A "snapshot" of DSP settings in Creative Audigy 2 drivers under Vista

mbar · Dec 6, 2007, 09:20 PM

I want to thank you on the great kX driver, latest version allowed me to install Vista and have crystal clear sound (I have Audigy 2 "classic"). When I used Creative's driver for Vista I could not listen to any music because distortion level was so high. Under XP, original Creative's driver gives normal sound quality, so I went back to XP and googled for solution (it happened to be kX Project of course).

Now I think that Creative supposedly lowered sound quality in Vista for sound cards older than X-Fi. Maybe they are setting the DSP in such way that it lowers sound quality under Vista. I can't hack their driver and find out, and as I have seen the kX DSP manager I started to wonder if it is possible to "download" all DSP settings from the card itself under Vista when there are only Creative drivers installed? Then we could know for sure that Creative cheats or not.

Is it possible at all?

Also, please take look at this snippet of my tests of Audigy 2 uder XP and Vista. There is something fishy going on:

Windows XP:
RightMark Audio Analyzer test report

Testing device SB Audigy 2 Audio [D000] Sampling mode 16-bit, 48 kHz Interface DirectSound Testing chain External loopback (line-out - line-in) RMAA Version 6.0.6 20 Hz - 20 kHz filter ON Normalize amplitude ON Level change -0.2 dB / -0.2 dB Mono mode OFF Calibration singal, Hz 1000 Polarity inverted/inverted

Summary

Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB

+0.00, -0.00

Excellent

Noise level, dB (A)

-101.5

Excellent

Dynamic range, dB (A)

95.5

Excellent

THD, %

0.0020

Excellent

THD + Noise, dB (A)

-90.2

Very good

IMD + Noise, %

0.0040

Excellent

Stereo crosstalk, dB

-101.9

Excellent

IMD at 10 kHz, %

0.0044

Excellent

General performance

Excellent

Windows Vista:
RightMark Audio Analyzer test report

Testing device Gło�niki 48 (Creative SB Audigy 2 (WDM)) Sampling mode 16-bit, 48 kHz Interface DirectSound Testing chain External loopback (line-out - line-in) RMAA Version 6.0.6 20 Hz - 20 kHz filter ON Normalize amplitude ON Level change -6.3 dB / -19.8 dB Mono mode OFF Calibration singal, Hz 1000 Polarity inverted/inverted

Summary

Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB

+5.51, -17.62

Very poor

Noise level, dB (A)

-103.3

Excellent

Dynamic range, dB (A)

88.8

Good

THD, %

0.013

Good

THD + Noise, dB (A)

-72.8

Average

IMD + Noise, %

0.014

Very good

Stereo crosstalk, dB

-27.0

Very poor

IMD at 10 kHz, %

0.018

Very good

General performance

Good

Max M. · Dec 7, 2007, 03:49 AM

For me your test results under Vista look more like a driver bug and/or incorrect settings, not like something made supposedly.

---
Well, theoreticaly it is possible to snapshot everything. However i really doubt if you're willing to waste your next half of year for disassembling and reviewing a megs of logs just to find out if Creative is cheating or not... Doh! Would not it be more humane to just buy a card wittingly w/o "cheating"?
(The DSP you can see in kX DSP is only a small part of the 'Audigy 2' chipset - there're tons and tons of other modules, configuration registers, initialization sequences etc. etc.).

mbar · Dec 7, 2007, 06:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max M.

Would not it be more humane to just buy a card wittingly w/o "cheating"?

Yeah, I'll never again buy any Creative's card, that I know.
My next card is going to be Audiotrak Prodigy HD2, but thanks to kX driver I saved almost 100 Euro for now (and yeah, I'm going to donate some of that to the kX Project). I'm afraid that my headphones (Sennheiser HD 495) won't allow me to hear a difference after installing Audiotrak Prodigy HD2

Maddogg6 · Dec 7, 2007, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbar

Yeah, I'll never again buy any Creative's card, that I know.
My next card is going to be Audiotrak Prodigy HD2...

I dunno, Isn't that like saying ... 'no more 54' Fords for me... nothing but new Lincolns from now on' ?? Lets face it, the A2 when you bought it, likely was the only *real* option, turtle beach wasn't all that great either, And id bet a years salary that the prodigy didnt exist yet.

I also wonder how reliable/accurate RightMark is on Vista, with all the sound API changes and what not... ??

mbar · Dec 9, 2007, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

Lets face it, the A2 when you bought it, likely was the only *real* option

That's right and I was a happy Creative customer until Vista hit. Creative's drivers for Vista if aren't sabotaged on purpose then they are really buggy. And this seems to me that Creative employed some sort of "forced obsolency" for cards older than X-Fi and I don't like that.
kX drivers FTW

Russ · Dec 9, 2007, 08:46 AM

I think they would more likely just not make any drivers for Vista for these cards, then intentionally create buggy ones to try and coerce people to upgrade.

When I think about "Forced Obsolescence", DRM comes to mind (but that is a discussion for another forum).

Maddogg6 · Dec 9, 2007, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbar

And this seems to me that Creative employed some sort of "forced obsolency" for cards older than X-Fi and I don't like that.

Yeah, I guess, I'm de-sensitized to this fact by now... I remember my grandma had this blender, stainless steel, was like 40 years old before the blades broke.... heh, I cant imagine any product made now that would last so long for the relative low cost... I must be a bit jaded.... but, volunteering OS upgrades is what makes their (what I always called it..) 'planned obsolescence' possible. (not so much forced, you volunteered the OS 'upgrade')

Quote:

DRM comes to mind (but that is a discussion for another forum).

Yes, now that would be, imho, more 'forced'... as some (if not all) DRM can include expiration dates..

Quote:

I think they would more likely just not make any drivers for Vista for these cards, then intentionally create buggy ones to try and coerce people to upgrade.

agreed... my best guess is, vista is still beta, maybe when SP2 comes out..... maybe... but XP is supposed to be supported till 2012... so, maybe I would upgrade then... maybe not, who knows maybe Linux will have matured more by then...

Russ · Dec 9, 2007, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maddogg6

Yes, now that would be, imho, more 'forced'... as some (if not all) DRM can include expiration dates..

That is not exactly what I meant. I was thinking more along the lines of things to come, like perfectly good CD/DVD players not being able to play a CD/DVD because it was built before DRM, forcing you to buy the so-called latest and greatest, etc. Or you not being able to use your SPDIF output of your sound card (to connect to your home theater system or whatever, etc), when playing certain content because they simply do not trust you (to not record it and pirate it, etc). DRM is half the reason for all the audio (thus audio driver) changes in Vista. In any case, this is OT and (again) probably better discussed in another forum.

Maddogg6 · Dec 9, 2007, 09:36 AM

Quote:

I was thinking more along the lines of things to come, like perfectly good CD/DVD players not being able to play a CD/DVD because it was built before DRM, forcing you to buy the so-called latest and greatest, etc

I would still call that 'volunteered' - or 'planned' more so than 'forced'... your old CD's will still work in the old player..the 'planned' part is the life expectancy of the player...and thus, the old CD's become useless. Unless they were smart enough to figure out how to make a 'FAIR USE' copy...of course. (not all CD buyers speak 'pirate-ese' is what I am saying here)

Quote:

In any case, this is OT and (again) probably better discussed in another forum.

eh... VISTA DRM causing driver breaking issues - is sorta the topic... no? eh your probably right... I'll stop now...

Russ · Dec 9, 2007, 10:27 AM

"planned" and "forced" mean the same thing to me, when it is someone's else plan (that strays far away from my plans)

.

Maddogg6 · Dec 9, 2007, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

"planned" and "forced" mean the same thing to me, when it is someone's else plan (that strays far away from my plans)

.

lol

Dec 6, 2007, 09:20 PM	#1
mbar DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 3 Rep Power: 0	A "snapshot" of DSP settings in Creative Audigy 2 drivers under Vista I want to thank you on the great kX driver, latest version allowed me to install Vista and have crystal clear sound (I have Audigy 2 "classic"). When I used Creative's driver for Vista I could not listen to any music because distortion level was so high. Under XP, original Creative's driver gives normal sound quality, so I went back to XP and googled for solution (it happened to be kX Project of course). Now I think that Creative supposedly lowered sound quality in Vista for sound cards older than X-Fi. Maybe they are setting the DSP in such way that it lowers sound quality under Vista. I can't hack their driver and find out, and as I have seen the kX DSP manager I started to wonder if it is possible to "download" all DSP settings from the card itself under Vista when there are only Creative drivers installed? Then we could know for sure that Creative cheats or not. Is it possible at all? Also, please take look at this snippet of my tests of Audigy 2 uder XP and Vista. There is something fishy going on: Windows XP: RightMark Audio Analyzer test report Testing device SB Audigy 2 Audio [D000] Sampling mode 16-bit, 48 kHz Interface DirectSound Testing chain External loopback (line-out - line-in) RMAA Version 6.0.6 20 Hz - 20 kHz filter ON Normalize amplitude ON Level change -0.2 dB / -0.2 dB Mono mode OFF Calibration singal, Hz 1000 Polarity inverted/inverted Summary Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB +0.00, -0.00 Excellent Noise level, dB (A) -101.5 Excellent Dynamic range, dB (A) 95.5 Excellent THD, % 0.0020 Excellent THD + Noise, dB (A) -90.2 Very good IMD + Noise, % 0.0040 Excellent Stereo crosstalk, dB -101.9 Excellent IMD at 10 kHz, % 0.0044 Excellent General performance Excellent Windows Vista: RightMark Audio Analyzer test report Testing device Gło�niki 48 (Creative SB Audigy 2 (WDM)) Sampling mode 16-bit, 48 kHz Interface DirectSound Testing chain External loopback (line-out - line-in) RMAA Version 6.0.6 20 Hz - 20 kHz filter ON Normalize amplitude ON Level change -6.3 dB / -19.8 dB Mono mode OFF Calibration singal, Hz 1000 Polarity inverted/inverted Summary Frequency response (from 40 Hz to 15 kHz), dB +5.51, -17.62 Very poor Noise level, dB (A) -103.3 Excellent Dynamic range, dB (A) 88.8 Good THD, % 0.013 Good THD + Noise, dB (A) -72.8 Average IMD + Noise, % 0.014 Very good Stereo crosstalk, dB -27.0 Very poor IMD at 10 kHz, % 0.018 Very good General performance Good

Dec 7, 2007, 03:49 AM	#2
Max M. h/h member-shmember Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Evil Empire Posts: 2,606 Rep Power: 66	For me your test results under Vista look more like a driver bug and/or incorrect settings, not like something made supposedly. --- Well, theoreticaly it is possible to snapshot everything. However i really doubt if you're willing to waste your next half of year for disassembling and reviewing a megs of logs just to find out if Creative is cheating or not... Doh! Would not it be more humane to just buy a card wittingly w/o "cheating"? (The DSP you can see in kX DSP is only a small part of the 'Audigy 2' chipset - there're tons and tons of other modules, configuration registers, initialization sequences etc. etc.).

Dec 9, 2007, 08:46 AM	#6
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,507 Rep Power: 61	I think they would more likely just not make any drivers for Vista for these cards, then intentionally create buggy ones to try and coerce people to upgrade. When I think about "Forced Obsolescence", DRM comes to mind (but that is a discussion for another forum).

Dec 9, 2007, 10:27 AM	#10
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,507 Rep Power: 61	"planned" and "forced" mean the same thing to me, when it is someone's else plan (that strays far away from my plans) .