seskanda

I'm fed up with the crackling & noise from my Audigy 2 ZS, this happens with CL or kX drivers. I recall my Live! Value made loud, popping noises, too. I've tried everything to address this issue (different speakers, lowering Hardware Accleration, you name it.), until i put it into my dad's PC (Dell Dimension E310) and it STILL crackled. At that point, i was almost certain the card was the problem, since that PC has an Intel 915 chipset compared to the VIA Apollo PT880 Pro/Ultra & VIA VT8237S of my PC. Once i installed the Live! 24-bit (SB0410), and it made NO crackling/popping whatsover, that was the "smoking gun" so to speak.

Now, the Live! 24-bit is great sounding card, but, unfortunately, it has lackluster soundfont support. I'm wondering if i can somehow make the Audigy 2 ZS sound from speakers connected to the Live! 24-bit. Basically, i want the sound of the A2 ZS to come from the Live! 24-bit, and hear it through speakers attached to whichever card is necessary. I'm hoping i can do this via the I/O on the cards. That is, by using a cable from the Line In of one card into the Line Out of the other, or vice versa. If not, then how could i hook them up internally?

Thanks in advance.

dj_stick

that should work

__________________

seskanda

If you mean using a cable from Line In of one card into Line Out of the other should work; i tried that, but it does NOT for me. Here's what i did, i used a Y cable just like this: 3.5mm STEREO JACK Y-SPLITTER F-M-M CABLE. I connected the female part to my speakers, the first male end to the Line In of the Audigy 2 ZS, and the second male end to Line Out 1 (green jack) on the Live! 24-bit. Now, i only hear sound from the Live! 24-bit. When i select the A2 ZS's soundfont synth, i hear NOTHING. Or, if i select the A2 ZS as the default audio device in XP, i still hear nada. Am i missing something? Is there something else i need to do next? Is the cable i have the right one?

peate

Shouldn't you be using line out on the A2 as well?

Russ

It sounds like you have your connections backwards.

i.e.
It should be Line Out of A2ZS into Line In of Live! 24 Bit (with speakers connected to the Line Out of the Live! 24 Bit).

Make sure that the Line Out that you use on the A2ZS matches kX's swap front and rear setting (and that you have a soundfont loaded on the A2ZS).

Doug W

I would think that you could also run a cable from the digital out on the A2ZS to the digital in of the Live and connect them that way. Use the A2ZS for your soundfonts and output to the speakers from your Live 24 bit.

Route your MIDI sound to the SPDIF out in the kX mixer (or custom DSP) and choose SPDIF-In as the source on your Live. I would think that would work.

seskanda

So, you mean put the male ends of the cable to the Line Out of A2ZS and Line IN of Live! 24-bit, and do NOT connect the speakers to the female connector on the Y cable, then? Wouldn't i need to use this cable, though Instead, i need to connect the speakers to the Line Out (green jack) on the Live! 24, is that right?? If so, that explains why it did NOT seem to work before. That is, the A2 ZS's sound did NOT come from the Live! 24, i still heard the Live! 24's sound come from the speakers.

Actually, i'm using CL drivers on the A2 ZS, is there anything i need to do with them?

Are you suggesting i do this, IN ADDITION, to what's mentioned above? Is this a better alternative to that? It seems the Live! 24's Line In (blue jack) dubs as a Digital Input & Output, it says "Digital_IO" on it. How is this so? But, A2 ZS only says " Digtal Out", though.

Russ

Sorry, somehow I misunderstood your previous post. Your splitter cable should work as well, except it should be connected as Peate said, to both Line Outs.

Yes, this what I meant. With this method, instead of sending the sound from both cards to the the speakers, you are sending the sound from the A2ZS to the Live! 24 Bit (and the Live! 24 Bit sends it to your speakers or your recording application, etc). With this method, you can use the audio from both cards at the same time, but there is a drawback since you are going from digital-analog-digital. If you do this, make sure that Windows Mixer is configured to use Line In of the Live 24 Bit.

Connecting them together digitally (as Doug said) would probably be the best method, as it would work as above, except you skip the conversion stuff.

No, just connect it to the jack used for the front speakers of the A2ZS, (and you probably would want to set CL's Surround mixer to output stereo only).

seskanda

Wouldn't this result in the sound of BOTH cards being sent to the speakers? I know this happens when i attach the Y cable to my headphones, and the male ends to the Line Out on the cards. Also, i recall this would isolate the sound of each card to ONE side of the headphone (i.e. either left or right) I believe it did the same thing when i used the Y cable with speakers, too. Maybe that's why they call Y cables "splitters" However, the second cable i linked is NOT a splitter, so i should hear the 2 cards come from the left+right speakers, then, right??



What drawbacks are there? More crackles and pops?! If that's the case, i'll stick with the digital way, then. BTW, what do i need to do in Windows Mixer to use Line In of Live 24 bit? Also, does the conversion happen ONLY because the Line In (it's analog, right?) of the Live 24 dubs as Digital I/O, as well?? If so, then i could buy another card with separate Line In & Digital I/O, and that should work, no? See the end of my post about whether i should get another sound card or not.

I can't find the option to set output as stereo in CL's surround mixer, i only see a way to switch "Digital Output Only" on, is that what you're referring to?


Unfortunately, it appears the Live! 24 bit is also crackling. This mostly occurs when i play certain soundfonts. But, what's driving me nuts, is that the soundfont which crackles on the Audigy 2 ZS does NOT crackle when i play it with the Live 24, and vice versa. I don't understand, why does this happen!? On the A2 ZS, the first soundfont ONLY crackles when i play high notes C7 or above, while it sounds fine on the Live! 24 The second soundfont sounds good on the A2 ZS, but crackles on the Live 24 ONLY when i play chords (two or more pitches) at the same time.

I know the old Live! cards resampled ANY sound at a sample rate other than 48K, correct? BUT, the Audigy 2 cards do NOT resample anything to 48K, unless you apply DSP effect to it, true? It just does NOT make sense to me. Whenever i get my hands on a solid pair of speakers, i try that, again, just to make sure my speakers are NOT failing me. Although, AFAIK, that might NOT explain why a soundfont crackles on one card, but NOT another In my hunt for a new sound card, i only know of 3 quality cards that have 3.5mm TRS Inputs: M-Audio Revolution 5.1/7.1, Yamaha SW1000XG, & E-MU APS. I'm leaning towards the SW1000XG, since it has many extra features (but hard to find) and the E-MU APS is near impossible to get. Some help would be appreciated.

Russ

Right, a Y-Cable sends audio from 2 different sources to the same destination (the cable you linked to is a stereo cable (all ends), so both sources would be in stereo (but you should not use both sources at the same time)), or one source to two different destinations. Obviously this is not the same as sending the audio from one card to the other. The second cable will work for this, or (again) you can do it digitally.

Both Line In and Line Out are analog (Line In goes into the card, Line Out comes out). The fact that the jack is a dual purpose jack makes no difference. Assuming that you want to be able to record, and not just send it to your speakers. then that path would be OS (digital) -> Line Out (analog) -> Line In (analog) -> OS (digital), thus the conversion. If you are just sending it to your speakers, then that may not be the case (depending on how the Live! 24 Bit is configured (I really do not know enough about the Live! 24 Bit to give good info)).

Digital would be less susceptible to noise and is the way most people would probably do it (if they are able to do so).

The Surround Mixer should allow you to choose speaker modes as well (i.e. 7.1, 5,1, 2.1, headphones, etc). 2.0 would be stereo only. It has been too long since I used the Creative driver to give you specific info on this, and I know nothing about the Live! 24 Bit. Also (for the same reasons), I cannot give you specific info on how to configure the cards using the Creative driver. Additionally, your config would depend on if you are recording or just want to send it to the speakers, etc.

Honestly it is hard to answer your questions since I do not know that much about the Live! 24 Bit, and I am not completely sure what your purposes are, and because I use the kX driver (this is the kX forum after all). I keep finding myself thinking about how I would do such things using kX and the DSP, etc, and without that, I do not see as much advantage to doing it, especially if both cards are giving you problems.

seskanda

I hope you're ONLY referring to the Y-cable when you say NOT to use the sound from both cards simultaneously. I can't send one source to two destinations, unless i have 3 cards, right? In which case, the second cable i linked to, would need to have 3 male ends, true? I much prefer to hook them up digtally (if at all). I believe ONLY the Surround Mixer on the old Live! cards had an option to choose speakers modes. The Audigy 2 and above have "Creative Speaker Settings" program, and the 2.0 mode is lumped with 2.1 it says there "2/2.1 Speakers"

Are you describing the analog way, here, for playback AND recording? Is this for kX, CL drivers, or both? Would recording entail converting MIDI to audio? What does "OS" stand for I'm confused, is it possible to have the Audigy 2 ZS's sound come out the Live! 24, and be able to record, by ONLY connecting the Digital I/O on the cards?? You seem to by implying that the previous approaches will NOT let me record anything, or am i wrong?

Regarding my noise problem, does anyone know if the jacks on SB cards are balanced? If not, then an unbalanced connection could be the culprit, but the speakers are only about 6 feet away from the card. AFAIK, unbalanced sources distort at around 20 feet minimum. I tried switching the speakers from right to left channel, and vice versa, but NO luck. I'm running out of ideas, if the soundfonts themselves were screwed up, then the noise should sound on BOTH cards. Unfortunately, i couldn't get a hold of some decent pair of speakers, yet.

Russ

Yes, I was referring to the Y-Cable. In any case, I would just forget about the Y-Cable...

This is why I say it is hard to answer questions such as "How to do such and such?" with the Creative driver, when I do not have the particular sound card, nor am I using the Creative driver. In any case, you would use the "2/2.1 Speakers" setting, and there is probably another area where you can select whether to use the LFE output or not.

Yes, though I left one option out. You could always just select to use the A2ZS for recording, and then there is no digital to analog to digital conversion happening when recording (sorry with all these questions, I guess I blanked that out )...

i.e.
This (the analog way, using the second cable) is similar to how some TV cards are used: Line Out from TV card connected to Line In of Sound card (which has speakers connected to it) so that TV audio can be heard in the speakers.

Both.

Yes, I mean recording the output of the synth, which is digital audio, but you do not have to convert anything, the synth does this.

OS stands for Operating System (as in Windows).

Yes of course it is possible. Either method (analog or digtial) will work.

No the outputs are not balanced, and no that is probably not the problem.

Does it makes a difference what volume level you use?
Have you tried using headphones?

seskanda

Point taken.


I NEVER addressed the question to ANY specific person. I merely addressed it to someone using CL drivers. I'm well aware this IS the kX forum and all, but i'm pretty sure SOME kX'ers use CL drivers, too. Anyway, i can't find LFE output, what is that for, though?

That's good to know.



Unfortunately, different volume levels make NO difference whatsoever. I just tried Sony MDR-V250 headphones, and it STILL makes the SAME noise as before. I'm at a total lost with what this means. Should i even bother trying another pair of speakers?

Lex Nahumury

You keep mentioning crackling/popping/noise during SoundFont playback.
So all other forms of audio playback (wav/mp3/asio etc.) are OK???

Russ

Sorry, you quoted me and then asked the question, so I did think think it was addressed to me specifically, but yes of course someone else might be able to give you more specific info. LFE is a channel used for low frequency effects. It is the ".1" in the various speakers modes, so if for example you use a "2.1" speaker mode, with LFE disabled, then it would really be "2.0". With the type of speakers that are often connected to a computer, the ".1" often is used to indicate the subwoofer, but it is not really the same thing. (i.e. a sub is used to play sounds that the other speakers cannot play or to enhance bass (so for example, it may play audio that was intended for the front outputs), while LFE is a separate channel).

I doubt that the speakers are the problem.

seskanda

For the most part, yes. I played one mp3 and there was VERY slight popping, but it's probably because the .mp3 was just 8 Kbps Also, if i use really low latency (less than 8-9 ms) with ASIO drivers in my host, Sonar. Otherwise, Audio sounds the best in Sonar, and pretty much everywhere else,too.


Thanks for the info. Yes, my Altec Lansing ACS33 speakers DO have a subwoofer, does that mean it has an LFE? But, alas, i still can NOT find where to turn it on/off. So, what would doing that accomplish? BTW, what are the front outputs, and what will happen if the LFE channel sounds through it? I'll have to install my Live! CT4780 on the Dimension E310, as i recall the programs for it seemed to have more features than those with the Audigy 2 ZS.


Then what could it be?? Have i ruled out the sound cards, yet? Or is it the soundfont presets themselves? The fact that one of them sounds good on the Audigy 2 ZS, but NOT on the Live 24 (and vice versa) is mind-boggling

Russ

The point wasn't what type of speakers you have, but rather that Line In and/or the digital I/O is stereo only, so there is no point in using more then 2 channels with the A2ZS if you are connecting them together as such. In any case, AFAIK, the ACS33 is stereo only (the subwoofer is not a discreet subwoofer. i.e. there is only one stereo plug that connects to the sound card, so there is no discreet LFE channel). In any case just set the speaker mode to the 2/2.1 setting and you should be fine. As for the rest ("What are the front outputs", etc), I suggest that you read the help/manual for your sound card(s).

I do not know, but in order for people to be able to help with that, you should probably include more info. i.e. Specific soundfont(s) that you are using, the specific instrument/patch, and if the problem always occurs when playing certain notes, etc, include specific info about that.

Lex Nahumury

Then I'm pretty sure its those particulair soundfonts.
Perhaps to 'hot' preset causing internal clipping and/or wrong looppoints causing clicks.
Just check/edit them with Vienna.
Not really.
IIRC both cards are based on totaly different chips.
Hence different driver code, different SF implementation.
(I doubt the 24 has hw accelerated SF support, probably software synth)

seskanda

Well, since you determined my speakers are 2.0 stereo, i only have 2 channels max, right?

Ah, i see, now. Is my subwoofer inferior if it's NOT "discreet" then? So, do ANY 2 speakers+sub systems have the LFE channel, and a separate plug for that? And Green jack=Front,Black=Rear,Yellow=Center/Subwoofer/Rear Center, according to my manuals.

I'll try to be as specific as i can, the first preset is called 'Phasing Strings" from Vintage Dreams Waves.sf2. The Audigy 2 ZS crackles in the high register, approximately B7 and above, although this ONLY happens when playing fast notes (i.e. sixteenth or higher) It's especially discernible in around 3-4 seconds. However, the Live 24 bit does NOT this problem, at all. Instead, the Live 24 crackles when i play chords (two notes or more) with the same preset from the same bank above. The second preset is from Vintage Dreams Waves.sf2 called "Delicate Bells." Again, the Audigy 2 ZS has the EXACT crackling issue mentioned above. While, the Live 24 seems to have NO problems AT ALL with it.

When i playback the loop points in Vienna, it's hard for me to hear if anything is wrong. What do you mean by 'hot'?


Your right about the 24 NOT having a HW soundfont synth, according to Vienna 2.3, under Options->Preferences->Devices-."Sound Engine' it says:"SW Synth."

Lex Nahumury

Too high volume/level/gain/amplitude settings (take your pick).

Anyway, those vintage dreams soundfonts are too LOUD (='hot').
That is what causing the distortion (clipping) you hear.
Nothing else.

Russ

Yes, but again, I was originally referring to how the A2ZS should be configured, which would not be directly connected to the speakers, but rather to the other sound card, so in that case the speakers are irrelevant. In any case, with that speaker system, and with connecting the cards together as such, you would want to set both cards to use the 2/2.1 setting.

It is not necessarily inferior, it is just less configurable (as far as your bass redirection options go, etc), however even with some speaker systems with a discreet sub, components within the speaker system may still exist that redirect certain frequencies, which may give similar results as your speaker system, so...

seskanda

Where can i adjust the above settings of the preset in Vienna ?

Then, it seems the Live 24 has a greater dynamic range than the Audigy 2 ZS, or a lesser Total harmonic distortion(THD) compared to the A2 ZS, is that right?

Lex Nahumury

On top of my head; look for parameters 'initial attenuation', else read Vienna manual.

Btw; You could first try lowering the MIDI channels Volume but that's very course.
Better to normalize your SF presets.
Neh, I think it's a matter of small differences in SF implementation.
Eitherway; This sort of clipping has nothing to do with THD.

seskanda

Increasing the 'initial attenuation' did NOT get rid of the crackling. I do NOT think its possible to normalize in Vienna. I'd have to export the samples into an audio editor, and do it there.



I'm assuming that, while the Live 24's soundfont synth is software, it's based on the hardware synths of the Emu10kx. I doubt CL Labs would take the time to set apart the 24's SF synth from the Emu10kx series, unless they had NO choice.

Lex Nahumury

I have that same Vintage Dream SF right here and setting Melodic Pool ->[Patch 35: 'phasing strings] -> Global Zone -> Initial Attenuation to ~52dB lowers its average level to ~-6dB and gets rid of any clipping.

It's actualy quite hard to make that softsynth sound and behave exactly the same as the hw implementation.
Btw; Even consecutive CL drivers for hw Emu10kx series differ in SF implementation.

Maddogg6

edited: - the initial attenuation is a little confusing at the PATCH level - negitive numbers actually amplify, and positive numbers attenuate (lower volume)
At the instrument level - you can only do positive attenuation

I just tested and forgot/was confused - as it has been a while since I played with vienna. Maybe OP is also confused by this too... ?? /edit

edit again - If the OP could state the version of Vienna used - I can give more detailed steps to lower the volume and fix that patch... I also would recommend panning the layers to help reduce the additive affect that most surey is helping cause clipping.

seskanda

AH, but you see, i did that at the INSTRUMENT pool, rather than the MELODIC pool. I just tried it now in the melodic pool ( set it as high as +/-144 dB , the max it goes) but the crackling is STILL there. I'm beginning to think the fact it's 'hot' is NOT the problem.

I guess your right. Actually, the old Live's! have SF 2.01 support, while the Audigy's have 2.1. V2.1 adds modulator routings, and a few other things. AFAIK, it's just an update to v2.01, and still based on it. Unless, of course, it changed some stuff, i wouldn't know this.

I'm using Vienna 2.3. Again, i set the pan pot to +/- 100, the max level it goes, but it does NOT get rid of the crackling. Your suggestions would be helpful.

Lex Nahumury

Then I have NO idea what "crackling" it is you say you still hear.
Good luck!

Maddogg6

So - editing the HALF RECTIFICATION instrument, setting the initial attenuation (to +144) to *both* of the GLOBAL layers - not only is it still crackling - you still hear the instrument when previewing the instrument (clicking on the piano virtual keys near the top of the vienna editor screen) ??

I will make some screen shot to better illustrate what exactly to do.

edit: I made this - (and thanks to Russ for looking for any gross errors, and his suggestions )
http://maddogg6.googlepages.com/tempviennaediting

If you see levels (with 1 key pressed) well below 0db as shown - its not from the SF2 file having too hot samples - tho coincidentally - many patches in that SF2 do distort for me (as well as Lex too) as well, until I edited that SF2 file - it would have been better to test with a known good SF2 file. That file just adds confusion to this problem. /edit

Russ

BTW: A velocity of 1, with the Phasing Strings preset causes noise too, so you may want to set the min velocity to like 2 or something.

<edit>
Actually this only seems to happen when you add the initial attenuation (and may effect other velocity settings too, depending on settings), so maybe it would be better to just edit the wave samples instead (I do not know ).
</edit>