cap51cap51

Hi,
In the documentation I can read:

"The 'Direct SPDIF Recording' is activated via kX Mixer (on the main page). Due to the nature of this recording method, the signal completely bypasses the DSP, which is why it is not affected by any uploaded effects or by the kX Mixer sliders and recording levels."

Where is it exactly ? I cannot find the check box

In the kX Mixer page, I have a list box, AC3: OFF, SPDIF 0, SPDIF 1, SPDIF 2.
The card is a E-MU 1010

Sincerely
Cap

Max M.

It's not a check box. It should be the right-most combo-box ("list-box") on the same page - there you select the input to record from. You can see the name of each control on this page by holding mouse cursor over for a second (a tooltip will appear).

p.s. Take into account that the "Direct SPDIF Recording" is 16-bit only.

__________________

cap51cap51

Hi,

Thx for your reply.

This combo-box is not visible. (I found some screenshots on the web and I can confirm that this is not what I see in my kX mixer main page)

I am using kxdrv3550-x86.

In kxmixer I can read: kX Generic [bc00]

In winxp device manager, I can read: "kX 10k2.5 Audio (3550) - Generic

Maybe this is due to the 'generic' ?

Should I try an older version of kX driver ? If yes, where can I download it ?

Sincerely
cap51

Max M.

That could be a sort-of-bug (I don't see any reason to hide this feature for a E-MU 1010).

kX Project -- USA Download Mirror
If you're in WinXP - the most polished and featured version for it is 3545.
Later versions are sacrifices for x64 and/or Windows 7 systems (although they have some minor E-DSP changes/fixes too - see http://www.kxproject.com/changes.php)

__________________

cap51cap51

Hi, same result with 5.10.0.3545b.
I am going to try 5.10.0.3543

Is there a way to run kxmixer in debug mode ?

I am open to debug it, even if it requires to write and compile code.

Sincerely
cap51

Max M.

>Hi, same result with 5 10 0 3545b

then most likely it's the same in all versions

>Is there a way to run kxmixer in debug mode ?

Debug mode does not provide possiblility to enable/disable particular feature.
Though you can force kxmixer to use particular soundcard model GUI set
(--noac97, --ac97, --nozsnb, --zsnb, --nok2ex, --k2ex, --noa2, --a2, --no10k2, --10k2, --noaps, --aps, --51, --no51; for example "kxmixer.exe --aps" etc.), but this is intended for skin development only, and any exposed controls may actually not work.

You could try to access the feature with kxctrl (run "kxctrl" via command line to see available options).
Most likely "direct spdif rec." is one of "-shw/-ghw" flags (you can find more details about each kxctrl command in the SDK somewhere in kxctrl source code files).

--
BTW., what's the deal with this feature? Why do you need it? Actually, considering that kX's "direct spdif recording" is quite limited and not user-friendly in use if compared to the similar functionality of the original Emu drivers ("transparent spdif recording w/o resampling in any format") I would say that using kX drivers is not a good idea at all if such kind of recording is one of your often tasks.

__________________

janez

doesn´t it depend on the card you use wether that feature is available at all?

Max M.

doesn´t it depend on the card you use wether that feature is available at all?

It does. But E-MU 1010 uses the same emu10k2 where the feature is available - so if the mixer does not show the corresponding control - it's a bug (probably just an overlook in those internal gui/skin configs).

__________________

kosketus

@ Max
I too had been planning on using this feature.

I was basing this on the kX Project's "Direct Recording Guide" (author not named). I'm sure you're familiar with it, and it seems you perhaps don't agree with its conclusion:-
"Direct SPDIF recording dramatically improves the recording quality (of digital sources)...The improvements include better frequency response and intermodulation..."
The author begins by reminding us that 10k1- and -2-based cards re-sample everything to 48 KHz and goes on to say that the only way of avoiding this is by bypassing the DSP entirely - by using Direct SPDIF Recording.

Nowhere in the guide is bit-rate mentioned, so it came as a shock to read your statement I was just assuming - given the author's glowing recommendation - that it would be 24-bit.

Anyway, I understand why you would advise someone with an Emu 1010 (the OP in this case) not to have anything to do with this feature. But I have an Audigy2, and would like to avoid the Audigy's re-sampling if possible. Not knowing any other way than direct SPDIF I had been pinning my hopes to that - until I read your post!

Are there in fact other alternatives (24-bit ones), or is it that you question - correctly in my case I daresay - whether most people could tell the difference?

I ought perhaps to explain that it's not recording from digital that I'm interested in. But the Guide says:- "It is possible to choose which SPDIF input to record....in the present implementation (not identified) it is possible to record analog I2S sources (Line2/Mic2, Aux2) in 'direct' mode too" (emphasis added). It was that whicharoused my interest:- I immediately had visions of using kX to record from vinyl in 24/96 with no re-sampling along the way.

Any further advice?

Max M.

I ought perhaps to explain that it's not recording from digital that I'm interested in.

That the key. This feature make sense *only* for "digital sources" (e.g. Coaxial/Optical SPDIF inputs).
There's absolutely no point to use it for analog inputs - since the ADCs of analog inputs already work at card's clock/rate.

I immediately had visions of using kX to record from vinyl in 24/96 with no re-sampling along the way.

Just use "Wave HQ" interface of your A2.

__________________

cap51cap51

C:\Program Files\kX Audio Driver\3550>kxctrl.exe -istat
kX Driver Control Program
Copyright � Eugene Gavrilov, 2001-2009. All rights reserved.
This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or
(at your option) any later version.

Status:
spdif A: ffffffff 0 (ffffffff)
spdif B: ffffffff 0 (ffffffff)
spdif C: ffffffff 0 (ffffffff)
i2s 0: 1080000
i2s 1: 1080000
i2s 2: 1080000
spdif 0: 2109204 / bb
spdif 1: 2109204 / bb
spdif 2: 2109204 / bb
spdif freq: 48000
p16v rec: 0


In ikx.h I can read #define KX_HW_SPDIF_RECORDING 12

C:\Program Files\kX Audio Driver\3550>kxctrl.exe -ghw 12
kX Driver Control Program
Copyright � Eugene Gavrilov, 2001-2009. All rights reserved.
This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or
(at your option) any later version.

Error getting HW parameter

cap51cap51

C:\Program Files\kX Audio Driver\3550>edspctrl.exe
kX E-DSP Control Program
Copyright � Eugene Gavrilov, 2001-2009. All rights reserved.
This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or
(at your option) any later version.

==== E-mu E-DSP initialization
==== FPGA appears to be already programmed
==== Dock is not connected
==== Current E-DSP status
Card: 'kX Generic [bc00]'
Options: 0 -
Hana ID: 15
Versions: 1.6, 0.0, 0
Dock power state is not known, probably, self-powered MicroDock [1f]
WClock: 0 [Int 48]
Def clock: 48000
HANA is UnMuted
HANA IRQs: f
SPDIF mode [0]:
Out: Consumer
In: Consumer
Optical Type: [0] -- Input: SPDIF, Output: SPDIF
MIDI In: none, none [0]
MIDI Out: c
LEDs: 0 12 0
ADC pads: 0 -
DAC pads: 0 -
Dock misc flags are set to 1f, probably, MicroDock
ADAT Unlocked
SPDIF Locked : 48000
BNC Locked : 24000
SPDIF Locked : 24000
reg 14-1f:[0] [1f] [0] [1f] [0] [0] [0] [1f] [0] [1f] [1f] [1f]
reg 30-3f:[1f] [1f] [1f] [1f] [1f] [1f] [1f] [1f] [1] [7] [1f] [1f] [1f] [1f] [1f]

Max M.

kxctrl.exe -ghw 12 -> "Error getting HW parameter"

So it is disabled at the driver level. Well, then it's nothing you can do except posting a bug report in the correponding thread (Though I can't say for sure if it is the bug actually or it is disabled on purpose because of some hardware changes/incompatibilities).

__________________

kosketus

Max

Appendix A of kX Help says:"By default, p16v->10k2 path is disabled. It is necessary to load the ‘p16v’ effect into the kX DSP window in order to enable it." But upon loading the p16v plugin and opening it I see it only provides for routing to either I2S or SPDIF (physical?) outputs.

So I'm guessing I must disable all four nodes in the plugin and then connect pins 2 and 3 of p16v to WinMM via MX6. Is that all there is to it, please?

Max M.

No, forget about "p16v" DSP *plugin* (this is just another "bad/wrong" name in kX, the plugin is nothing but just a representation of the input from the p16v hardware module to the DSP module, but we don't need the DSP for 96kHz playback/recording). To get true 24/96 you need to use p16v (the "p16v" hardware module) directly - you set it up in the main ("master") kX Mixer page: the "p16v" combo box there specifies the input the p16v will use for recording - for the plain "Line-In" set the combo to "I2S 1". Additionally (for the "Line-In" or any other AC97 input), you will need to turn on the "AC97 <-> I2S Routing Mode" toggle in the "AC97" page (this will enable that complementary ("non-ac97") ADC actually sitting behind "I2S 1" pins). And finally unmute and adjust the correcponding fader (i.e. "LineIn" for LineIn).
The p16v is exposed to Windows as "kX Wave *** HQ" - i.e. set your recording software to use this "HQ" port. Something like that.

__________________

kosketus

Thanks a lot, Max. I follow all that (I think) and shall try it out shortly.

Although a complete amateur, even I can see that in kX Eugene created a marvellous tool for anyone to get the best out of Creative's hardware. I always disliked Creative's own bloatware plus "in your face" marketing and it's been such a relief to be freed from it.

However, a comparitive ignoramus like me is much in need of having his hand held from time to time.

Many thanks.

cap51cap51

question/reply from EMU support:

myself: I heard this is an option named " transparent spdif recording w/o resampling in any format "

EMU: This is not a part of our driver. We are not allowed to PASS an AC3 or DTS signal due to licensing agreements we have made.
The option you refer to is a part of a 3rd party driver developed by the KX project.


So it seems that the EMU1010 does a SCMS detection or iec61937 detection to prevent from capturing AC3/DTS signals ?
So is it really a bug that kxctrl.exe -ghw 12 return "Error getting HW parameter" ?

Max M.

myself: I heard this is an option named " transparent spdif recording w/o resampling in any format "
>EMU: This is not a part of our driver. We are not allowed to PASS an AC3 or DTS signal due to licensing agreements we have made.
The option you refer to is a part of a 3rd party driver developed by the KX project.

It looks like they answered not to what you quoted but to something else (was your question really what you quoted in "myself:"? Because I don't see why they mentioned kX at all and/or AC3/DTS at all - that's just odd)).

Either way: The Emu 1010 does "transparent spdif recording w/o resampling in any format" by default (as soon as you set it to sync to SPDIF input clock). And "any format" covers any incoming PCM data from 16bit/44kHz to 24bit/96kHz (and 192kHz for optical input).

As for AC3/DTS - yeah, now I see what was the point of misunderstanding (Is your actual goal to record AC3/DTS streams from SPDIF input?)
Probably you would be better to mention this from the very beginning so that I would not mislead you by "any format" - because... you know - strictly speaking the AC3/DTS are not part of the SPDIF specification (they are more like "a hacks around SPDIF"), so unless AC3/DTS mentioned specifically - "SPDIF recording" usually means only native SPDIF formats (i.e. "PCM") recording. So I'm sorry if I mixed it up for you.
(Sure, in case of AC3/DTS stuff it's all regulated by those zillion DRM/SCMS agreements the Emu/Creative cannot ignore (the kX can't too actually but sometimes it does because of bugs )

So it seems that the EMU1010 does a SCMS detection or iec61937 detection to prevent from capturing AC3/DTS signals ?

Most likely it is just disabled at the driver level (as soon as driver detects "non-audo" bit for the incoming stream - it is simply cheaper to mute it via driver than put a dedicated stuff in hardware).

So is it really a bug that kxctrl.exe -ghw 12 return "Error getting HW parameter" ?

Well, in kX it (be it bug or not) would have nothing to do with the format detected anyway (simply because it would still need to become visible/available as soon as the incoming audio is valid - so that the mixer would have to show/hide the option on the fly - no - that's would be too complicated to code. In other words, in kX - if option would be available it would be always visible (even if recording is not really possible at the moment)).

__________________

cap51cap51

The entire discussion:

-------------------------------------

myself: Hi, I know that the EMU-1010 is putting silences when IEC958 frames are captured over spdif (coaxia or optical). How can I turn off IEC958 limitation ? (IEC958 -> IEC61937 = AC3/DTS over SPDIF) I do not want the EMU card decodes those audio frames, I just want to be able to capture them.

EMU: Just a clarification, are you basically trying to pass through AC3/DTS?

myself: My answer is no if "trying to pass through AC3/DTS" means "getting the audio signal from physical spdif input (coaxial or optical) and then broadcasting the exact same audio signal through the physical spdif output (coaxial or optical)".
I just want to capture the audio signal from physical spdif input (coaxial or optical) and then record this exact same audio signal into a file for example. I do not want the E-MU 1010 to modify the audio signal.
The audio signal I want to capture is AC3/DTS over iec61397 audio frames (iec958). Then I want to decode it by myself through developer code.
I noticed that when the E-MU capture this kind of audio signal, the card is replacing the audio signal by "silences" and this is the problem. I want to capture the original signal.

EMU: I do not think you will be able to get or captured the exact or raw data from the original source. One the signal passed through the 1212M card.
there is no way to adjust or eliminate it once the audio is processed. There is no type of control available in the card to achieve that task.

myself: Are you sure about that ? my card is a EMU 1010, serial number: YDEM 8986 0220 0008 7Q.
I heard this is an option named " transparent spdif recording w/o resampling in any format ".
Do you know how to activate it ?

EMU: This is not a part of our driver. We are not allowed to PASS an AC3 or DTS signal due to licensing agreements we have made.
The option you refer to is a part of a 3rd party driver developed by the KX project.

myself: The licensing agreements you made is the same for all EMU audio capture device ? Or only for EMU 1010 ?
same for EMU 0404 ?

EMU: This is true for all E-MU professional audio products.

-------------------------------------

Well, I do not know if the EMU support finally understood what I want to do but the thing is that I noticed the EMU 1010 is replacing those kind of audio signals by silences.

I did the following thing:

The computer A, has a "RME HDSPe AIO" audio capture card. The input is spidf AC3 over iec61937 frames (that comes from a SetTopBox on a channel where audio is 5.1). The output is the same signal through spdif too except I can modify decibels. If 0 dB then the card output the exact same signal.

The computer B, has a "EMU 1010" audio capture card. The input is spdif that comes from this RME output (from comptuer A).

I am using the respective official driver for those 2 cards.

If dB is different than 0 (from computer A) then the EMU is capturing the audio signal (which is almost the ac3 but not). Then when setting dB to 0 the have the exact same signal (equivalent to ac3 passthrough), then the EMU is capturing silences.

So I think the behavior is due to "the licensing agreements at driver level" that the EMU support is talking about.

Moreover I understand your last post. And you think this is most probably a bug in kX because it would have been more expensive to disable it at hardware level than at driver level.

Eugene Gavrilov

Direct SPDIF recording is not supported on Emu 1010 hardware, that's why it is inactive and cannot be turned on. There are no SPDIF signals connected to the 10k2 chip, all SPDIF connectors are connected to FPGA chip instead, and are accessible by 10k2 chip via EMU32/EMU64 interface. This interface cannot be used for direct spdif recording.

E.

Eugene Gavrilov

By the way, DTS uses generic 44.1/16bit audio stream, there should be no problem with capturing it using original Emu drivers. (For kX, you will need to set up 44.1kHz frequency manually using kxctrl).

AC3 uses 48/16bit audio stream, but clears "Valid Audio" bit in the SPDIF header.
Unless I am mistaken, FPGA/Xilinx firmware detects this bit and if it is cleared, sends zeros to the 10k2 DSP chip.

Unfortunately, we do not have Xilinx/FPGA microcode, only binaries, and we cannot change anything in this code.

In order to verify this, check SPDIF state after you have connected any signal to your 1010 card (use "I/O Status" of the kX Mixer or kxctrl command-line options). Your previous post says:
spdif A: ffffffff 0 (ffffffff)
spdif B: ffffffff 0 (ffffffff)
spdif C: ffffffff 0 (ffffffff)

-- this means 10kX DSP chip does not see any SPDIF signals
and this is expected, because they are connected to Xilinx FPGA chip instead

audigy/audigy2 card would show you SPDIF status in this case, and would allow to record the data stream, even if it is 'invalid'

E.

Eugene Gavrilov

and, yes, "direct spdif recording' only supports 16 bit, not 24 bit. this is a hardware limitation of the 10k2 DSP...

cap51cap51

Hi,

Ok thx for those informations.

Do you know a list of audio cards that support "direct spdif recording" (with original/official drivers) ?

(I already know "RME HDSPe AIO" but it's around 800$)

Sincerely
Cap