frodoin

When I first discovered your project I was very enjoyed, mainly because of the "The kX Driver is FREE and will remain FREE" I saw on the front page ("LIBRE" in french). But after some downloading I saw the the "license agreement", and thing like this:
"
NO OTHER DISTRIBUTION IS ALLOWED.

DECOMPILING, DISASSEMBLING,
OR REVERSE ENGINEERING:"
So with such license you CAN'T say your work is FREE (with the meaning of "LIBRE" in french).
I am very disapointed. I am a Linux user (with the great real FREE driver we can find on http://opensource.creative.com) and developper. I developed some very basic DSP effects and I wish I can help your great work but unfortunatly I can't.

So my question is: why don't you choose a real FREE license (like the GPL, or BSD) ?

Thank you

Vincent

PS: you'd better change your french description and replace "LIBRE" with "GRATUIT", as other user (like me) can be confused

Soeren_B

That seems to be a translation problem. The drivers are free and will remain so, but the sources are not open.

/Soeren

frodoin

Yes I think it's only a translation problem too. When I see FREE for software I immediatly think FREE for Freedom or OpenSource. In the other case, many many software are FREE (creative drivers are free too for example), so its means nothing. And in my case, I have no problems with giving money to a Free Software (OpenSource), but I will never give anything to a "proprietary" software. I don't blame your work, it's for the few I can see a technicaly good work, I only blame the license. IMHO you have nothing to win in not releasing your source, and giving your driver a real free license his the best thing you can do.

But... your are free to choose, it's your work

Nevertheless, I am curious, and I would like to know why this choice of "proprietary" software ?

Thank you

Vincent

RIV@NVX

This is the way I see it. Creative software isn't free. You paid for software (drivers) when you bought a soundcard.
kX Driver is free - you can use it for free, you don't have to pay for it.
SDK for it is OpenSource. You can create your own effects for it.

If source is released, there is always a possibility of someone to steal your code/work. I think it is best this way.

__________________
-- Vedran

frodoin

There are no free hardware. So your driver, even free, are completly useless without a creative sound card. In all case you have to pay for a creative.
I don't think you know free License when you say: "If source is released, there is always a possibility of someone to steal your code/work". In case of GPL nobody is allowed to steal your work. Your work is protected under the GPL license. If someone use your work he/she HAS TO release his own work under the GPL.
With your license your work is not better protected as anybody can do some reverse engeniering/decompiling to steal it if he wants.

But in all case I think this thread is now close. If you have some question about free license, don't hesitate to contact me. I will try to answer the best I can do.
And if one day, your work becomes free, I will be the first to be happy to help you in developing !

Thank you

Vincent

Hanz Petrov

No, this thread is not closed yet.

We would welcome more discussion of the open vs. closed-source topic here.

In fact, this issue was debated among the developers before kX went public over a year ago, and it was decided at the time that an open API would be sufficient, unless circumstances were to change.

In fact, there were several reasons for this, including the fact that windoze driver development requires a specialized hardware and software environment, which very few people would be able to successfully replicate.

Perhaps there is a better argument to be made for an opensource mixer/manager, following the example of the vast majority of opensource projects under windoze, which deal mainly with applications, and not drivers (i.e. with the open API, opensource applications could be developed for use with the kX drivers at any time).

Best regards,

/Hanz

p.s. We are very well aware of the different licensing options open to us - the use of the term "libre" in the French translation was an unfortunate oversight. Apologies.

p.p.s. Pretty much all hardware is useless without software, so the fact one typically has to pay for some form of 10kx hardware in order to make use of kX software is incidental to the debate.

frodoin

> No, this thread is not closed yet.

Ok no problems

Let me explain my first post agressiveness.
I am trying to setup a Home Cinema solution with a sound blaster (currently live but maybe audigy2) as central part.
For 5 years I only use Linux and BSD at home, and I am familliar with free software.

So I started to play with as10k1 (a emu10k1 DSP binary assembler), routing, provided by the Linux driver. I started to read the example DSP code provided with the linux driver (a dolby prologic decoder, a dolby surround, and many others) and write some little DSP effect. I am not a DSP Programmer nor a sound engineer, some in a couple of hour I only succeed writing a low pass, high pass filter and a basic white sound generation
Then came the idea of if it were possible to write a Dolby Prologic 2 dsp decoder and better, a Dolby Digital. So I started some research and found your project... quiet (?) interesting and FREE !
The FAQ speak about dsp effect... hmmm cool, maybe I could learn seeing how to write real DSP plugin.
I downloaded the zip driver, and then was very frustated... some exe, dll, nothing I can do with... I read the license and saw I misunderstood the FREE word although the french translation used the "LIBRE" word.

As I said, I am familliar with FREE project. For example I played with mplayer (http://www.mplayerhq.hu) a little. Patching it for my need, and sending patch to the developper. I think FREE license are really fabulous. It allows many people to share their experience, patch, needs. There is nothing to lose. And the probably the most important to me is that nobody is excluded. Everybody can participate if he/she wants, with any OS, and can adapts the software to specific needs. But I will not speak about free license for hundred years. As you probably knows Free Software has great success (GNU, Linux, BSD, Kde, Gnome, and many many many other...).

So I understand your choice, and as you maybe already think, a hybrid GPL (for example) / Closed Source solution is a good choice. Some parts can be released under GPL, like Mixer, "Frontend application", DSP Effect ( ), while the core can be stay closed.

I only give you my opinion, it's your work, you do what you want !
In all case, it's a great work !

Vincent

PS: I am french, and sorry for my bad english

Hanz Petrov

Vincent,

Have you looked at the kX SDK? All of the DSP effects source code can be found within, complete with sample code for setting up a workspace to develop effects.

Several people have already contributed their own DSP effects to the project, or made them available publically. For a great example of what can be done with a good understanding of the kX API, have a look at Max's Reverb_R and other skinned effects:
www3.sympatico.ca/abvj

Please look through the kX SDK sample code and documentation and let us know what you think!

Bien Ã* vous,

/Hanz

p.s. We are definitely not against sharing our knowledge with other developers, and have even collaborated with guys like Daniel Bertrand of the emu10k1 opensource project in the past...

frodoin

Hi

> Have you looked at the kX SDK?

I would like to, but unfortunatly I only found .exe file. Maybe it where a good idea to offer some more OS independent files like a .zip ?

Cordialement

Vincent

Max M.

>Maybe it where a good idea to offer some more OS independent files like a .zip ? - may be (it was so before ~ver.28). Anyway SDK is for kX Driver only and you can use it under windowz only. I can send you zipped package if you wish.

__________________

frodoin

> I can send you zipped package if you wish.

Yes, I will greatly appreciate that.
As Hanz Petrov said, "All of the DSP effects source code can be found within, complete with sample code for setting up a workspace to develop effects", so even me under Linux, I can look at these effects to see how to programs new one.
In all case I don't think binary DSP effects are OS dependent, so maybe could you propose a DSP effect only package so that every user of a Creative card can use your effect independently of the OS they use.

And as I see in other thread, source code DSP effect as very similar to the one used by as10k1.

Thank you very much

Vincent

Max M.

I see, so why all that stuff about "free does not mean FREE in english?" ;) You could just say something like that: "guys, i want do develop some dsp effects for linux driver, could you send me the sources of yours" ;) btw. as i remember *.da files (e.g. original dsp asm sources similiar to as10k1 format) don't included in sdk, so i think you still need to say "guys, i want to develo...". Also, dsp effects are not OS depended of course but they are still driver depended, and "DSP Effect" is not only asm source for dsp in kX Project but also c++ code of "control panel" (parameter tweaking, things like filter coefficients calculation etc.) for that dsp effect (except some very simple effects)... Oh, i see that i start to sound like billy... well... if dsp asm sources are something you need, then i think you need just contact that effects authors (as i know most of them have nothing against "OPEN SOFTWARE";)

(p.s. zipped kxsdk is available at http://kxdev.narod.ru/kxsdk3530.zip)

__________________

Eugene Gavrilov

so, to summarize:

'free' meens 'for free', not 'opensource'
(btw, cf. www.usbaudio.com)

the SDK is a little bit Win32-dependent [however, we are currently removing any OS-specific parts]
the SDK itself might be not sufficient for your development, because the actual microcode is stored in machine-readable form [C++ structures], not in human-readable form [DSP Assembler]

also, the opensource.creative.com Linux driver lacks some functionality required to implement most of the effects because its architecture is kernel-based [and kX architecture is mixed].

if you have any questions feel free to contact us

/Eugene

Mata Hari

frodoin, my reply here would be that you are mistaking free for being the normal anology of "free beer/freedom of speech"

First of all, you say you have to buy a creative card to use the driver, so this driver is noot free? then on what do you want to run linux? on thin air? cause that's "free" as you call it...

Next, gpl is not free... the gpl licence does not protect the original(!) developers of the software... (the MIT and BSD licence do)

You are mistaking open/closed source software for free/non free software... linux is costless, kX is costless, they are both free (of cost), but neither is free of obligations... Linux is released under GPL, and you can never use linux in a NON gpl project (this is called the virus effect of gpl) so linux is not free/libre as you call it...
kX is closed source, and protected by it's own licence, it's not free to use in projects as you like either (a bit more restrictive then gpl, wich, in this case, in my opinion, is quite good, cause the source is in very good and able hands)

both are free of cost, both are restricted in other ways (distribution/use)

frodoin

Ok well.

Max M. your are right, I was not very clear in my discussion.
The first point is that although FREE as two meanings, the french translation (LIBRE) is wrong and this confused me.
The second point is that I tried to launch the debate of why don't you choose a FREE license. I think free license is a better choice so I spoke a little about that.

Mata Hari, here is the definition of free license I use: http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
Maybe I had better talk about Open Source: http://opensource.org/docs/definition.php

In this case, kX has not a free license, but GPL, BSD are free license. So I don't care about if you prefer BSD over GPL I don't want to launch a BSD vs GPL troll.

But again you right I was not very clear.

> and you can never use linux in a NON gpl project (this is called the virus effect of gpl)

This is not true, and it's a FUD from Microsoft. If you read the GPL license http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html you will see that your are allowed to USE GPL programs in a non GPL environnement. But If you take code from GPL software for your project you have to release you project in GPL. It's normal, you take, you give.

To conclude, with your license I can't help you and you can't help me. I don't have access to source code and I am not allowed to do modification on it. So I can't develop additional effect, I can't do some portage to Linux driver, etc... I have to redevelop all by myself and you have to do the same (for example there is a Audigy2 support in the linux driver, there is a ac3 passthrough for SB live too). I think it's a waste of time.
With free software nobody is excluded....

But thank you gentlemen for your help. I will need some additional time to be more familliar with the Linux driver. But I will not hesitate to ask you question when I will need some information

"guys, i want do develop some dsp effects for linux driver, could you send me the sources of yours ?"



Vincent

Eugene Gavrilov

well, some ideas:

I cannot release the full source of the driver under GPL (or BSD). This also means, that I cannot release the SDK under GPL, because the driver itself uses SDK code and, thus, should be GPLed, too.

However, I have released the SDK under my own license agreement. The main idea of this license is: one cannot sell any part of the SDK; one should give credit to the place where the original code was taken; one can sell commercially-developed plugins or kX-compatible software provided they are not based on the original SDK microcode, which is considered propietary.

some notes:

this means that you can explore the effects and study them
this means that you can use the SDK in order to write a linux port
this means that you should take care if you plan to port the -effects- to linux, because:
* you can use the SDK effects freely provided you don't sell them
* some effects are copyright (c) Creative / E-mu, and this involves some legal problems
* you can sell your own effects if you wish

that's all

the SDK is available from our 'downloads' page
note that you will need to study the efx.h file in order to convert the binary microcode into human-readable form

/Eugene