MBox 2 Pro and KX

Caithleann · Jul 28, 2008, 09:18 AM

Hello all. I have searched this forum and found only one (unrelated) reference to MBox, so here goes.

I have an MBox 2 Pro as well as the Creative LiveWare 5.1 sound card in my system. I would like to run MIDI files but the MBox has no onboard synth like the LiveWare card. I have the 148 MB FluidR3 General Midi soundfont loaded which in my opinion is the best GM soundfont ever made.

How do I route the output generated by the MIDI files via KX to the MBox so I can hear the results?

Thanks for helping

**dj_stick** · Jul 28, 2008, 09:23 AM

ok so you want the sound generated by the kX synths to be heard through the MBox 2 pro?

you'll need to connect the output of your kX card to the line input on your mbox (you'll need a 3.5 stereo jack to 2x mono 6.5jack cable, or equivalent)

Caithleann · Jul 28, 2008, 01:04 PM

Thanks for your reply, Chris. I was affraid that would be the only option

QuickTime, the player from Apple also has (2) GM soundbanks on board, and they play via the firewire cable on the MBox 2 Pro. That means that somehow a direct route exists from the software to the digidesign hardware.

Is there no way that the data from the Soundfonts can be routed to the MBox internally via the Firewire Connection?

**dj_stick** · Jul 28, 2008, 01:37 PM

10kX cards use a hardware midi synth - so they go straight out of your soundcard

quicktime (and other apps) use a software midi synth, which is before the hardware layer/drivers (and hence interface independent) allowing you to choose the destination sound card

you can, however, use a sampler that can load .sf2 files and playback midi regions....
unfortunately that's you're only option

octave · Jul 28, 2008, 02:52 PM

Maybe what Caithleann means is something like this

http://www.hardwareheaven.com/audio-ge...soundcard.html

monitoring through a program might also be possible...

Caithleann · Jul 28, 2008, 06:04 PM

DJ_Stick, Thanks for your input. Your first option was the better of the two; My specific purpose is to avoid a ton of extra hardware in the audio path. Having to use the outputs to go to the input of another audio card is like trying to get audio from a loudspeaker and using that as the input to an ampliier. In fact, that is exactly what it is, haha... A low impedance output to high impedance input plus a ton of harmonic distortion. Very inefficient signal transfer. But Octave seems to have found what I need.

This looks promising Octave, I will take a closer look at it when I get back from College.
Thanks!

octave · Jul 29, 2008, 01:03 AM

Quote:

My specific purpose is to avoid a ton of extra hardware in the audio path. Having to use the outputs to go to the input of another audio card is like trying to get audio from a loudspeaker and using that as the input to an ampliier. In fact, that is exactly what it is, haha... A low impedance output to high impedance input plus a ton of harmonic distortion. Very inefficient signal transfer.

I hope the solution will work for you, however you are saying quite strange things. Can you imagine a short piece of a cable which weights a ton?? That's not much of an amplifier on the line output either, I think? And another ton of harmonic distortion? Must have been too heavy for my ears

Is this actually any different than connecting any other audio hardware??

I might be sarcastic, but your answer sounded quite judgemental. Fluid GM through this synth won't really be some pristine quality anyway (however nice).

Caithleann · Jul 29, 2008, 01:29 AM

Octave, from your comments above I understand that English is not your native language. I did not literally mean a ton as in "one hundred thousand kilograms". It is just an expression that means "a lot of" or even "any" as in my case. I wanted to avoid having to add ANY hardware between the signal of the Creative Sound card and the MBox 2 Pro. Am I making myself clearer for you with this?

If you know of a better implementation of the GM Sound Font please share. Thanks!

octave · Jul 29, 2008, 02:03 PM

I told you I had been sarcastic. I'm offended a ton by your suggestion to the contrary.

**dj_stick** · Jul 29, 2008, 02:05 PM

the only hardware between the CL card and the Digi will be the cable - impedence will be the same, the only thing is the level might be slightly lower (-10dBv as opposed to +4dBu)

Max M. · Jul 29, 2008, 02:14 PM

>I wanted to avoid having to add ANY hardware between the signal of the Creative Sound card and the MBox 2 Pro.

SPDIF cable (this is what i'd suggest)? It is not quite a hardware. Although not a software too

Caithleann · Jul 29, 2008, 05:22 PM

SPDIF? Please explain if you don't mind?

Octave, Sarcasm in a forum? That's pretty daring as it lacks a ton of body language.
Since you don't think Fluid GM is the best GM sound font out there, which one do you use that you deem better?

DJ_Stick, you are right that it is only a cable, but even a cable is harware. And hardware introduces artifacts and so on. I try to avoid that if at all possible.

Maddogg6 · Jul 29, 2008, 05:55 PM

Quote:

SPDIF? Please explain if you don't mind?

SPDIF = Digital Input / Output.
S/PDIF (Sony/Phillips Digital InterFace)
Its the best, universal way to transfer audio over distance (not susceptible to noise like analog cables are) or from one card/audio interface to another.
It can be coax or optical

If you connect one card to another via spdif - is the cleanest audio and least latency way to do it.

Any software that transfers audio from one cards input to another cards out put will introduce additional delay (aka latency) most people desire to keep latency to a minimum especially for DAW applications.

1 digital/spdif connection carries stereo information unless its AC3 encoded (like on a DVD, and software to encode also adds (~200ms if I recall correctly) latency btw, while it exists, AC3 is considered a 'lossy' compression)

Quote:

And hardware introduces artifacts and so on. I try to avoid that if at all possible.

SPDIF (Digital) avoids much of these problems.

And cable=hardware would be debated until the cows come home, but it is a 'hardware connection' - true. SPDIF was designed to address the problems common with analog audio / cable loss. Not to mention avoiding the double conversion (losses) of Digital > Analog > Digital in this case.

It really is the best way to address your circumstances as I understand them.

octave · Jul 29, 2008, 07:16 PM

I haven't been much into GM, but SGM 2 has some nice sounds. I remember Fluid as having a kind of old-radio sound (might be nice?). I also guess that kX synth would not be perfect under very close scrutiny...

Shan's Soundfont Homepage
Project5.com - SFZ Player
A long samplers comparison here:
MAZ Sound Tools - VSampler, Sounds, MindCandy, Demos for PC, Amiga, C64, Freax
but also
Sampler anti-aliasing and pitch shifting comparison

PhazeC · Jul 31, 2008, 09:26 PM

Cathleann, i just read the specification of MBOX2 Pro, and i see it's not an easy trip: can't find Direct Monitoring or zero latency there... I see two choices here:
1. Live synth -> ASIO rec (in kX DSP)-> ASIO out to MBOX (with a simple software, eg. VAC, the Virtual Audio Cable - you can search it and download a trial...)
2. Live synth -> SPDIF out (real cable)-> MBOX SPDIF in -> a simple software to route MBOX's SPDIF in to it's own output in PC.

I don't know what can VAC do with ASIO4All, but the latter made wonders with a laptop's ugly VIA "HD" out (after some tweaking it's safe latency was about 20ms if CPU usage was less than 50-60%...)

Oh, or you can get a free VST-rack standalone stuff (there's more than we need), and use it fully bypassed as an ASIO "cable"

If your real trouble is with wiring in kX DSP, ask here or somewhere...

Jul 28, 2008, 09:18 AM	#1
Caithleann HardwareHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: California USA Posts: 47 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	MBox 2 Pro and KX Hello all. I have searched this forum and found only one (unrelated) reference to MBox, so here goes. I have an MBox 2 Pro as well as the Creative LiveWare 5.1 sound card in my system. I would like to run MIDI files but the MBox has no onboard synth like the LiveWare card. I have the 148 MB FluidR3 General Midi soundfont loaded which in my opinion is the best GM soundfont ever made. How do I route the output generated by the MIDI files via KX to the MBox so I can hear the results? Thanks for helping __________________ One cannot lie unless one knows the truth!

Jul 28, 2008, 01:04 PM	Thread Starter #3
Caithleann HardwareHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: California USA Posts: 47 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	Thanks for your reply, Chris. I was affraid that would be the only option QuickTime, the player from Apple also has (2) GM soundbanks on board, and they play via the firewire cable on the MBox 2 Pro. That means that somehow a direct route exists from the software to the digidesign hardware. Is there no way that the data from the Soundfonts can be routed to the MBox internally via the Firewire Connection? __________________ One cannot lie unless one knows the truth!

Jul 28, 2008, 02:52 PM	#5
octave DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 39 Rep Power: 0	Maybe what Caithleann means is something like this http://www.hardwareheaven.com/audio-ge...soundcard.html monitoring through a program might also be possible... Last edited by octave; Jul 28, 2008 at 03:03 PM. Reason: blah blah windows mixer posting in hurry blah

Jul 28, 2008, 06:04 PM	Thread Starter #6
Caithleann HardwareHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: California USA Posts: 47 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	DJ_Stick, Thanks for your input. Your first option was the better of the two; My specific purpose is to avoid a ton of extra hardware in the audio path. Having to use the outputs to go to the input of another audio card is like trying to get audio from a loudspeaker and using that as the input to an ampliier. In fact, that is exactly what it is, haha... A low impedance output to high impedance input plus a ton of harmonic distortion. Very inefficient signal transfer. But Octave seems to have found what I need. This looks promising Octave, I will take a closer look at it when I get back from College. Thanks! __________________ One cannot lie unless one knows the truth!

Jul 29, 2008, 01:29 AM	Thread Starter #8
Caithleann HardwareHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: California USA Posts: 47 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	Octave, from your comments above I understand that English is not your native language. I did not literally mean a ton as in "one hundred thousand kilograms". It is just an expression that means "a lot of" or even "any" as in my case. I wanted to avoid having to add ANY hardware between the signal of the Creative Sound card and the MBox 2 Pro. Am I making myself clearer for you with this? If you know of a better implementation of the GM Sound Font please share. Thanks! __________________ One cannot lie unless one knows the truth! Last edited by Caithleann; Jul 29, 2008 at 01:47 AM.

Jul 29, 2008, 02:03 PM	#9
octave DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 39 Rep Power: 0	I told you I had been sarcastic. I'm offended a ton by your suggestion to the contrary.

Jul 29, 2008, 02:14 PM	#11
Max M. h/h member-shmember Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Evil Empire Posts: 2,639 Rep Power: 69	>I wanted to avoid having to add ANY hardware between the signal of the Creative Sound card and the MBox 2 Pro. SPDIF cable (this is what i'd suggest)? It is not quite a hardware. Although not a software too __________________

Jul 29, 2008, 05:22 PM	Thread Starter #12
Caithleann HardwareHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: California USA Posts: 47 Rep Power: 0 System Specs	SPDIF? Please explain if you don't mind? Octave, Sarcasm in a forum? That's pretty daring as it lacks a ton of body language. Since you don't think Fluid GM is the best GM sound font out there, which one do you use that you deem better? DJ_Stick, you are right that it is only a cable, but even a cable is harware. And hardware introduces artifacts and so on. I try to avoid that if at all possible. __________________ One cannot lie unless one knows the truth!

Jul 29, 2008, 07:16 PM	#14
octave DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 39 Rep Power: 0	I haven't been much into GM, but SGM 2 has some nice sounds. I remember Fluid as having a kind of old-radio sound (might be nice?). I also guess that kX synth would not be perfect under very close scrutiny... Shan's Soundfont Homepage Project5.com - SFZ Player A long samplers comparison here: MAZ Sound Tools - VSampler, Sounds, MindCandy, Demos for PC, Amiga, C64, Freax but also Sampler anti-aliasing and pitch shifting comparison

Jul 31, 2008, 09:26 PM	#15
PhazeC DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 3 Rep Power: 0	Cathleann, i just read the specification of MBOX2 Pro, and i see it's not an easy trip: can't find Direct Monitoring or zero latency there... I see two choices here: 1. Live synth -> ASIO rec (in kX DSP)-> ASIO out to MBOX (with a simple software, eg. VAC, the Virtual Audio Cable - you can search it and download a trial...) 2. Live synth -> SPDIF out (real cable)-> MBOX SPDIF in -> a simple software to route MBOX's SPDIF in to it's own output in PC. I don't know what can VAC do with ASIO4All, but the latter made wonders with a laptop's ugly VIA "HD" out (after some tweaking it's safe latency was about 20ms if CPU usage was less than 50-60%...) Oh, or you can get a free VST-rack standalone stuff (there's more than we need), and use it fully bypassed as an ASIO "cable" If your real trouble is with wiring in kX DSP, ask here or somewhere...