Front stereo separation

rventena · Feb 18, 2011, 11:49 AM

Hi, just wondering if I can separate front stereo (fL/fR) and make it even wider inside KX. I am using KX 3538 on Windows 2000 Pro SP4 and SB Audigy 1 soundcard. I have a cheap 5.1 system (45 watt) and there doesn't seem to be enough width, even if the front speakers are ~80+ inches apart. I verified it works better on headphones though. Is there are way I can separate front stereo in the DSP, router, etc? The rear surround outputs are fine. This setup is on my homemade HTPC using a Pentium III 1.0 GHz and XGA projector. Works great, just need better front stereo width if possible before decide on getting a new 5.1 system I suppose.

Btw, is 3538 the last version I can use with Win 2k?

Russ · Feb 18, 2011, 03:04 PM

You could try this (assumes that you are using the default DSP config):

Load Stereo Mix and Phase plugins (both found under "Basic" submenu).
Connect fL/fR outputs of Surrounder+ to to the top 2 pins of Stereo Mix.
Connect fR output of Surrounder+ to the 1st pin of Phase plugin.
Connect fL output of Surrounder+ to the 2nd pin of Phase plugin.
(i.e. so connections to Phase plugin are cross-connected/reversed)
Connect output of Phase plugin to bottom 2 pins of Stereo Mix.
Connect Stereo Mix outputs to 10BandEQ.

With Stereo Mix:
Set In1 Level to 100%.
Set In2 Level to 0% and increase as necessary (probably shouldn't go beyond 50%).

Note: This basically just subtracts an amount (In2 Level) of the left channel from right channel (and vice-versa).

Quote:

Originally Posted by rventena

Btw, is 3538 the last version I can use with Win 2k?

I think that is right... there used to be an unofficial patch for kX version 3539 located here: patched 3539 for w2k but the download link appears to be dead.

Max M. · Feb 18, 2011, 03:28 PM

mm, don't we have any Stereo width plugin yet? (Doh! I was sure we had):

Code:

name "Stereo Width"
guid "3D74D1F9-7E22-41C4-A8A6-B605B8D99710"

input   iL, iR
output  L, R
control Width = 0
temp    S

macs  S, iL, iR, -1
macs  L, iL, S,  Width
macsn R, iR, S,  Width
 
end

(OK, this is "limited" edition - Width control at 100% actually means +33% stereo width).

RPGWiZaRD · Feb 21, 2011, 05:53 PM

I could actually have a use of a stereo width tweak.

How do you actually get to use that as a plugin or whatever? I tried pasting it to the kX editor and it verifies it as ok but what then? I wonder how I actually enable so that is uses it.

Also does this apply to like both rear and front channels? Well maybe that's stupid thing to say when talking about "stereo" sound but I wonder what would be the result running it together with surrounder+ plugin set to 5.1 movie preset using headphones that brings a nice wide/pseudo surround sound, at times I'd gladly feel like trying to broaden the perceived width of the "soundstage" though by tweaks like this.

Max M. · Feb 21, 2011, 06:15 PM

q:

Quote:

how do you actually get to use that as a plugin or whatever?

a:

Quote:

just copy the code to some text editor (e.g. Notepad) and save it somewhere with "da" extension ("theverybestProHQHQplugin.da" for example) - then register this new file with kxmixer (either by double-clicking on the file itself or via "kx dsp" "register effects" menu)

RPGWiZaRD · Feb 21, 2011, 07:05 PM

*facepalm* I'm shocked I didn't figure out that

What about unloading these effects, do you really have to load default settings or load the your saved configs for them to unload?

It seems to provide a subtle change to width, still experimenting how high you can actually set the value though or won't it make any difference going paste a certain value such as 100 for example. (I did test with 500 out of curiosity and it seemed to widen it tho).

Sounds good btw, doesn't overdo it and neither affect sound quality in a negative way which many freeware "audio enhancing" software or even VST plugins with these "width" etc settings mostly do. Now I'm able to get headphone listening experience that resemble speaker setups.

You should make a plugin of it with maybe some fancy skin and adding other similar settings.

Max M. · Feb 21, 2011, 07:14 PM

Quote:

What about unloading these effects, do you really have to load default settings or load the your saved configs for them to unload?

I'm not sure I understand the question - but "these effects" is just exactly the same thing as any other kX effect/plugin, there's nothing specific about it. So all the usual use applies.
(If by "unloading" you mean "uninstalling" (i.e. removing the plugin from kX DSP "Add Effect/Plugin" menu) - then just delete the file itself and kxmixer will uninstall it automatically).

RPGWiZaRD · Feb 21, 2011, 07:37 PM

This also improves the soundstage or positional sound for games slightly, like I'd be able to hear the directions slightly more clear now and the distance slightly further ahead.

Thx for sharing this.

EDIT: width = 91 seems to work great for me.

Russ · Feb 22, 2011, 12:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPGWiZaRD

I wonder what would be the result running it together with surrounder+ plugin set to 5.1 movie preset using headphones

Using headphones with 5.1 Movie Mode (or any setting greater than 2.0) will cause you to be missing sounds with sources that have more than 2 channels (unless you are using some plugin after Surrounder that downmixes back to 2.0).

RPGWiZaRD · Feb 22, 2011, 01:18 AM

I've compared it with sources that provide more than 2 channels several times and I'm not missing any sounds. Reverb provided by CLEAX2Reverb sounds more high quality compared to 2.0 mode setup especially.

Russ · Feb 22, 2011, 01:50 AM

You are talking about regular stereo headphones, right (not some surround headphones)?

I suppose that some of the other channels are getting through from the FX sends (or maybe you are using alternate routing in the DSP or kX Router), but the 5.1 setting (with default routing) means:

(not including routing bug in Vista/7)
Stereo sources go to front speakers and headphones (and possibly other speakers, depending on upmixing settings).
Front channel (multi-channel sources) goes to front speakers and headphones
Rear channel (multi-channel sources) goes to rear speakers
Center/LFE (multi-channel sources) goes to Center/LFE

From the above, you should should be missing sounds for rear channel and center/lfe using stereo headphones and 5.1 setting.

In any case, if it works well for you...

Regarding CLEAX2Reverb:
I am glad you like it, as it took a bit of work to grab all those presets from the CL driver.

RPGWiZaRD · Feb 22, 2011, 11:28 AM

I use FXBusX 4/5 channels routed to WaveL and WaveR on xrouting through Surrounder+ so pretty much default config scenario except for some optional plugins such as EQ and reverb and I'm not missing the rear channel outputs at all. It sounds like it would be coming from "behind" when using Surrounder+ and set surround to "on" and while there's very subtle difference as far as surround sound goes using 5.1 or 2.0 speaker setup on headphones in Surrounder+ there was quite a big difference in how the CLEAX2Reverb sounds with it and with 5.1 it sounds so much better when fading away. I've used real multichannel demo/test recordings using foobar2000 with appropriate settings (checked with some guide to be 100% sure) and it would output them all and I've never had problems with gaming that I would miss out on any sounds either, in fact it's the best surround sound experience I've had with headphones and sounds so great I just can't be bothered to go for any updated soundcard even if there exists the X-Fi chip based and ASUS Xonar cards that are supposedly great for gaming.

And thanks for that awesome plugin. For me it was the reverb plugin that simply provided the best sounding reverb effects and I tested them all (incl Max' reverb plugin despite that one offers much more configurability). I use the "auditorium" preset and thanks to being routed through FXMix2 I can control the volume of it to be the perfect amount so it won't sound weird/unnatural while gaming (thinking of speech mainly) but still provide a sense of getting a bigger soundstage/listening in a bigger room.

Russ · Feb 22, 2011, 02:02 PM

I see... FxBus 4/5 is the bus that is used for the rear channel with multi-channel sources... Your routing basically re-routes it to the front speakers/headphones (so that explains why you are not missing those sounds).

RPGWiZaRD · Feb 23, 2011, 10:04 AM

After comparing some more versus using FXBusX 0/1 & SPDIF/ AC3 Output device and Surrounder+ using "2.0 Surround mix" preset versus using FXBusX 4/5 & Wave 4/5 output device and Surrounder+ using "5.1 Movie Mode" preset it seems also the surround sound works noticably better using the latter, ie FXBusX 4/5 / Wave 4/5 device using 5.1 speaker mode in Surrounder+. Just saying it as a hint to other headphone users as most probably wouldn't have thought about trying those settings I'd imagine. It results in the best possible distinct and spacious and natural surround sound. With the settings I use it doesn't sound like I'm wearing headphones because the soundstage doesn't seem to have any limits in size and seems like the sounds would come much further away sometimes than the headphone drivers that's positioned next to my ears. It's a bit like dolby headphone effect without the impact it has on sound quality itself (big lowend boost). Then pair it with an appropriately configured foobar2000 config using dolby headphone with suitable settings in channel mixer and you're in heaven listening with a good quality headphone.

rventena · Jul 10, 2011, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max M.

mm, don't we have any Stereo width plugin yet? (Doh! I was sure we had):

Code:

name "Stereo Width"
guid "3D74D1F9-7E22-41C4-A8A6-B605B8D99710"

input   iL, iR
output  L, R
control Width = 0
temp    S

macs  S, iL, iR, -1
macs  L, iL, S,  Width
macsn R, iR, S,  Width
 
end

(OK, this is "limited" edition - Width control at 100% actually means +33% stereo width).

Hi, sorry was not able to try this out until last night (yeah, months later, hehe). I saved as text file, *.da extension, but when I try to load, it gives me a plugin library error, or something. I think it was under Effects menu, same place with equalizer and stuff. If it registers correctly, will it show up on the list? I don't see it. Again, I'm using version 3538 on Win2kPro, Audigy 1.

Yes, would also like to find 3539 somewhere for Win2k. What is the difference between 3538 and 3539? Would it be worth upgrading to it?

Russ · Jul 10, 2011, 07:01 PM

For the plugin, make sure there is at least one blank line after "end".

As for 3539, it has been a while now... I do not really remember what the differences (from 3538m) were.
3539 released
3539 bug reports

BTW: If Eugene is right (what he said here: patched 3539 for w2k) then you could probably just open kx.sys in a hex editor and change byte 0x2b0 from 06 to 05.

rventena · Jul 15, 2011, 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

For the plugin, make sure there is at least one blank line after "end".

Hey thanks, the blank line worked, it registered. However, I'm not hearing any differences, I changed the Width from 0, to 100, 91, 25, 50, and even 2500, but I couldn't tell any differences. Also swapped Front and Rear, but nothing there either. I edited it, saved, then reregistered, several times. I used headphones. Does the change happen right after registration, and without rebooting the PC? Is there an app that I should use, like maybe Windows Media Player? I was using Videolan (VLC), not sure if that did anything. I also used the KX Test (the one that individually tests each speaker output with the chime/bell sound). I also ran a pink noise (stereo) mp3 but it sounded the same every time. Not sure what else I need to do, or is doing wrong.

Maybe someone could code something with a GUI and sliders, so that the Width could be changed dynamically in real time?

Haven't tried 3539 yet, until I figure the stereo separation first.

Russ · Jul 15, 2011, 04:10 AM

You need to load the plugin in the DSP, and connect it somewhere in the path to your headphones (e.g. between Surrounder and timbre/10BandEQ)... It has a GUI and slider (double click on the plugin after loading it and making the connections, etc).

rventena · Jul 15, 2011, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

You need to load the plugin in the DSP, and connect it somewhere in the path to your headphones (e.g. between Surrounder and timbre/10BandEQ)... It has a GUI and slider (double click on the plugin after loading it and making the connections, etc).

Ok, I'm not sure how to do that (so many windows in kx!), but I'll probably find it, I've seen the dsp before. It doesn't specifically have to be headphones, just using it to hear anything better, and will eventually be attached to the surround system (4.1 surround in my case atm).

And I have another issue with the surround system (something about the rear channels), but that will be a different topic.

Russ · Jul 15, 2011, 05:23 PM

Just click on the "kX DSP" button in kxmixer to open the DSP window.
Use the context menu in the DSP to load plugins, etc.
Connect it between Surrounder+ (top 2 pins) and 10BandEQ and it will affect the front channel.

Feb 18, 2011, 11:49 AM	#1
rventena HardwareHeaven Newbie Join Date: Feb 2011 Posts: 4 Rep Power: 0	Front stereo separation Hi, just wondering if I can separate front stereo (fL/fR) and make it even wider inside KX. I am using KX 3538 on Windows 2000 Pro SP4 and SB Audigy 1 soundcard. I have a cheap 5.1 system (45 watt) and there doesn't seem to be enough width, even if the front speakers are ~80+ inches apart. I verified it works better on headphones though. Is there are way I can separate front stereo in the DSP, router, etc? The rear surround outputs are fine. This setup is on my homemade HTPC using a Pentium III 1.0 GHz and XGA projector. Works great, just need better front stereo width if possible before decide on getting a new 5.1 system I suppose. Btw, is 3538 the last version I can use with Win 2k?

Feb 18, 2011, 03:28 PM	#3
Max M. h/h member-shmember Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Evil Empire Posts: 2,639 Rep Power: 69	Îòâåò: Front stereo separation mm, don't we have any Stereo width plugin yet? (Doh! I was sure we had): Code: name "Stereo Width" guid "3D74D1F9-7E22-41C4-A8A6-B605B8D99710" input iL, iR output L, R control Width = 0 temp S macs S, iL, iR, -1 macs L, iL, S, Width macsn R, iR, S, Width end (OK, this is "limited" edition - Width control at 100% actually means +33% stereo width). __________________

Feb 21, 2011, 05:53 PM	#4
RPGWiZaRD HardwareHeaven Lover Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 132 Rep Power: 0	Re: Front stereo separation I could actually have a use of a stereo width tweak. How do you actually get to use that as a plugin or whatever? I tried pasting it to the kX editor and it verifies it as ok but what then? I wonder how I actually enable so that is uses it. Also does this apply to like both rear and front channels? Well maybe that's stupid thing to say when talking about "stereo" sound but I wonder what would be the result running it together with surrounder+ plugin set to 5.1 movie preset using headphones that brings a nice wide/pseudo surround sound, at times I'd gladly feel like trying to broaden the perceived width of the "soundstage" though by tweaks like this.

Feb 21, 2011, 07:05 PM	#6
RPGWiZaRD HardwareHeaven Lover Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 132 Rep Power: 0	Re: Front stereo separation facepalm I'm shocked I didn't figure out that What about unloading these effects, do you really have to load default settings or load the your saved configs for them to unload? It seems to provide a subtle change to width, still experimenting how high you can actually set the value though or won't it make any difference going paste a certain value such as 100 for example. (I did test with 500 out of curiosity and it seemed to widen it tho). Sounds good btw, doesn't overdo it and neither affect sound quality in a negative way which many freeware "audio enhancing" software or even VST plugins with these "width" etc settings mostly do. Now I'm able to get headphone listening experience that resemble speaker setups. You should make a plugin of it with maybe some fancy skin and adding other similar settings. Last edited by RPGWiZaRD; Feb 21, 2011 at 07:18 PM.

Feb 21, 2011, 07:37 PM	#8
RPGWiZaRD HardwareHeaven Lover Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 132 Rep Power: 0	Re: Front stereo separation This also improves the soundstage or positional sound for games slightly, like I'd be able to hear the directions slightly more clear now and the distance slightly further ahead. Thx for sharing this. EDIT: width = 91 seems to work great for me. Last edited by RPGWiZaRD; Feb 21, 2011 at 08:38 PM.

Feb 22, 2011, 01:18 AM	#10
RPGWiZaRD HardwareHeaven Lover Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 132 Rep Power: 0	Re: Front stereo separation I've compared it with sources that provide more than 2 channels several times and I'm not missing any sounds. Reverb provided by CLEAX2Reverb sounds more high quality compared to 2.0 mode setup especially.

Feb 22, 2011, 01:50 AM	#11
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,563 Rep Power: 62	Re: Front stereo separation You are talking about regular stereo headphones, right (not some surround headphones)? I suppose that some of the other channels are getting through from the FX sends (or maybe you are using alternate routing in the DSP or kX Router), but the 5.1 setting (with default routing) means: (not including routing bug in Vista/7) Stereo sources go to front speakers and headphones (and possibly other speakers, depending on upmixing settings). Front channel (multi-channel sources) goes to front speakers and headphones Rear channel (multi-channel sources) goes to rear speakers Center/LFE (multi-channel sources) goes to Center/LFE From the above, you should should be missing sounds for rear channel and center/lfe using stereo headphones and 5.1 setting. In any case, if it works well for you... Regarding CLEAX2Reverb: I am glad you like it, as it took a bit of work to grab all those presets from the CL driver. Last edited by Russ; Feb 22, 2011 at 02:59 AM.

Feb 22, 2011, 11:28 AM	#12
RPGWiZaRD HardwareHeaven Lover Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 132 Rep Power: 0	Re: Front stereo separation I use FXBusX 4/5 channels routed to WaveL and WaveR on xrouting through Surrounder+ so pretty much default config scenario except for some optional plugins such as EQ and reverb and I'm not missing the rear channel outputs at all. It sounds like it would be coming from "behind" when using Surrounder+ and set surround to "on" and while there's very subtle difference as far as surround sound goes using 5.1 or 2.0 speaker setup on headphones in Surrounder+ there was quite a big difference in how the CLEAX2Reverb sounds with it and with 5.1 it sounds so much better when fading away. I've used real multichannel demo/test recordings using foobar2000 with appropriate settings (checked with some guide to be 100% sure) and it would output them all and I've never had problems with gaming that I would miss out on any sounds either, in fact it's the best surround sound experience I've had with headphones and sounds so great I just can't be bothered to go for any updated soundcard even if there exists the X-Fi chip based and ASUS Xonar cards that are supposedly great for gaming. And thanks for that awesome plugin. For me it was the reverb plugin that simply provided the best sounding reverb effects and I tested them all (incl Max' reverb plugin despite that one offers much more configurability). I use the "auditorium" preset and thanks to being routed through FXMix2 I can control the volume of it to be the perfect amount so it won't sound weird/unnatural while gaming (thinking of speech mainly) but still provide a sense of getting a bigger soundstage/listening in a bigger room. Last edited by RPGWiZaRD; Feb 22, 2011 at 11:41 AM.

Feb 22, 2011, 02:02 PM	#13
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,563 Rep Power: 62	Re: Front stereo separation I see... FxBus 4/5 is the bus that is used for the rear channel with multi-channel sources... Your routing basically re-routes it to the front speakers/headphones (so that explains why you are not missing those sounds).

Feb 23, 2011, 10:04 AM	#14
RPGWiZaRD HardwareHeaven Lover Join Date: Dec 2007 Posts: 132 Rep Power: 0	Re: Front stereo separation After comparing some more versus using FXBusX 0/1 & SPDIF/ AC3 Output device and Surrounder+ using "2.0 Surround mix" preset versus using FXBusX 4/5 & Wave 4/5 output device and Surrounder+ using "5.1 Movie Mode" preset it seems also the surround sound works noticably better using the latter, ie FXBusX 4/5 / Wave 4/5 device using 5.1 speaker mode in Surrounder+. Just saying it as a hint to other headphone users as most probably wouldn't have thought about trying those settings I'd imagine. It results in the best possible distinct and spacious and natural surround sound. With the settings I use it doesn't sound like I'm wearing headphones because the soundstage doesn't seem to have any limits in size and seems like the sounds would come much further away sometimes than the headphone drivers that's positioned next to my ears. It's a bit like dolby headphone effect without the impact it has on sound quality itself (big lowend boost). Then pair it with an appropriately configured foobar2000 config using dolby headphone with suitable settings in channel mixer and you're in heaven listening with a good quality headphone. Attached Thumbnails Last edited by RPGWiZaRD; Feb 23, 2011 at 10:33 AM.

Jul 10, 2011, 07:01 PM	#16
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,563 Rep Power: 62	Re: Front stereo separation For the plugin, make sure there is at least one blank line after "end". As for 3539, it has been a while now... I do not really remember what the differences (from 3538m) were. 3539 released 3539 bug reports BTW: If Eugene is right (what he said here: patched 3539 for w2k) then you could probably just open kx.sys in a hex editor and change byte 0x2b0 from 06 to 05. Last edited by Russ; Jul 10, 2011 at 09:25 PM.

Jul 15, 2011, 04:10 AM	#18
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,563 Rep Power: 62	Re: Front stereo separation You need to load the plugin in the DSP, and connect it somewhere in the path to your headphones (e.g. between Surrounder and timbre/10BandEQ)... It has a GUI and slider (double click on the plugin after loading it and making the connections, etc).

Jul 15, 2011, 05:23 PM	#20
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,563 Rep Power: 62	Re: Front stereo separation Just click on the "kX DSP" button in kxmixer to open the DSP window. Use the context menu in the DSP to load plugins, etc. Connect it between Surrounder+ (top 2 pins) and 10BandEQ and it will affect the front channel.