kosketus

I've been using kX for a while now, and wouldn't be without it. My system:-

ASRock 4CoreDual-SATA2 motherboard
VIA PT880 Pro/VT8237S chipset
Intel Core2 Duo E4500 2.2 GHz
graphics card: Asus EN210 PCI-E X 4
GPU: GeForce 210 1024 MB
2048 MB DDR2 dual channel memory
Samsung SATA 160GB HDD
Samsung SATA 230GB HDD
Samsung Superwritemaster IDE multi-drive
Corsair HX520W PSU
Creative Audigy2 soundcard
O/s: XP Home SP3

I use my PC's audio for playing-back recorded (or streamed) material - losslessly whenever possible, and for digitising my collection of LPs and tapes (only in stereo). Nothing else. For these purposes I've been happily using an Audigy2 (SB0240) soundcard and kX ver. 3550, with the ProFX plugin ver. 311_48. I now plan on bringing back into service as a second soundcard the SB Live! (CT4620) that's been collecting dust ever since I replaced it with the Audigy, the idea being just to increase the number of stereo analogue inputs and so give me some much-needed increased flexilbility with cabling and connections.

I'm indebted to the writer of this thread (stupidly, I can't find my way back from it to wherever the link was posted and a search proved fruitless, so I can't name the O.P.):-
A-kX an Introduction
By following this, what I've so far done is
connected AD_EXT pins 31 SPDIF2 OUT AND 32 GND to AUD_EXT pins 15 SPDIF2 IN and 16 GND
connected AD_EXT pins 7 GND and 9 SPDIF 0 OUT to AUD_EXT edge-connector CD_SPDIF
then re-started the PC to see what the result would be.

It appears to be - nothing. Windows did not find the new hardware nor request any driver(s) - though it has installed two new devices (Creative SB Live! (WDM) and Creative SBLive! Gameport) without any help from me. If I left-click on the 'select card' "system tray" in the DSP it still presents no other choice than the SB0240 - even though that's numbered as '1' there's no '2'. Is there something I need to do to enable the CT4620? How do I cause 'line 2' and 'mic 2' to appear among the available rec sources in ADC? And if/when this is done, which physical jacks will they then correspond to - those on the CT4620 or those on the SB0240?

I've spent hours combing through the forum and reading but so far I haven't found any elemantary guidance on this. So I'm badly in need of tutoring, if someone could kindly provide it.

Russ

You need to re-install the kX driver for the 2nd card (probably the easiest way to go).

As for Line 2/MIC 2, ADC is only for AC97/UDA source's, Line 2/MIC 2 is located in the SRC plugins.

Each card will have it's own DSP, with plugins associated with that card (i.e. to access AC97 inputs of the Live! card, you would use ADC in the DSP window for the Live! card, etc).

janez

If the kx driver was already installed windows usually does the installation process automaticly for the second card, or if you swap cards
.
I guess you did find the popupmenu in the lower right corner of the dsp window? Just to exclude the possibility that its already all there and you haven´t seen it. Sometimes we are missing the obvious and keep searching in the wrong place, aren´t we.
So maybe you have to reinstall the driver manually.

Does the windows device manager show 2 kx cards?

Tyrsonswood

As Russ said you need to re-install KX for it to find the second card, windows won't do it automatically. Windows will install it's own version of the creative driver automatically, not KX. Once installed and re booted both cards will show up in device manager.

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kosketus

First of all, I'd like to say how impressed I've been (yet again!) by how helpful and friendly this forum is.

OK, I now have both soundcards installed (each using ProFX, in its own DSP), and both showing-up in 'Device Manager' as working normally. Some "dumb" questions:-

@RussI had understood that ADC was for all analogue inputs through physical connections from outside the computer, while Src was for all sources fed into the DSP via the PC bus. Yet physical connections made to the Line 2/Mic 2 jacks are routed through Src. So my understanding must have been wrong? (Actually, I don't understand what UDA means or is for, except that it's "better" than AC97).

I've now opened a DSP for the CT4620 (without the ADC plugin for the time being), and for Src have selected Line2/Mic2 in. So presumably when I connect some external device to either of those jacks on the CT4620 I'll be able to listen to it and/or record it (I use WinMM in k2lt)? Will anything sent through that route be re-sampled by the Audigy's hardware?

Secondly, is 'Mic in' only suitable for use for a mike, or haven't I read somewhere that it can be swapped (and so be enabled as another line in)? Is this correct and if so, how? But haven't I also read that if used in that way the sound quality is impaired? This is no big deal - I just wanted to cover all the angles.

kosketus

I've been testing the dual-card setup and can't get recording to work. A screenshot of the CT4620 DSP is attached

In Windows 'Sounds and Audio Devices' I've set kX Wave CT4670 0/1 as both Playback and Recording Device (I assume one or other of the two soundcards has to be selected for both, not any mixture of the two). (If I'm right, this would mean having to remember each time I switch between the two cards' DSPs to go back and change these settings, which would be a PITA). The devices amongst which Windows allows me to choose don't anyway include the one I actually need for recording through the CT4620's line-in - ie Line2/Mic2. And besides that I seem to remember that (before I was recently obliged to format my C: drive and set-up everything from scratch) the kX driver deactivated Windows. Assuming I remember right, why hasn't it been deactivated this time? I'm in need of help with sorting this whole kX/Windows thing out.

Anyway, the second soundcard was supposed to be to get an additional analogue input for recording so, as a test of this, having connected an audio cassette deck to the line-in jack of the CT4620, I tried to record a tape to my PC's hard disk using Audacity. In Audacity 'Preferences -> Devices' the settings mirror those in Windows 'Sounds and Audio Devices - ie recording devices don't recognise Line2/Mic2. 'Interface Host' is set to MME, though. Not surprisingly, no signal from the cassette deck registers either in Audacity's peak meter or in MX6's and of course no (monitored) sound emerges.

I've evidently missed something critical or else got something totally wrong - probably both. Can anyone set me straight please?

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Max M.

I suspect you just misunderstood the "Line2/Mic2" thing. "Line2/Mic2" is the input located at Live/Audigy's Drive Box (and you seems to be confusing it with "Line/Mic input of the second card" or somthing like that).
I.e. if it is the plain "Line/Mic" input (on the back of your CT4620) then ... it is still "plain Line/Mic" and you set it up as usual via "AC97" (or "ADC" of ProFX).

As for multicard setup - it's just as simple as:
- what input/output you have connected your cards with? Right - "SPDIF".
- So what input of your A2 you will get something from your CT4620 at? right again - "SPDIF"...

(etc. well, i'm not good at those kind of explanations - I guess guys here will provide you with more detailed setup steps further (you probably just misleaded them by "L2/M2" mentioning - so they thought your Live has the LiveDrive (but if it had - you could not connect your cards via AD_EXT)).

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Russ

That is the description of the FxBus and prolog plugins (not ADC and SRC)...

As for the rest, it is as Max said...

Personally, I am not sure that I would bother with these 2 cards since one is a 10k1 model (and without a drive bay on either card) you are not gaining a whole lot by doing this (really (as far as inputs go) you are only getting one extra analogue input). Though I guess if you need one extra input.... Also, if I was going to do it (with these 2 cards), I would probably go the other way. e.g. digital out of the Live! card to digital in of the A2 card, using the better card (the A2) for both playback and recording, and using the Live! card only for the extra analogue input (with maybe some effects applied to that signal).

kosketus

Max

"I suspect you just misunderstood the "Line2/Mic2" thing."

You're absolutely right! Thanks for putting me straight.

janez

The AC97 is an analog Modul on the card with a little analog Mixer and an AD Converter. So you can pick an analog source or mix them together. That includes the line in at the back of the card and the connectors on top of the card like the CD in and Aux in. The Audigy cards have a second AD converter called UDA and the ProFX ADC plugin provides access to that and the possibility to use different analog sources simultaniously on different ways.

Here is what Lex Nahumury, the author of ProFX, wrote in another thread:
The Line2/Mic2 on the other hand is an AD Converter on the frontmodul (Aux2) that uses a digital input on the DSP. Everything that enters the DSP goes through a rateconversion (src)

You can record as many analog signals simultaniously as you have converters on the recording card plus what you can transmit from the second card. You can hook up the cards with up to three spdif lines both ways. So if you really use everything that would be up to 6 stereo signals.

Max M.

Everything that enters the DSP goes through a rateconversion

Since this quote recently started to pile up from thread to thread (here Direct SPDIF Recording too)
I guess I should put certain comments on (because too straight-forward interpretation of this sentence may be quite confusing and misleading).

"Everything" there means "Anything that is not already at DSP's rate" (i.e. if some signal is already of DSP's clock/rate it is not resampled).
For example if your input signal is the one from those generic AC97 "Line/Mic" inputs (on the back of the card) the signal is not resampled on DSP entering - simply because it is already at DSP's rate (since the AC97 and its ADC/DAC are working at the same rate from the same clock).
Thus before you start to look for roundabout methods blindly guided by "Everything that enters...", make sure the issue (you're trying to overcome) is actually there.

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janez

Ok, for a converter that is integrated and clocked by the card it would make no sense. I guess the synth doesn´t need to be resampled, either. Although isn´t that an fx bus with a src, too? Are there any other exeptions?
As far as I know any other signal, any fx bus, any spdif in would always be resampled, even from 48khz to 48khz and even if clocked by the card.

Max M.

Are there any other exeptions? As far as I know any other signal, any fx bus, any spdif in would always be resampled,

Here's is the list of the resampled stuff:
* SPDIF Inputs (always)
* Anything entering the DSP from the host (i.e. sounds you play with your software) *if it is not at 48kHz*
* for A2 and family: Anything entering the DSP from p16v/"WaveHQ".
That's it.

any fx bus
I'm not sure what you mean by "fxbus" in this context (host/pc playback?) since the "fxbus" is the part of the DSP (basically it is the DSP input channel, working at the same clock) so the resampling (if any) takes place before FXBus.

----
My comment was intended to stress the fact that "Everything" does not mean "Totaly any and every thing ever" but just "Many (but not all)". So, sure, in context of "multicard setup" this sentence is just fine (since, aparently everything that goes from one card to another through SPDIF is resampled), but in general context a more specific tip would make more sence - especially considering the blurrish/fuzzy use of the "DSP" term itself. Some stuff (documentation and engineers) use the "DSP" to reffer to the particual block ("the DSP", aka "FX Engine" aka "fx8010") of the emu10k1/emu10k2 controllers, while the others tend to extend the "DSP" to cover the audio controller as a whole or even the soundcard itself entirely. So that one may actually read the thing as "everything that enters audio controller is resampled" or "soundcard resamples everything" which does not make any sense at all since the audio controller consists of many blocks working at different rate/clocks and the presence (or a lack) of resampling on the way of signal depends on many factors, especially when it comes to A2 (with its p16v) or E-DSP (with its external clocking) models.

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janez

Now thats interesting. I thought everything played by any Software through the driver thad ends up on an fx bus in an src plugin would be resampled, even if already played at 48khz.
Doesn´t that take a different technical approach to playing back something? Clocking vs resampling?

So how about the synth?

Maybe I´m confused with the terminology. I was refering to the fx busses that show up in the src plugin. I saw them as the interface between the operating system and the DSP and assumed everything that ends up there is resampled.

Channel, not channels? How does that work? Multiplexing?

In my, apparently kinda fuzzy, idea about kx hard- and software the dsp is basicly the 10kx chip or everything that is executed on it.
I appreciate your precision in terminology. Be patient with us, this stuff is complicated enough to get confused.

Max M.

I thought everything played by any Software through the driver thad ends up on an fx bus in an src plugin would be resampled, even if already played at 48khz.

Doh!

---

Just in case, I just though... Do you know that the "Src" name of the Pro FX plugin means "Source"? (Not "SRC" as in "sample rate converter", maybe that was confusing you? Well, just in case...

Doesn´t that take a different technical approach to playing back something? Clocking vs resampling?

Nope. All software playback interfaces are clocked by the driver which is clocked by the hardware (by the same clock as the DSP is, thus basically you can say it as "software is clocked by the DSP"). Driver just disables SRC for 48kHz formats and enables otherwise. The rest is the same.

So how about the synth?

Almost the same. The soundfont synth is a sort of abstraction actually, and from the hardware point of view: playing a single synth voice is identical to playing PCM/Wave file/buffer (just with additional processing/effects enforced by soundfont parameters). So if the synth plays a 48kHz sample at its root note (i.e. w/o pitch change) - nothing is resampled. (Pitch change is another story - algorithmically it's identical to resampling - but that's just how synths/samplers work by definition - i.e. not a hardware issue).

Maybe I´m confused with the terminology. I was refering to the fx busses that show up in the src plugin. I saw them as the interface between the operating system and the DSP and assumed everything that ends up there is resampled.

This is just an abstraction of course. A lot of things happen before sound from the operating system appears at fxbus pin(s).

Channel, not channels?

Channels, channel - depending on context:
One may mean FXBus module as a whole - then it's "channels" (but then you can't say "any fxbus" since there's only one).
But it is also fine to refer to particular fxbus channel also naming it "fxbus" (as in "FXBus0", "FXbus1" etc., thus "fxbus" -> "channel" and "any fxbus" would mean "any of 32 or 64 FXBus channels"). Purely linguistic subtlety I suppose.

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kosketus

Hi Russ

I do take your point as to the (seemingly trivial) functionality added by my setup. All the same, it does have two benefits:- firstly even only one additional analogue line-out is a 100% increase compared with before; secondly, it puts an idle Live! card to good use.

And (correct me if I'm wrong) won't I also be able to use either or both of the Live's line-outs too - presumably the rear out as first choice (or is there no difference on the 10k1)?I've reversed the direction of the connections, so that now they're:- AUD_EXT SPDIF2 OUT to AD_EXT SPDIF0 IN and AUD_EXT SPDIF0 OUT to SPDIF edge-connector.

For the time being I have not so far activated the CT4620 card this time; it's installed physically in the case but I've chosen not to install its driver yet - preferring to take one step at a time.

Now comes the embarrassing part. I assumed that this would result in the SB0240 functioning exactly as before I began with all this - and so it does, except that I get no sound through my amplifier As the attached screenshot shows, the signal is registering in MX6; I've double-checked the physical connections, and tried with 'Swap front and rear mode' in kX DSP toggled both on and off (just in case). I'm at my wits' end to know what else I can do. I appreciate that it's difficult for anyone not actually sitting where I am to try to guess what I have or haven't done but are you able to suggest any possible causes?

One odd thing: if after booting my PC I bring up Windows 'Master Mixer' I find that the kX1/MicIn and kX0/LineIn volume control sliders are muted by default and, if I unmute them, next time I boot they're muted again. But unmuting either of them makes no difference so far as getting any sound out of my amp is concerned.

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kosketus

Just one observation, from a standpoint of almost complete ignorance:- in hindsight, it was perhaps semantically unfortunate that "src" was chosen as the name for this particular ProFX plugin, because of its potential for being confused with "SRC" widely-understood as short for "sample rate conversion". One remedy might be to adopt as "practice" in a kX context that the acronym for sample rate conversion *always* be capitalized, and the name of the ProFX plugin *always* be lower-case (which is the normal usage anyway - but not invariably so, I notice). Even better might be to change the plugin's name but that might be taking a sledgehammer to crack a walnut.

Russ

Confirm that your speakers are connected to the rear jack on the card, and confirm that the speaker connecter is fully inserted into the jack (e.g. redo speaker connection).

Beyond the above:
Try doing a Reset AC97 (on AC97 page of kxmixer) and reloading your DSP config.
You could also try a Reset Hardware Settings (from Settings menu).
If nothing else works, you might try re-seating the card in the PCI slot.

As for the line outs, yes of course you can use them as well... (I was speaking mainly of analogue inputs, as that is the more limited resource (and I got the impression that you were thinking you were gonna get more than one extra analogue input by doing this)).

Russ

10k2 models only, right?

Max M.

10k2 models only, right?

Ah, right! Thanks for pointing that out (I almost forgot that because of not using 10k1 models for a while).
So the important correction:
In emu10k1, the SRC is not fully bypassed even if it is set to the state documented as "bypass". So resampling is applied to "a software input" even if its format is 48kHz and its clock is of DSP

(That was exposed as a hardware bug which they never fixed for k1 - there were rumours of certain emu10k1 revisions working as expected (i.e. without resampling) - but that never was confirmed by tests).

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kosketus

It's beginning to look as if my little experiment was under a curse from the start because, try as I might, I can no longer get my Audigy2 to feed sound to my amp as it was happily doing before.

I've now restored everything physically to the state it was in before I roped-in the Live! card. I've removed and re-seated the A2 in its pci slot. I'm certain that the cables are properly connected. In parallel I've uninstalled/reinstalled kX driver 3550 (more than once) and have of course cleared the DSP and re-loaded my ProFX setup, several times. (I also did the AC97 Reset). Still no sound. So I wonder if I now have a defective A2 card. But it can't be totally dead because if it were how could any signal from an internal (Wave) source be registered by MX6?

And, in case you're wondering, there's nothing wrong with any of the components or connections downstream from my preamp (I'm playing an LP through my preamp/amp and speakers right now, bypassing the PC completely). So that eliminates every single link except the one between the A2's line-out jack amd the preamp's phono-in sockets. I suppose it's always possible that my Linn preamp could have developed an internal fault but that seems a less likely suspect than the A2's flimsy mini-jack.

EDIT
I've just remembered that I had my TV audio-in also connected to the A2's line-out jack (before I disconnected it in the process of testing the soundness of all the connections, and haven't subsequently re-connected). I had got no sound out of the A2 to my TV either, so that definitely rules-out my preamp's phono-in sockets as a possible culprit.

Has anyone got any further thoughts I wonder, before I write-off my Audigy2?

Tyrsonswood

If you still have both cards in make sure the A2 is selected as the default output device in Windows audio panel.... the live may be selected without you knowing it. I've run into that before. Even with just the A2 in there it's worth checking.... Windows is rather odd as to what it sets as default.

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Russ

I suppose you tried the other line outs of the A2 as well?
Did you try a Reset Hardware Settings (oops, it is "Reset Device Settings") from the kX Settings menu?

As for the DirectSound error, I am not sure...
Failed to initialize DirectSound

Maybe try a different version of kx... like 3545b?

kosketus

Confession is reputedly good for the soul, so here goes...

I'ts suddenly occurred to me that I've omitted to take on board - still less to mention - one thing that's been happening that might hold the key to the problem. Not every time I've booted-up, but sometimes, an error-message has appeared saying something along the lines "kX is unable to initialise..." - initialise what? - I can't remember! Could it have been "Direct Sound", or "DirectShow"... ? (I'm not able to replicate it on demand, alas).

It's mortifying to think that I took so little notice of this - I just clicked on 'OK' and kX continued to load normally (to all appearances at least).

Does this give anyone a clue as to what I could check or change? No such error-message ever appeared before my problems began, so I suspect there must be a strong connection. (All the more stupid to have ignored it but there we are, I'm afraid. Mea culpa).

Russ

BTW: I forget to reply about kX0/kX1 sliders...
Without a custom DSP config designed to use them, they have no effect, but, I do not think they should be muting themselves (muted by default is normal) after unmuting them and adjusting the volume and rebooting (I just did a quick test (3550 on XP) and they remembered thier settings through a reboot for me).

Just to rule out any issues with wave playback (even though you do see a signal on the peak meter), you might try using the Wave Generator 3 plugin to generate audio from within the DSP and see it it outputs to your amp (start with low volume level in plugin).

kosketus

Actually, no. But I will when I can.Yes.It appears from this, and linked, thread(s) that this loss of sound is quite a common occurrence and that it's often ascribed to a problem with DirectX - which is only curable by uninstalling DirectX using one of the available tools and then reinstalling it. That's what I plan on doing next (but not tonight).

Meanwhile I've discovered it to be impossible to get my motherboard's onboard ALC888 codec to function. The Realtek HD driver installs but 'Device Manager' reports that the device cannot start. My guess is that the cause is likely to be the same as is causing the problem with kX, and that also points to DirectX.I tried this, and it doesn't. So - DirectX again.

At least it doesn't seem to be the Audigy that's faulty, which would be a relief.

Russ

I am not sure that the 2 issues (no sound, and the DirectX error) are related...

Regarding the DirectX error, I did not see anyone in the other thread actually say that they did not get any audio. On the contrary, it seemed (to me) that other than the error (and some problems with the OSD), things were working OK (though I imagine they would have had a problem with DirectX audio if they had tested it).

Also, ordinary wave playback does not use DirectX, and generating audio from a plugin in the DSP (i.e. the Wave Generator) is seperate from any OS functionality (aside from loading/configuring the plugin, etc) and thus is not related to DirectX.

I would start by testing the other analog outputs on the card, as that should be a simple test and can rule out any issues with the mini-jack for analog rear.

kosketus

(an update)

Uninstalling DirectX with DXEradicator was disastrous, because the rollback using the Win XP cd-rom didn't work. Nothing I could do was able to restore DirectX to its former condition - and I tried just about everything.

However all is now well - or nearly - due to my having discovered a backup of my system-disk which pre-dated all this business by three weeks (and was supposed to have been over-written but wasn't) so I was able to regress to that former system state.

Only one hitch: no audio generated from within the DSP is reaching my amp and speakers. Neither the speaker test nor Wave Generator produce any sound; speaker test doesn't register for any speaker in MX6's meters (is it supposed to?) whereas WG does. Audio from wave devices and from ADC is as normal.

Russ

I would guess that is just a DSP config issue, but it is impossible to say for sure without knowing the DSP config used when testing.

The speaker test uses FxBus 2/3, 4/5, and 6/7, so make sure that is what you are testing. The audio is fairly short, and as such would only show up on the peak meter for a split second (and the speaker test applet seems to hog the CPU a bit during testing (especially when using the "TEST" button), which might also prevent you from seeing the signal on the peak meters).
Note: The speaker test does use DirectX (i.e. DirectSound3D).

As for the Wave Generator, which output are you testing? What frequency and volume, etc?

Double check MX6's configuration for each channel you are using, etc.

[EDIT] corrected the above FxBus info.

kosketus

Hi

I've loaded and connected those three sources. With Wave Generator I've used both Sinus and Sawtooth (separately), level around -50db and freq 3226, connected to ch in5L. In MX6 I've enabled ch 2, 3, 4 and 5. My (stereo) speakers are connected to Rear Out and I've not changed that.

Still no sound from either (what am I not seeing...?).

(Btw, I found that Windows Master Mixer had once again muted kX0/LineIn and Synth sliders, but un-muting them made no difference amyway)