sync multiple audigy's - possible?

JGSF · Jan 6, 2007, 10:22 PM

I was unsucessfull in connecting my audigy2's spdif out to my 1212m spdif's in (although it works perfectly the other way around).

From what I've read, I get the feeling it's an Audigy's hardware problem.

I was thinking about building a system to play multitrack recording with my mates, loading it up with 5 Audigy's (1, 2 or ZS, all together, whatever I can get).

BUT I don't know if it will be possible to sync them properly due to that spdif issue.

Many moons ago I sucessfuly connected 3 Live's thru their AD_EXT pins, but I don't know if it will work for the Audigy.

- Are the SPDIF AD_EXT pins active in Audigy cards without the external drive connected?

- Are the DAC the same in all the Audigy cards?

jiiteepee · Jan 6, 2007, 11:43 PM

IIRC, you need to bridge those pins 25&35 found from AD_EXT connector to get S/PDIF I/Os available.

(see more from http://www.hardwareheaven.com/announcement.php?f=74&a=18)

jiitee

JGSF · Jan 7, 2007, 02:42 AM

I see... thanks.

besides that, do you know if they can be linked with no problems?

Maddogg6 · Jan 7, 2007, 04:06 AM

Its not so much as a 'link' as much as its; one card (slave) acts as a sort of sub-mixer/fx send-return or as an external A/D converter for a second (master) card. AFAIK - link infers sample position synchronization, which CL cards (or is it KX??) is not capable of via SPDIF as Cubase is supposed to feature/support.

Thus, if you were to connect the slave cards SPDIF outs to the masters SPDIF in - you now have additional analog inputs of the slave card sent via SPDIF to the master card - is a common reason to do this. But you could do other ways for instance - rund SPDIF out of slave to SPDIF in on master & SPDIF IN of slave to master SPDIF out - and use slave card as a sort of effects send / return for the master card.

Did that make sense..??

JGSF · Jan 7, 2007, 04:42 PM

Yes, it does make sense... I get you...

I'm not planning to use any as a effec send/return unity, at least for now...

What I'll be trying is something like this:

card1(spdif out)-> (spdif in)card2(spdif out)-> (spdif in)cardN(spdif out)->(until I run out of cards)-> (spdif in)main_card(main_card out for monitoring).

I'll deal with dsp settings later.

I hope it doesn't get messy with sync issues.

Maddogg6 · Jan 7, 2007, 05:22 PM

Well. AFAIK - sync issues would be when using multiple cards ASIO simultaneously - like cubase is capable of ... BUT if your only using 1 ASIO device - there shouldn't be any 'sync' issues when connecting multiple cards that way. Otherwise - theres no need to tie all those cards together this way - just use multiple ASIO devices in cubase - but now there may be sync issues.. ?? I dunno - never tried this as I dont care for cubase, I use sonar most and it only allows 1 ASIO device to be used.

JGSF · Jan 7, 2007, 05:55 PM

hum, gotta check that out...

JGSF · Jan 7, 2007, 07:01 PM

By the way, I have finally managed to connect my 1212m's digital out to audigy's digital in with sucess. With 3538K I couldn't do it, the sound would be messed up, now with 3538L it works perfectly (althoug I don't understand why I have the 1212m set to 44Khz, internal clock, and any samplerate I set in kx mixer SPIDF tab works fine, 44, 48 or 96). Different DSP settings? Some change regarding spdif in the 3538L driver? I don't know...

BUT, if I enable software monitor with a spdif input, the whole asio gets messed up, i get this random beeeeeep, beeeeeeep, beeeeeeeep from spidf, line in and mic in.

Recording without soft monitoring an spdif input works fine.

Maddogg6 · Jan 7, 2007, 07:47 PM

well - SW monitoring can work with KX - but it also depends on if you need it - I usually HW monitor by sending input to physical outputs on EPILOG or Profx/KXlt AS WELL AS ASIO (Profx/ASIO or EPILOG's ASIO)
So Im thinking your hearing a sort of 'feedback'. or like a 'in phase' addition overdriving condition... ?? Im not an expert my any means...

If you *need* SW monitoring - like using a VST or DX effect - as in affecting an input - and you wish to record the output of vst/dx effects - then use SW monitor - BUT then, dont send physical input to a physical output (monitor) of epilog, send to ASIO on epilog only to avoid weird stuff from happening..
This is a common problem for many when trying to use guitar rig, and recording its output, one needs to config the KX DSP correctly to do so correctly (but figure on doubling the latency - and for me, makes such VST recording un-usable like for guitar processing as it makes it difficult to play in time)

BUT - I have also experienced *screeches* from 'digitial overdrive' on SPDIF inputs and required me to lower my SPDIF sources output volume level to reduce - but its never happened with line / mic (well, mic if theres an audible feedback as in when the mic picks up speakers sound)

Maddogg6 · Jan 7, 2007, 07:50 PM

Also - use 16/48 - the 10Kx DSP's are locked at that SR/Bitdepth - I suspect its possible that SRC conversions via SPDIF *may* cause problems.. ??

In my case - the *screech* I mentioned before happens with my outboard guitar FX processor that outputs SPDIF at 48/20 - it works, but if I send TOO big of a audio signal (20 bits = more headroom) KX gets confused, or cant accurately reduce to 16 bit.. ?? - its only my suspicians and cant prove a damn thing...

JGSF · Jan 7, 2007, 08:18 PM

Not a feedback issue for sure, I route all the line inputs to a separate mixer for HW monitoring, but I always mute the main out in it when soft monitoring (or the specific channel(s) I want to soft monitor).

Even if I don't have anything connected to the spdif and enable soft monitoring with a spdif input the same thing happens... wich leads me to believe it's not a samplerate issue.

Maddogg6 · Jan 7, 2007, 09:01 PM

With SW monitoring...
If that effected signal gets rerouted back into the ASIO into the DAW (which AFAIK - is how SW monitoring works) - to me, it s a sort of feedback - this is what I see no matter if an external mixer is used or not - its all within KX DSP.

For clarity - I call HW monitoring - in the context of KX DSP - when a physical input is routed in parallel to an epilog output - AND ASIO. In that context - any external mixers are not considered - and is an 'extension' of 'hardware' for montoring.
I call SW monitoring - the switch that can be enabled on individual tracks or busses in a DAW host - meant for 'live' auditioning and/or recording of track effects like VSTs or DX plugins.

JGSF · Jan 7, 2007, 09:39 PM

I think it's the same concept for me...

my DSP is kinda like this:

|fx 00/01 (I'm using ASIO 00/01 out)| ---------->|main mixer ch.1 (muted if necessary)

----------------
| src_input(x)||-------->sub-mixer channel x--- >|main mixer ch.2 (muted if necessary)
---------------- |------->ASIO in(x)

sub-mixer has all the inputs connected to it.
sub-mixer main out goes to a channel in the main mixer
main mixer goes to all the outputs...

When soft monitoring I simply mute the channel in the main mixer where the sub-mixer is connected to.

( Sorry, I can't take a print screen, because that DAW has a stripped XP installation, I don't even have MS paint in it...

)

Maddogg6 · Jan 7, 2007, 10:12 PM

Well - if your using *only* FXBuss 0/1 - then SW monitoring may cause the feedback I mentioned - how else would you monitor??
To avoid this problem - set up a 'monitor buss' using ASIO 0/1 - FXBuss 0/1 - then use a different ASIO in&out on that track you wish to use SW monitoring on in the DAW. edit: thats how I to do anyway..

Again - your reference to 'main mixer' and 'sub-mixer' (I assume you mean outboard mixers - right?) - are NOT the source of such feedback I mention - as it would happen with in the DAW/KX DSP before it gets that far (to the outboard mixers).

Well - anyway - if its not the case - I guess I have ran out of ideas - SW monitor works fine for me (for the most part) - other than a bad ASIO 'sync' mode (in KX ASIO control panel) setting can cause similar sounding problems for me. But its usually - seen as an 'audio dropout' in sonar - OR it appears as a constant level on a track when DAW is in stop mode. ( I then have to stop the audio engine and restart to reset this condition)

JGSF · Jan 7, 2007, 10:27 PM

No, it's those plugin mixers in the DSP....

JGSF · Jan 7, 2007, 10:41 PM

there:

http://i13.tinypic.com/2repoon.jpg

(after putting MS paint in my pen

)

I think I can't have any feedback problems like this if I mute the "Monitor" mixer.

Maddogg6 · Jan 8, 2007, 02:03 AM

ah -If I recall correctly -weird things can happen if you use mixy inputs connected directly to FXBuss lines (stems from a problem in DSP programming used in KX DSP plugins - that I *think* was mentioned to me to avoid with mixey plugins) , ... try using MX6 or MX8 instead... (you do have the latest version of Profx installed? - as opposed to the version packaged with KX)
For a test - insert a gain between FXBuss and mixy inputs and see if that makes a difference...
But yeah - it looks ok from here (no feedback conditions) - I guess you could still configure your daw to cause problems, but prolly not...

JGSF · Jan 8, 2007, 02:10 AM

Didn't know that, I'll give it a try...

tks.

JGSF · Jan 8, 2007, 06:56 PM

Indeed the new ProFX plugins cured the digital input monitoring problem...

Jan 6, 2007, 10:22 PM	#1
JGSF HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 452 Rep Power: 0	sync multiple audigy's - possible? I was unsucessfull in connecting my audigy2's spdif out to my 1212m spdif's in (although it works perfectly the other way around). From what I've read, I get the feeling it's an Audigy's hardware problem. I was thinking about building a system to play multitrack recording with my mates, loading it up with 5 Audigy's (1, 2 or ZS, all together, whatever I can get). BUT I don't know if it will be possible to sync them properly due to that spdif issue. Many moons ago I sucessfuly connected 3 Live's thru their AD_EXT pins, but I don't know if it will work for the Audigy. - Are the SPDIF AD_EXT pins active in Audigy cards without the external drive connected? - Are the DAC the same in all the Audigy cards?

Jan 6, 2007, 11:43 PM	#2
jiiteepee HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: FI Posts: 400 Rep Power: 0	IIRC, you need to bridge those pins 25&35 found from AD_EXT connector to get S/PDIF I/Os available. (see more from http://www.hardwareheaven.com/announcement.php?f=74&a=18) jiitee __________________

Jan 7, 2007, 10:12 PM	#14
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 0	Well - if your using only FXBuss 0/1 - then SW monitoring may cause the feedback I mentioned - how else would you monitor?? To avoid this problem - set up a 'monitor buss' using ASIO 0/1 - FXBuss 0/1 - then use a different ASIO in&out on that track you wish to use SW monitoring on in the DAW. edit: thats how I to do anyway.. Again - your reference to 'main mixer' and 'sub-mixer' (I assume you mean outboard mixers - right?) - are NOT the source of such feedback I mention - as it would happen with in the DAW/KX DSP before it gets that far (to the outboard mixers). Well - anyway - if its not the case - I guess I have ran out of ideas - SW monitor works fine for me (for the most part) - other than a bad ASIO 'sync' mode (in KX ASIO control panel) setting can cause similar sounding problems for me. But its usually - seen as an 'audio dropout' in sonar - OR it appears as a constant level on a track when DAW is in stop mode. ( I then have to stop the audio engine and restart to reset this condition) Last edited by Maddogg6; Jan 7, 2007 at 10:25 PM.

Jan 7, 2007, 02:42 AM	Thread Starter #3
JGSF HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 452 Rep Power: 0	I see... thanks. besides that, do you know if they can be linked with no problems?

Jan 7, 2007, 04:06 AM	#4
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 0	Its not so much as a 'link' as much as its; one card (slave) acts as a sort of sub-mixer/fx send-return or as an external A/D converter for a second (master) card. AFAIK - link infers sample position synchronization, which CL cards (or is it KX??) is not capable of via SPDIF as Cubase is supposed to feature/support. Thus, if you were to connect the slave cards SPDIF outs to the masters SPDIF in - you now have additional analog inputs of the slave card sent via SPDIF to the master card - is a common reason to do this. But you could do other ways for instance - rund SPDIF out of slave to SPDIF in on master & SPDIF IN of slave to master SPDIF out - and use slave card as a sort of effects send / return for the master card. Did that make sense..??

Jan 7, 2007, 04:42 PM	Thread Starter #5
JGSF HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 452 Rep Power: 0	Yes, it does make sense... I get you... I'm not planning to use any as a effec send/return unity, at least for now... What I'll be trying is something like this: card1(spdif out)-> (spdif in)card2(spdif out)-> (spdif in)cardN(spdif out)->(until I run out of cards)-> (spdif in)main_card(main_card out for monitoring). I'll deal with dsp settings later. I hope it doesn't get messy with sync issues.

Jan 7, 2007, 05:22 PM	#6
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 0	Well. AFAIK - sync issues would be when using multiple cards ASIO simultaneously - like cubase is capable of ... BUT if your only using 1 ASIO device - there shouldn't be any 'sync' issues when connecting multiple cards that way. Otherwise - theres no need to tie all those cards together this way - just use multiple ASIO devices in cubase - but now there may be sync issues.. ?? I dunno - never tried this as I dont care for cubase, I use sonar most and it only allows 1 ASIO device to be used.

Jan 7, 2007, 05:55 PM	Thread Starter #7
JGSF HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 452 Rep Power: 0	hum, gotta check that out...

Jan 7, 2007, 07:01 PM	Thread Starter #8
JGSF HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 452 Rep Power: 0	By the way, I have finally managed to connect my 1212m's digital out to audigy's digital in with sucess. With 3538K I couldn't do it, the sound would be messed up, now with 3538L it works perfectly (althoug I don't understand why I have the 1212m set to 44Khz, internal clock, and any samplerate I set in kx mixer SPIDF tab works fine, 44, 48 or 96). Different DSP settings? Some change regarding spdif in the 3538L driver? I don't know... BUT, if I enable software monitor with a spdif input, the whole asio gets messed up, i get this random beeeeeep, beeeeeeep, beeeeeeeep from spidf, line in and mic in. Recording without soft monitoring an spdif input works fine.

Jan 7, 2007, 07:47 PM	#9
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 0	well - SW monitoring can work with KX - but it also depends on if you need it - I usually HW monitor by sending input to physical outputs on EPILOG or Profx/KXlt AS WELL AS ASIO (Profx/ASIO or EPILOG's ASIO) So Im thinking your hearing a sort of 'feedback'. or like a 'in phase' addition overdriving condition... ?? Im not an expert my any means... If you need SW monitoring - like using a VST or DX effect - as in affecting an input - and you wish to record the output of vst/dx effects - then use SW monitor - BUT then, dont send physical input to a physical output (monitor) of epilog, send to ASIO on epilog only to avoid weird stuff from happening.. This is a common problem for many when trying to use guitar rig, and recording its output, one needs to config the KX DSP correctly to do so correctly (but figure on doubling the latency - and for me, makes such VST recording un-usable like for guitar processing as it makes it difficult to play in time) BUT - I have also experienced screeches from 'digitial overdrive' on SPDIF inputs and required me to lower my SPDIF sources output volume level to reduce - but its never happened with line / mic (well, mic if theres an audible feedback as in when the mic picks up speakers sound)

Jan 7, 2007, 07:50 PM	#10
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 0	Also - use 16/48 - the 10Kx DSP's are locked at that SR/Bitdepth - I suspect its possible that SRC conversions via SPDIF may cause problems.. ?? In my case - the screech I mentioned before happens with my outboard guitar FX processor that outputs SPDIF at 48/20 - it works, but if I send TOO big of a audio signal (20 bits = more headroom) KX gets confused, or cant accurately reduce to 16 bit.. ?? - its only my suspicians and cant prove a damn thing...

Jan 7, 2007, 08:18 PM	Thread Starter #11
JGSF HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 452 Rep Power: 0	Not a feedback issue for sure, I route all the line inputs to a separate mixer for HW monitoring, but I always mute the main out in it when soft monitoring (or the specific channel(s) I want to soft monitor). Even if I don't have anything connected to the spdif and enable soft monitoring with a spdif input the same thing happens... wich leads me to believe it's not a samplerate issue.

Jan 7, 2007, 09:01 PM	#12
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 0	With SW monitoring... If that effected signal gets rerouted back into the ASIO into the DAW (which AFAIK - is how SW monitoring works) - to me, it s a sort of feedback - this is what I see no matter if an external mixer is used or not - its all within KX DSP. For clarity - I call HW monitoring - in the context of KX DSP - when a physical input is routed in parallel to an epilog output - AND ASIO. In that context - any external mixers are not considered - and is an 'extension' of 'hardware' for montoring. I call SW monitoring - the switch that can be enabled on individual tracks or busses in a DAW host - meant for 'live' auditioning and/or recording of track effects like VSTs or DX plugins.

Jan 7, 2007, 09:39 PM	Thread Starter #13
JGSF HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 452 Rep Power: 0	I think it's the same concept for me... my DSP is kinda like this: \|fx 00/01 (I'm using ASIO 00/01 out)\| ---------->\|main mixer ch.1 (muted if necessary) ---------------- \| src_input(x)\|\|-------->sub-mixer channel x--- >\|main mixer ch.2 (muted if necessary) ---------------- \|------->ASIO in(x) sub-mixer has all the inputs connected to it. sub-mixer main out goes to a channel in the main mixer main mixer goes to all the outputs... When soft monitoring I simply mute the channel in the main mixer where the sub-mixer is connected to. ( Sorry, I can't take a print screen, because that DAW has a stripped XP installation, I don't even have MS paint in it... )

Jan 7, 2007, 10:27 PM	Thread Starter #15
JGSF HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 452 Rep Power: 0	No, it's those plugin mixers in the DSP....

Jan 7, 2007, 10:41 PM	Thread Starter #16
JGSF HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 452 Rep Power: 0	there: http://i13.tinypic.com/2repoon.jpg (after putting MS paint in my pen ) I think I can't have any feedback problems like this if I mute the "Monitor" mixer.

Jan 8, 2007, 02:03 AM	#17
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 0	ah -If I recall correctly -weird things can happen if you use mixy inputs connected directly to FXBuss lines (stems from a problem in DSP programming used in KX DSP plugins - that I think was mentioned to me to avoid with mixey plugins) , ... try using MX6 or MX8 instead... (you do have the latest version of Profx installed? - as opposed to the version packaged with KX) For a test - insert a gain between FXBuss and mixy inputs and see if that makes a difference... But yeah - it looks ok from here (no feedback conditions) - I guess you could still configure your daw to cause problems, but prolly not...

Jan 8, 2007, 02:10 AM	Thread Starter #18
JGSF HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 452 Rep Power: 0	Didn't know that, I'll give it a try... tks.

Jan 8, 2007, 06:56 PM	Thread Starter #19
JGSF HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Posts: 452 Rep Power: 0	Indeed the new ProFX plugins cured the digital input monitoring problem...