pkozerski

Hi, I'm newbie and please dont scream on me I have headphones, creative HS-600 with mic, SB live 5,1 sound card and I play a counter strike source a lot, sometimes when I playing I dont know where is my opponent, maybye on front of me or on my back, it is only stereo.... I have read this forum, for example this plugin:

http://www.angelfire.com/music6/foolou/virtual5p1.zip

x-fi sound card has:
"X-Fi CMSS-3D Headphone"
it gives 3d sound with stereo headphones.

Could someone create a config (dsp) I think for headphones good for games? maybe with this plugin, I dont know...and for the newest kx driver....because I dont know how to do that and I think a lot of people play css and other games

Maddogg6

um..
1) link is broken.
2) kX has a DSP plugin called 'Surround/HphSp' - tho not very impressive 'directional audio-wise' - but *is* better than plain ol stereo. (front vs rear is not all that apparent to me) - and *that* takes A LOT of DSP resources.
3) So, likely anything better requires more resources, like say a 10K3 DSP as X-Fi boasts..
4) kX isnt really aimed at 'gaming'.

Does the X-Fi work for this? - (ie, is the effect 'believable' ) ??

pkozerski

1. Link works fine but I can upload it on some other server:
virtual5p1.zip
2. Could Your create some config fot this? I dont know how to do it...

I dont have my own X-fi but I have read some review and it works fine....

Should I use a digital outpout for headphones? or analog front or rear?

imperia

http://imperia.kicks-ass.net/KX/dsp_setup.jpg

pkozerski

Could You give me link to "spdif in" plugin? I cannot find it...

and will be this config work for me? SB live 5.1 on Kx 3539?

Maddogg6

the SPDIF IN - is just a ProFx:SRC plugin - set to that input - then renamed.

And - the DSP config shown is a SBLive. (CT4832) - which is a 4.0 model - as long as kX works for you, that config posted should work for you too.

I never seen the Virtual5.1 plugin before - I will give a go too when I get a DVD (surround source) later today.

Most headphones - are Analog - a digital output *usually* goes to either a receiver with a digital / SPDIF input - or a 'digital' speaker system - which are a little less common than analog speakers.

Maddogg6

I made another config I think is somewhat similar to what was posted above.. but maybe easier to follow (*) - and I made comments to make note of.

(*) It looks like CENTER/LFE are mixed with the FRONT going to V5.1.. ?? looks like there are dedicated inputs on V5.1 for that - but it may sound better the way posted by Imperia..?? I have not yet tested with a surround source.

I used FXBuss because not all the SRC were labeled what they were set to.

I also labeled MX6 channels.

http://img53.imageshack.us/img53/57/v51dsprd5.jpg

Hope that helps.

pkozerski

I tested it few minutes ago and I think that it is better when I'm playing counter strike to hear where is my opponent, thanks a lot, but to listen MP3 or smething like that is a little worse I think....

Maddogg6

Ok - good to know (that its better than stereo only - for games)

You can try this too:
http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/3736/v51dspbfd3.jpg

Maddogg6

Oh - if you are 'upmixing' stereo to 5.1 in your MP3 player (like Foobar 2000 can)
theres little you can do (if the output from the MP3 player is using wave 4/5, wave 6/7 and wave 8/9 to output instead of my assumption of it set to output stereo only through wave 0/1) other than, saving this DSP config for virtual surround, and another DSP config for MP3 listening upmixed to 5.1. Then load save the DSP config appropriate for the application.
I have several DSP configs for different reasons - But, I never upmix MP3s to 5.1 - as it always seem to color the audio in a way I dis-like.

imperia

http://imperia.kicks-ass.net/KX/virtual5p1.zip

here is the plug-in.

name "virtual5.1";
copyright "Copyright (c) 2004. Foolou";
created "10/22/2004";

pkozerski

I have also test this one: http://imperia.kicks-ass.net/KX/dsp_setup.jpg

And is even better than yours in gaming, it is realy something like 5,1 in stereo headphones but sound quality isnt good


Could You change it in some way? for better sound quality?

Maddogg6

Do you mean for MP3 playback?
Or is it from the 'lower grade codec of the front compared to the rear codec - ??
Did you connect your headphones to the jack labeled REAR on the sound card - and have the SWAP FRONT <> REAR switch ENABLED (GREEN DOT) in the kX Mixer Master Page?

Well - I dont understand why its more of a convincing effect .. are you using 'surround headphones - with 2 or more stereo plugs to plug into the sound card?
(I see Imperia is using more than 1 output - front and rear - on kxlt)

Or perhaps the P1 eq's (I didnt use) are doing some phase shifting that is both hindering sound quality - but making the virutal surround effect more convincing??

But - without knowing for sure what all the SRC are set to - I can only make assumptions. And AFAIK - the ones Imperia was using - I used also (I omitted the ADC or AC97 - *probably* for MIC input for in game VOIP).

And - I imagine the settings for the P1 EQ's could have a large affect on how things sound too. Not to mention the probability of inducing a phase shift on the v5.1 sound. (Thus why I elected to omit them) But could actually make the V5.1 effect more 'convincing'..

Perhaps Imperia would be best to offer more assistance if the P1 eqs play an important role in the effectiveness in the V5.1 plugin. ?? I have doubts, otherwise, I *think* he would have posted their settings too ??

Bottom line - because 'sound' is subjective - depends on your speakers (or headphones) etc.. I feel teaching one how to make their own DSP config is more fruitful than dictating how *I* would configure *my* DSP to play a game I don't have.

So - don't be afraid to experiment - I would be more than happy to answer your questions about what plugins do what - and the affect it could have depending on where they are connected.

But heres another - that is *almost* functionally the same - but just using FXBuss instead of SRC and EPILOG instead of kxlt.

Keep in mind - I used FXBuss and Prolog - to make it easy to show what I *think* Imperias SRC plug-ins are set to.
And I prefer EPILOG because I can use my PC keyboards Multimedia keys to adjust MASTER VOLUME and MUTE.
I also wanted to demonstrate how the much the same plugins as found in the default DSP (FXBuss, Prolog, Epilog) - are 'replaced' by the ProFx alternatives (ProFx:SRC, ProFx:Kxlt, ProFx:ADC).

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/9...psetupbyp6.jpg

Maddogg6

Doh - MX6 may have very well been causing a PHASE shift problem in my previous configs... so - ok, its making a little more sense - I still need to get a surround source to test all this more than the kX speaker test applet.

I'll make another similar to my last first ones..
Do you use the microphone for in game VOIP?

heres another very close to imperias without the EQ
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8496/v51dspcap7.jpg

pkozerski

lol, thanks o lot, I tested only this one : http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/9...psetupbyp6.jpg
and it is ok for gaming, quality is also good, I will test also this new one,
I have stereo headphones and i use rear analog outpout and yes I use mic a lot,
In Team speak or ventrilo

imperia

btw. i am using this config mainly for playing world of warcraft, so ventrilo (voip) should work.
also if you have > SB Live you can try the HPhSp plug-in and enable 8 point surround with it for better virtualization. my SB Live just don't have enough resources to handle it.

here is my microphone setup:
http://imperia.kicks-ass.net/KX/dsp_setup2.jpg
you can even add Low Pass Filter between ADC and MX6 to remove some of the noise (high) sounds.

pkozerski

I used this http://imperia.kicks-ass.net/KX/dsp_setup2.jpg but beetwen ADC and MX6 i give Dynamics Processor, I think that soud from mic is better than, I saw it in this config
http://i13.tinypic.com/33tgnif.gif

pkozerski

I'm using this config at the momment:

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/9695/toxa4.jpg

It is good? can be something like this? or should I change something?

could someone comments it ?

EDIT

I tried to use Hphsp plugin on my old SB live 5.1 and i did it

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/1869/to1cb1.jpg

there is 266/256 iTram, but it works
can it be in this way? or i should do it in some different way?

Maddogg6

Well - the side chain input of Dynamics processor is connected to FXBuss 2/3 - which will cause a 'ducking' effect on the dynamic processor input if ASIO 2/3 or kX Synths are played - I don't think it is what you intend - so simply disconnect the lower 2 inputs of dynamics processor. Tho, you would probably never notice this anyway, so that recommendation is more for 'just in case' - it could seem like a really weird 'bug' if you were to do just the right things at the right time... so, I say you should change/fix that.

Well, what that is indicating is 'GPR' (iTram is the '12/128' ) - which IIRC is not calculated properly for the display at the top of the DSP screen - which is likely why it *is* working for you - otherwise - the last plug in to use up DSP resources would not translate - much less, connect to other DSP plug ins - so, I'm pretty sure you are ok there.

But the big question is...

Does it work for *you* ?? How does it sound on your hardware?
Because ultimately - thats what really matters.

Other than that - it seems your getting a hang for configuring the DSP.... now its probably just a matter of understanding what some of the plug ins do/are for - or in the case of the Dynamics Processor plug-in - what some of the inputs do.

pkozerski

I dont understand everything....My english isnt good enough, You mean something like this?
ImageShack - Hosting :: topd1.jpg
or what?
"*so simply disconnect the lower 2 inputs of dynamics processor" You mean Aps Compressor?

Yes my mistake it was gpr not itram
Sound without agc wasn't good, when I added the agc it is really better for listening Mp3 but when I'm playing Counter Strike it isn't very good, something middle

but is some way to create diffrent config with Hpsp and my SB. live will handle it?
if there is could You create something?

Maddogg6

Yes, I made a mistake too - I meant the APS Compressor.
But realize - the lower 2 pins of the Dynamics processor are ALSO side chain inputs much like the APS Compressor +.

Well - that Hpsp plugin uses a LOT of DSP resources (gprs, instr) - so, SBLives with the 10K1 DSP, will be limited to how many other plug ins can be used with the Hpsp plug in. I can make something a bit more complex - because I also have a 10K2 DSP in my A2ZS card (I have 2 cards)

But...
You dont need the side chain, so I would think you could use the APS compressor - with out the + (and save what looks like 3 gpr's)
And if you can replace the dynamics processor with another APS compressor - you save quite a bit of dsp resources. Dynamics Processor uses about 3 times as many resources as the APS compressor.
Then there is Russ' compressor too.. which is even less resources, but I would be the first to agree the Dynamics processor is the best of all the compressor plugins. But its a resource hog.

Oh - why do you have MX6 send 1 going thru a P1 EQ - and to the analog rear??
Are you using headphones - or 4 speakers when playing CS? - if using only headphones - you can save some resources by removing that P1EQ and remove the connections to the analog rear out of epilog. I dont understand why you have that connected??

pkozerski

It was Your config i only change it in some way :P, I'm using headphones and i connected it to the rear analog, I have hear that rear is beter than front, and I know i can remove it

APS COMPRESSOR + i took from here:
http://freenet-homepage.de/miskywhix...x-Settings.png
and please create some config with HPSP for me on SB. live thanks in advance

Maddogg6

I would have just used the 1 P1 EQ
Ok - but you have the side chain connected to FXBuss 2/3 - not FXBuss 4/5

I cant ADD DSP resources to a 10K1 chip - not sure what I should do?? I would say you found the limit for the SBLive and the Hpsp plugin.

Heres a problem with Hpsp - it has no LFE input - so we are forced into mixing FXBuss 9 with other FXBuss lines before the Hpsp plugin - and any mixer will also use resources.

So, Im not sure why this would work for you:
http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/1869/to1cb1.jpg
Because - your not sending it the proper signals.

Here is how I use it...
http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/9...spgamesib2.jpg

Note: kX Wave 0/1 - wont be heard, nor with kX Synths - but in CS - that should not matter - OTHER THAN - if windows uses kX Wave 0/1 for system sounds - you wont hear the system sounds.

Also note - instead of an AGC (I dont have one, the one I find is not compatable with my version of kX) - boost the mic level - and use a noise gate instead.

To adjust the noise gate...
1) adjust the Mic level in the ADC so it peaks when you talk..
2) adjust the noise gate ON to what ever background noise level you have, and up just a little more (say another 2 db).
3) adjust the OFF until you no longer have output of the noise gate when you do not talk into the mic.

I temporarily connected the Noise gate to kxLT output so I can hear it to adjust this.

If set properly - the noise gate is only outputting when you speak. but you may need to tweak it if it is turning on when you make other sounds, like clicking keys on a keyboard - as my pic shows - my noise floor is actually about -27db - but when I captured the screen - the mic picked up my key board key presses - and is showing a higher noise floor that in reality - but I still would need to adjust the NG to take this into consideration. So, its not turning on every time I press a key.

Edit: If you use a headset mic - this should be easier for you to adjust than if using a mic that sits on the table with a stand /edit

pkozerski

thanks for this I had to change kx wave in windows on 4/5 to hear something also in the game, and I dont know which one is better or worse, i tested a lot configs and i dont see much diffrence when I use Hpshp or Virtual 5.1 it is very similar

Maddogg6

Hmm - I thought Windows would need Wave 0/1 for 3-D directsound...
Maybe CS is not set up for surround??

Can you simply put peaks on the FXBuss outputs?
- reset the 'peak' register (shown at the bottom of the peak meter - so, when you minimize CS (and thus, audio from the game is likely muted) - you can see what peak level was achieved from all relevant the FXBuss outputs (0/1, 4/5, 6/7, 8/9, 10/11 & 12) - just to see what CS is actually outputting...

you *may* only notice any difference between Hpsp and V5.1 - if the game supports MORE than 5.1... ??
Will a SBLive register for Directsound of having more than 5.1 ?? even tho, kX router is configured to output the additional channels - will windows DX use them???

pkozerski

hmm, In the game (css) I can select how many speakers I have, but I always choose headphones..., there are also 2, 4, 5.1 and 7.1 systems to set, when I played with virtual 5.1 plugin and 5.1 in the game,than sound quality was worse and from this time I always set headphones....
And I dont know answers for Your's other questions

Maddogg6

1) choosing headphones in CS - will likely only output sound on FXBuss 0/1 (or what ever is set as the wondows default sound playback device)

While choosing 4,5.1 and 7.1 - should NOW output on FXBuss 4/5 for the front - and NOT FXBuss 0/1. (FXBuss 6/7 for rear, FXBuss 8/9 for Center/LFE, fXBuss 10/11 for the W/E 'Sides' - and FXBuss 12 for the rear center.

You see, kX Wave 0/1 is special - it is capable of stereo - OR multi-channel sound.
the other kX Wav X/X are not.

2) If the 'bad sound quality' you mention is over-drive distortion - lower the sound levels in the game - I am thinking the 'headphone' choice in CS *may* automatically lower the volumes in assumption that peoples headphones are connected to a SPEAKER output - which is a much stronger output than what most headphone require. - I can only guess...??

What is this 'bad sound quality' you speak of - can you describe it?

imperia

http://www.hardwareheaven.com/effects-...eadphones.html

here you can find information how to turn on "8 point surround" and about HPhSp plug-in and its connection method.

Maddogg6

yes - and something to note is this....

So officially - the Hpsp plugin is not for SBLives.

pkozerski

Yes, i know, that isn't for Sb live. but i wanted to try
when i use this config with hpsph, bass sounds terrible, they crackle or something like this, my english isnt good eneough to describe it :/ but i'm using config with virtual 5.1 and it is ok thanks for everything