunk of silicon will contain multiple chips within a single unit, and will be able to perform in excess of one trillion mathematical calculations a second. Put into perspective, that makes it approximately 100 times more powerful than a 2.5 GHz Pentium 4 CPU! saw this over at warp2search.

Jan 12, 2003, 11:48 AM	#2
Asmoday Demonic Join Date: May 2002 Location: In the cold, dark north... Posts: 5,198 Rep Power: 92 System Specs	.....I wonder what microsoft has up their sleeves to answer this... __________________ How You can help Hardwareheaven by using Digg

Jan 12, 2003, 11:49 AM	#4
ToshiroOC Unbiased. Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 4,812 Rep Power: 0	Remember, they WANT it to do about a 1000 gigaflops... and with the most powerful consumer computers, at that future time, following moores law, the Playstation 3 chip would be about 25 times more powerful than the most advanced Intel and AMD would be able to throw at them... so why do I smell either overoptimism or plain marketing bullshit coming down the line? If they do pull it off, however, I'm going to buy Sony stock and get myself a Playstation 3 (if the silicon doesn't drive the price up to about the size of a mid-range house...) EDIT: spelling... __________________ [img][/img] [color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color] Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

Jan 12, 2003, 11:57 AM	#6
ToshiroOC Unbiased. Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 4,812 Rep Power: 0	My money would be on them pulling off a chip that gets close to what they want, but it having so many transistors that they get terrible yield at an excessive cost, and so they end up cutting back the number of parallel processors inside Cell, and then ending up around where Zardon said, 2x slower than the PC of the day... __________________ [img][/img] [color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color] Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

Jan 12, 2003, 03:19 PM	#9
No_Style Styleless Wonder Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Ottawa, Ontario Posts: 6,034 Rep Power: 0	The Console Wars Go On Sony = PS3 Sony, working with Rambus and Toshiba, busting out The Cell. Nintendo = GC2 (Tentative Title) Nintendo enlisted NEC, which worked on the Dreamcast. Microsoft = X-Box Next (Speculated Title) Microsoft still looking. Rumoured ATI might be hopping on the Microsoft Console train. Cuz after all they are getting royalties for their assistance with the current Nintendo Game Cube. I'm too lazy to look for links to back up my stuff. But it's all over the net. The Nintendo and NEC deal was press released on the NEC japanese site I believe. And I think news.com said something about Microsoft registering Xboxnext.com. __________________ "The Best Style Is No Style" Specifications Here

Jan 12, 2003, 11:49 AM	Thread Starter #3
Zardon DriverHeaven Founder Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 32,480 Rep Power: 179	maybe the Z-BOX?

Jan 12, 2003, 11:52 AM	Thread Starter #5
Zardon DriverHeaven Founder Join Date: May 2002 Posts: 32,480 Rep Power: 179	the thing ive noticed with consoles is that when they plan a release its the most powerful thing in the world, then by the time its released, the equivalent PC of the day is already 2x more powerful........

Jan 12, 2003, 08:16 PM	#10
DriveEuro HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Gurnee Illinois Posts: 4,677 Rep Power: 0	There has already been talk of X-BOX 2.... Like 2 months ago. __________________ [color=orange]ASUS P4P800 Deluxe [color=black]-[/color] 2.4C --> 3300mhz [color=black]-[/color] Mushkin PC3200 at 220 5-2-2-2 (cpu limited) [color=black]-[/color] BBAti 9800Pro at 430/375 [/color] [color=black]3[/color][color=gray]D[/color]M[color=black]a[/color][color=gray]r[/color]k[color=yellow]01[/color] [color=black]3[/color][color=gray]D[/color]M[color=black]a[/color][color=gray]r[/color]k[color=yellow]03[/color] 16001200 12801024

Jan 12, 2003, 08:42 PM	#11
FuNsTeR Caledonian and Proud Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Darkest Ayrshire Posts: 1,305 Rep Power: 88 System Specs	if its gonna be that powerful who's gonna need a pc .. take it their will be a hard drive os and ports ie usb and firewire included ?? __________________ "They say when you play a Microsoft CD backwards you can hear satanic messages ..... but that's nothing, if you play it forward it will install Windows"

Jan 12, 2003, 08:52 PM	#12
DriveEuro HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Gurnee Illinois Posts: 4,677 Rep Power: 0	eh, who knows, who cares.....ps3 is 1-2 years away. __________________ [color=orange]ASUS P4P800 Deluxe [color=black]-[/color] 2.4C --> 3300mhz [color=black]-[/color] Mushkin PC3200 at 220 5-2-2-2 (cpu limited) [color=black]-[/color] BBAti 9800Pro at 430/375 [/color] [color=black]3[/color][color=gray]D[/color]M[color=black]a[/color][color=gray]r[/color]k[color=yellow]01[/color] [color=black]3[/color][color=gray]D[/color]M[color=black]a[/color][color=gray]r[/color]k[color=yellow]03[/color] 16001200 12801024

Jan 12, 2003, 08:56 PM	#13
mbeeston HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: alberta, canada (thats north of the usa people) Posts: 1,037 Rep Power: 68 System Specs	wonder if "cell" will be avalible for pc's in 2005 __________________ R.I.P Roadee - you will be missed T_T peace,love, and war... 3 things people look for... "if your going off the deep end, show off, do a cannon ball!" - me

Jan 14, 2003, 08:40 PM	#16
jp306 DriverHeaven Addict Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 309 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	I want a psx3

Jan 16, 2003, 05:46 AM	#17
phoenixphylok Mega-Lurker Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 44 Rep Power: 0	The real competition between MS and Sony is the launch date. If microsoft is behind sony once again, The PS3 will clean up, just like the PS2 did.

Jan 20, 2003, 05:34 AM	#18
nz_skater DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NZ Posts: 33 Rep Power: 0	I hope they can pull it off and that the PS3 doesn't end up costing $1000. The thought of Microsoft having a decent grip on the home entertainment market is slightly scary. Next thing you know kids will have to have a .Net login to sign in to school

Jan 22, 2003, 07:35 AM	#19
zyajzarc DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Southern Cali Posts: 6 Rep Power: 0	i doubt that Sony would release the psx3 @ 1000 buckz... the most expensive system was either the Apple Pippen or the Sega Saturn... both at release were selling or 500.. and that was WAY back.... now these consoles are trying to become "super" gpu's and that's it. The XBOX runs only on 733mhz.. but itz Nvidia GPU is supposed to be faster than a Geforce 4.... so itz not really how fast.. but more of how nice. Even if the psx3 is 100 times more powerful than an 2.5 ghz P4... if there's no GPU to support the encoding for the games.. then the games run a great framerate.. but look like crap... or vise versa... Itz a matter of integrating all the the capabilities of a PC into a box and just use it for gaming. That's the reason these "consoles" are called Computer Entertainment Systems.... they're just like mini compz. I really don't care who'z working on what program as long as the company supports everything they do.. unlike nintendo w/ their 64.... they wanted to come out with the 64DD... never happened.. then a DVD player.... never happened... then a modem.. never happened.... finally they have the GC but even to most serious console gamers, that thingz a POS. just my $0.02

Jan 22, 2003, 07:07 PM	#20
nz_skater DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: NZ Posts: 33 Rep Power: 0	I live in New Zealand So when I say $1000 I mean around $500US. My PS2 cost me $1000NZ on release day, which was AGES after you guys got them

Jan 23, 2003, 06:53 AM	#21
zyajzarc DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Southern Cali Posts: 6 Rep Power: 0	ahhh... i see... well... i feel sorry for you guys... i think the same goes in aussiland... you guyz pay twice as much as we do here in the US... but i assume that the price / earnings ratio is fairly even right?... or is inflation over there like insanely high?

Jan 26, 2003, 08:26 PM	#22
amuro DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 147 Rep Power: 0	Hi all, long time no post, but I'm back. about that quote "approximately 100 times more powerful than a 2.5 GHz Pentium 4 CPU!" Well I remember when Nintendo announced their N64 years before it was released, it was heralded as The Power of a SGI Super Computer in your home for graphics in games. Also SEGA Dreamcast's Hitachi SH4 CPU was supposed to be four times more powerfull than a Pentium I @ 200Mhz with MMX Technology, due to the chip being designed to specificaly work on floating point calculations better. Then the same thing happened with the PS2's Emotion Engine, that it was advertised in trade shows as taking games to the Full Motion Video poligon graphics level. For XBox all I remember was that it was gonna have a PIII at 733Mhz (I heard this rumor in early 2000 before Nvidia was officially chosen) and at the time we were like wow a PIII doing nothing BUT game code. for GC it was very top secret, thats all then some stuff came out but I was not aware. But back to that first quote, all these consoles (except XBox) were finished hardware about over 9 to 16 months before shipping to retail, because the programers have to code the custom graphic libraries so that games are made, but to make a game it also takes time. My question is, if SONY's PS3 "cell" CPU (its a CPU right?) is being heralded with all this power, what about the fact that Nintendo, Microsoft and SEGA (in their arcade Naomi 2 board) placed a FOCUS on GPU power instead of the CPU, is the PS3 chip and architecture going to be the same as the PS2 and other pre GPU consoles? I mean, jeez, look at XBox they have a GeForce 3 Ti type GPU, and recently ATI has their 9700Pro GPU that is Twice as fast as a GF4 Ti. And that was all shipped back in 2002, we are in 2003 now, the PS3 is coming out in 2005 as a likely date, wouldn't ATi or Nvidia or ANY of the other graphics card makers eclipse these current GPUs, even with Moore's Law?

Jan 26, 2003, 08:38 PM	#23
amuro DriverHeaven Lover Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 147 Rep Power: 0	this quote. "the most expensive system was either the Apple Pippen or the Sega Saturn... both at release were selling or 500.. and that was WAY back" Well yes the Saturn in the USA was released at 399.99 or 449.99, BUT, the SNK Neo Geo Gold, the Neo Geo CD and CDZ were much more expensive at first but they were not released in the same way a Saturn was, you had to go to special US shops or Order it from SNK USA. But I think that the title for the MOST expensive gaming console has to go to the 3D0, that thing was like $799.99 I think, at all the stores I went to the price was sky high, really ridiculous, then the Atari Jaguar came out at around 300, but when the Saturn and PS came out the 3DO came down in price big time.

Feb 3, 2003, 07:36 AM	#24
BWX unplugged Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: USNY Posts: 19,669 Rep Power: 110 System Specs	The PS2 is a POS- and it was supposed to be the best thing in the world. I am sure the PS3 will be a POS compared to the computer I have at that time too. Just more hype to make money. Why doesn't my ps2 use AA???? I can't even play it anymore cause I feel like I'm going blind looking at the damn jaggies all over the screen! They will never learn. __________________

Feb 3, 2003, 11:07 AM	#25
-={420}=- DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 1,095 Rep Power: 0	"approximately 100 times more powerful than a 2.5 GHz Pentium 4 CPU!" Wouldn't that be like a 250GHz processor?!? No way! __________________ [COLOR=red]My eBay Auctions[/COLOR]

Feb 10, 2003, 10:29 AM	#26
-={420}=- DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 1,095 Rep Power: 0	I'm surprised no one posted this yet: __________________ [COLOR=red]My eBay Auctions[/COLOR]

Feb 10, 2003, 10:36 AM	#27
ToshiroOC Unbiased. Join Date: Jun 2002 Posts: 4,812 Rep Power: 0	Well 420, I would have, but its just a screenshot, and given the circumstances it originally popped up in, I'm VERY suspicious of its authenticity... especially given that the "PS3" is in the same font as "PS2", and they have been changing fonts from PS1 to PS2... that, and the PS3 isn't due for 2-3 years, so they probably don't have any prototypes like that yet... __________________ [img][/img] [color=White]Peace be with you, Joe.[/color] Driverheaven Staff Member (Supermoderator)

Feb 10, 2003, 05:14 PM	#28
DriveEuro HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Gurnee Illinois Posts: 4,677 Rep Power: 0	Yeah, 2-3 years. The design is gonna change. It's gotta. __________________ [color=orange]ASUS P4P800 Deluxe [color=black]-[/color] 2.4C --> 3300mhz [color=black]-[/color] Mushkin PC3200 at 220 5-2-2-2 (cpu limited) [color=black]-[/color] BBAti 9800Pro at 430/375 [/color] [color=black]3[/color][color=gray]D[/color]M[color=black]a[/color][color=gray]r[/color]k[color=yellow]01[/color] [color=black]3[/color][color=gray]D[/color]M[color=black]a[/color][color=gray]r[/color]k[color=yellow]03[/color] 16001200 12801024

Feb 10, 2003, 11:58 PM	#29
-={420}=- DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 1,095 Rep Power: 0	Well, at least it's something. __________________ [COLOR=red]My eBay Auctions[/COLOR]