CT-4830 or SB0220 ???

Slippers

HoWdY!!

I picked up a CT-4830 card recently, but haven't tried it as I've been using the SB0220.

I've been noticing that the SB0220 has drop outs after I get over 5 voices on a channel, like strings or organ or something.

Would the CT-4830 help with this drop out problem?

Also, is it possible to run both cards at the same time and would that help the voice drop outs?

How would I hook them together and what would the benefits be of using both?

Thankx
Dennis

Doug W

Dennis,

I don't know the answer to the drop out problems, not very up on MIDI, but on the question of the benefits of hooking 2 cards together:

1. Added analog inputs (only an advantage if you need or just want them).
2. Keeps you out of trouble.

How to hook them together:
A-kX an Introduction

Slippers

HoWdY!!

Thankx for your reply Doug ...

I was really looking for an answer on the output question rather than the input question.
The setup I have is:
--- 2 mics (Sax & Vocals) into a small 5 channel Behringer mixer then into Line-In port
--- A USB M-Audio Synth Controller conncected using MidiOx.
--- WinAmp playing the midi of the song to record to

I am wondering if I use one card for the input and one card for the output, would that add more "voice-width" to my voice drop out probs.
I don't think I have 64 voices going at once so I don't understand this problem.

If I send the Input to the SB0220 and send the output to the CT-4830, wouldn't that allow for a larger number of voices as each card isn't
working doing both? Unless this card can't do 64 voices that is.

Also ... what about playing midi through WinAmp and recording a vocal track at the same time. When I tried this on the SB0220 I got a lot of crackles and snaps and stutters. Would the two card installation help these probs?

I installed the CT-4830 and took out the SB0220 and I think I've noticed that the 4830 is a little more responsive. But still the voice drop outs ... especially with about 6 voices near the lower end audio.

Now that I've gotten a better grasp on the workings of these drivers, I am amazed at how good they are and how much they can do!

Thankx for you help!
Dennis

Maddogg6

About MIDI in general.... only in a DAW environment, that I have found, will support multiple MIDI ports in a midi file - like in Winamp and WMP for instance -
if anything (I recall having winamp crash at one time with a midi file that had multiple midi ports assigned in it) - winamp, will 'merge' all midi ports with same channels - to the same port as assigned as the MIDI port to use in winamp preferences - this is best case scenario with winamp, assuming it no longer crashes.

But, in a DAW environment - multiple MIDI ports are very well supported , and thus, you gain all the additional polyphony and timbres that is afforded with additional midi ports.
I personally have used 5 MIDI ports in one sequence / song in Sonar with no problems at all.

Now about the 'note stealing' as you describe and is more commonly known as... you can possibly improve your situation by changing the kX Synth compatibility settings > Legacy Decay/Release. And/Or - Use sound fonts that dont have so many layers active for One note and one velocity at a time - some soundfonts, usually really big ones - to improve its fidelity - the patch designer may (commonly) add more layers to a patch - which will automatically take away from any MIDI devices 'max polyphony' - in that, a patch with 5 active layers, and say the device has 64 oscillators - the max perceived polyphony = 64/5 instead of 64.

I hope all that made sense. If not, ask I will try to clarify.

Slippers

HoWdY!!

Thankx for the reply Maddog

OK .. I use Sonar PE 6 as my DAW ... I use ASIO recording not WMP ... I've not had Winamp crash it's been pretty good actually ...
As far as I understand, I really am not using any extra midi ports because the MidiOx takes the USB midi input and outputs it through the main outputs as audio using the kX Synth.

Ya .. when I do Big Band charts I typically have 14-18 Midi Ports (channels) going at once in Sonar. The sound fonts work great there. It's only the strings and big organ sounds on the lower end of the scale that tend to have the "Note Stealing" that you speak of here.

OK .. I just went in and changed that legacy setting.
What about the buffers settings? Should I add or subtract buffers?
They are set at 2 right now. Do I want/need more?
The playback size is 8.70msec. Do I need more or less there?
I set the recording buffer size to 32768. I have a gig RAM so this should work I think. Or will it?
What is GSIF buffer? I set that to 512 samples. Is this right?

Man .. there's so many things to learn about this! But from what I've learned so far, it's well worth it!

What I would also enjoy is a little "classroom" on how to build soundfont collections. How to take the most used and favorite sounds and put them in one collection to use as little resources as possible. If I usually only use 10-12 instruments in 90% of my work, why not just have those loaded instead of the whole slew of others I never use?

I think I understand for the most part what you're saying. I'm using a soundfont package called Magic SMG-180 that has some amazing sounds for these instruments. I can see what you mean that the better sounds would take up more layers ... especially the strings and big organ sounds and that.


Just one more quick question .. whatever happened to the DSP exchange that was buzzing around here a while ago?

Thankx! I've come a long way since back a year ago when I was pulling hair out trying to understand the DSP (grin)
You and the others help here has been a great part of that improvement!
Dennis

Maddogg6

Hmm - why are you using midi ox with kX synths in sonar - I use kX synths directly. What USB midi interface are you using?

Also - dont confuse kX Synths with Software synths. kX Synths are *not* affected by those buffer settings AFAIK - nor the ASIO latency.
Until you record them with ASIO - and there are several ways you may go about converting those MIDI tracks into wav...
1 way is to record them all mixed, another way is to record each midi track into an invidual and discrete audio track. The first way relys very little on ASIO, where the second way *could* be done 8 tracks at a time (8 midi tracks playing - recorded onto 8 audio tracks in one shot) - or done one at a time and again, less ASIO consequences when recording - as, you can imagine recording 8 stereo tracks at once compared to 1 stereo track - equates to more potential problems, like ASIO crackling.


I did this as well - but theres no 'great' soundfont editing tool that I have found, CL Vienna works, but it is buggy - so make backups frequently. AWave is ok, but for the cost, imho, it isnt worth it for what it does for me - and *was* so frequently updated - I just, started moving toward soft synths to avoid the majority of the problems.

Editing soundfonts imho are almost a must for a few *other* reasons - like deactivating layers when note stealing is a problem. (copy to a new patch or instrument, and remove layers) adding null samples to the beginning of sample/waves to reduce the impact of the known 10kX/20kX problem with 'impotent' attacks.
But - its not for the squeamish - theres quite a learning curve, and unfortunately I dont have the ambition to write a kX specific tutorial on it as it can get complicated, and given the buggy nature of the most famous freeware editor.... meh...

Maddogg6

MidiOx isnt a midi port you must be referring to MIDIYoke - and theres 8 ports IIRC. And it would not suprise me that those *software* midi emulation ports will introduce additonal layers of problems at times - I avoid using midiyoke at all cost, as for software synths - I notice a significant delay (press key to hear sound) compared to direct midi input in a track in sonar.

Slippers

HoWdY!

Thankx again for your reply Maddog!

I perform for Senior Retirement Homes, and take my computer and set it up and play my sax, sing and play keyboard.
I use WinAmp to play the midi songs using the soundfonts and excellent reverb, delay and compression offered by kX addons.
The M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 Controller has no sound output so I need a synth to create the sounds as I play.
MidiOx does a nice job of taking the midi input from the Pro 88 and using the soundfonts, pumping it out as audio through main outs.
I have my vocal mic and sax mic plugged into a small audio mixer and then into Line-IN on my sound card.
From the REAR outs (cleaner than fronts) I plug into a stereo power amp and pump the dulcett tones out through a center 300W - 12" woofer + 15" horn plus 2 X 250W mid and high boxes.
This way I get center, left and right wide separation.
I take the front outs and using my computer desktop speaker amp, plug a 250W - 3 way car speakers box as a monitor.
It sounds pretty good! It's a shoe-string budget setup, but this is for fun not for profession.
When I want to record my music, it's a different setup but not much.
I also have a Peavey StudioMix board that I can operate the sliders in Sonar on 8 channels at a time. It works great for jogging the tracks and everything that I have to do with my mouse. Especially good for automation of the tracks although I haven't done a lot of that yet.

OK ... when I record, I use the ASIO for my recording. It has been pretty good although the volume levels are hard to control as you're playing. I'm getting the hang of it. Not quite expert yet though (wince)

When I record, I use Sonar and I have to record each midi channel to an audio channel. Then afterwards, Sonar can save each track individually or all in one. I like having the individual tracks because then it's a lot better to separate and pan and eq each track.

OK .. I found the same things out when I tried it too. I have tried the Cakewalk VSTi thingies but I wasn't as impressed with the sound as with the soundfonts. I got my hands on a thing called SampleTank but I haven't tried it yet.

[/quote]

I understand and agree. I started to try and work with Vienna and a few others, but it gave me a headache so I put it away until I'm in the mood for a gruelling brain-wrenching workout (grin)

Thankx for your reply.
Your information and knowledgeable opinions are most helpful!

Dennis

Maddogg6

Ahhh - ok, so you were talking about 2 different situations - recording and live performance.

Which obviously requires 2 very different plans off attack...

But winamp, due to its limited midi port support - makes using multiple midi devices impossible. While for recording in Sonar - you can.

Tho, in your situation, I would find a way to use Sonar for live - or find another way to play midi live - with midi accompaniment.
Actually - I would forgo the keyboard for live performance all together and just render everything midi to wave/mp3 - and use something like an ipod, or maybe a CD player for live performance. The Sax and singing should be 'entertaining' enough I would think and your back will love the idea as well.

Slippers

HoWdY!!

Very astute observation my good man!

Yes ... I use two different DSP's too!
ONE is just to get the sound in and then out.
TWO is to get the sound in and out and recorded!
Winamp works great for ONE
Sonar is perfect for TWO

Exaclty ... unless I In/Out/Thru any extra synths through the Pro 88 and USB into the computer ... but at that point I would have to be looking for more professional equipment.
This setup I have now is good for the amateur level I'm at now.

Well ... I thought about that, but I liked the ease that I can change songs in WinAmp. I sometimes jump down the play list and mix things up depending on the crowd and how it feels.
I find Sonar to be a little rigid and cumbersome as far as a play list goes.


heh heh heh .. and I just built a 35 lb. - 3/4" plywood box for a 50 lb. keyboard! Wheels handles and lock clasps. I could dance on this thing and it wouldn't harm it! Stairs are a problem though but in Senior Homes they have elevators.
I use the case for a base on my stand for the keyboard and I would feel naked if I didn't have my keys there too.
I play some classical piano pieces as well so they don't always have a piano there to play. The piano soundfonts are amazing on this package I use. Steinway Grand sounds awesome!!
I also built a nice 2'X4' - 4 wheel flatbed cart with 4 good rubber wheels with bearings. The carting now isn't as bad as it was without this cart and it sure DOES help the back!!!


Thankx for the replies! Good ideas!

Dennis