padoflas

Hi all...

About 3 years back, everyone was hoping and praying for the APS drivers to be released for Win2k (and more recently WinXP).

Last year EMU officially released a 2k/XP compatible driver for the APS. Why has nobody tried to make these drivers work for SBLive?

kxProject was/is a great idea and is still the only solution for taking full advantage of the EMU10k chip. After so many revisions though, it is still lacking the stability, simplicity and attractive user interface of the APS drivers, not to mention that Soundfonts sound completely different between the kX and the APS/Live drivers.

Why is there no interest?

electropop

I'm not ready to give up the wonderful mixer panel, nor (more importantly) the support for SoundFont 2.1 that APSLive has, but it's getting so I will have to upgrade to XP in order to upgrade my apps, such as Reaktor.

Please, APSLive for XP!

ROBSCIX

Beacuse KX , is pretty much what we all want. YOu want to be able to put these APS driver in a SB Live! card is that correct?..why?,KX drivers give new life to an old SB Live! I know becuase that what I use. IF you don't mind me asking what is so good abou these APS drivers? are you sure there is no hacks?..or something to that effect?

franx

I can tell you one very good reason.

The APS drivers sound far better than the KX drivers.
Especially on the rear speaker outs of the SBlive card (i.e.output 7/8).

In fact , the Creative (WMD) drivers even sound better than the KX drivers,
but nowhere near what the APS drivers sound like.

I have had to retain my Win98SE system on a dual boot system in order
to be able to go back to it to listen to quality sound music, with the APS drivers
driving the rear speaker output (I2S) of the SB live.

If you haven't heard it, I suggest you give it a listen. I think you'll see what I mean

Maddogg6

I used APS drivers on my SBLive Value (pre-5.1) - and I did love the simplicity to power ratio. I basically set them up and forgot about the drivers - in KX, Im constantly in the mixer/dsp.

I too was dissappointed when I upgraded to XP that the APSLive wasnt ported to XP - but, I have NO regrets - once you understand KX - you'll realize the additional power KX introduces.

While there was NO learning curve with APSLive - KX does require some learning (understanding the DSP helps) but is worth the efforts.

I never notice a quality difference per se. Im thinking its the swap front/rear codec thing in KX that was noticed. I did also notice some slight level differences and a slight EQ difference as KX seems to have a bit more on the high end than CL or APS. But I see this as a good thing (cuz Id rather choke off the high end than amplify it) and its more of preference/taste than 'quality'.

Ill assume you didnt 'tweak' KX enough (as its easy to 'tweak' in APS, and it takes time to learn to do in KX) to get a fair 'quality' comparison, as you mentioned no aspects of 'quality', nor any measurements /data to make your point.

The APS site even refers you here to KX with the exclamation:
'KX ROCKS'

Thats prolly why they didnt hack the XP APS drivers - KX is better anyway.

Keep in mind I used APSLive for 2+ years and KX for ~3 months.

Granted KX isnt with out some bugs, but nothing I cant live with.
APS was solid as a rock in win98 tho.

Like everthing else in life we make choices based on what we can and cannot live with.
I can live without APS now that I have KX in XP. BUT, if I was still in win98 - Id prolly still use APS.

Sture

I also loved the simplicity of the APSLive drivers and graphical interface and would very much like to see the XP version amended for use with Live/Audigy 1,2. But kX is amazing once you get to understand it, but it takes a lot of reading and trial and error.

I have not seen X-Fi mixer/user interface in real life, but screenshots available from tests look similar to the APS user interface. I do not know if it would be possible for someone talented in programming to come up with something similar to use with kX. It would certainly be a great help for new members of the kX- family.

Sture

trevbushell

hi
i have an APS card and used it with win98. it was fine and easy to use...
i have found NO drivers for it to work with wins XP
so i resorted to kx... and boy am i glad....

BUT

i have found personally that kx is SOOOO much better... its more usable, sounds better quality wise and basically gives all the power into the users hands rather than having (for example) only 5 submixes in aps which i found limiting.

my songs have improved mix wise 200% since using them!

ok you have to learn kx but its so worth it for the usability! Im free within the dsp to do almost anything set up wise.

so in conclusion:

kx rocks!!
APS is ok !!

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Maddogg6

One HUGE factor I absolutly love about KX is its small foot print on any system - I bet the CL X-Fi driver package is a whole DVD by now - 5 GB for a pretty interface - not to mention exploding your registry... I can live without the CL driver 'bloat'.

That nice X-Fi interface prolly drags your resources down - which will lead to performance problems in audio as well as anything else. CL figures everyone has a 4GHz dual CPU w/ 4GB of DDR2, 1TB of HDD space....... which is whats just about needed to 'forgive' the performance drop of CL drivers.

franx

Maybe I'm missing something, I'm not sure I understand what kind of tweeks you're referring to, that could improve the sound quality.

I'm sorry but I did'nt make it very clear as to what I meant by better quality sound, so I'll have another try.

I've been using Cubase and SBLive on Win98 for years to create music. At first when I used the original CL drivers I found the sound to be quite good but ever so slightly harsh. Then when I got the APS drivers that harshness disappeared. I always used the AC97 front outputs since I didn't know about the I2S rear outputs.

This was all well and good for my music and stuff that was recorded by friends on similar setups. But when I played commercial CDs or MP3s on any software player, most of them sounded pretty naff and harsh and you wouldn't bother listening to them. They also sounded much the same on most medium range CD and MP3 players.

I couldn't understand this and couldn't find out why. So I had to accept it as a fact of life and for the most part didn't bother playing them.

Then a friend told me about the Kx project (which was ported to Win98), so I tried it.
On CDs and MP3s it sounded very harsh on the AC97 out, but a lot better on the rear I2S out, but still a little harsh but interesting. So having learnt from Kx about the I2S outs, I tried to send the APS drivers to it. It worked.....by sending the Aps main out to output 7/8

My life changed that day. For although at first it didn't sound paricularly impressive i.e. quite plain, flat, not very dynamic and much lower level, there was no hint of harshness and all the CDs and MP3s suddenly acquired that illusive quality which I haven't heard since the introduction of CDs back in the 70s. They sounded just like analogue vinyl but without the scratches and noise etc.

Since then (about 6 months ago) I've been listening to CDs and MP3s of all kinds at every opportunity. Sometimes for days on end and thoroughly enjoying every minute of it. Others who've heard it had the same reaction as me. They don't talk about the sound quality, but about the music, and they won't let you turn it off.

Cubase, i.e home recordings, sound better on it but its not quite so noticable.

So I now judge the sound quality of a system on how well it reproduces commercial CDs and MP3s

I recently got WinXP and tried Kx again but it was right back to the old syndrome.
So I think that APS (WMD) drivers might do the same for XP etc.

Maddogg6

My 'tweaks' i was refering to was:
1) the use of the FRONT /REAR swap switch (to use the better codec, which wasn't acknowledged in the original post)
2) adjust levels and EQ.

Did you report your findings in the 'KX bug reports' forum? - along with your card model, maybe theres a known issue/ work around for your particular circumstance/problem/card.

Ah hem...
CD's in the 70's - what planet was this on - if your a professional with access to that kind of technology durring THAT era - Id think you have that Multi DSP powered lexicon system instead of a $25 sound card using a 'hacked' driver.
*switches OFF 'Sarcasm'* - sorry I couldnt resist .

I will admit - KX IS a bit harsher - I just didnt notice such a hugh difference between drivers, other than levels and slight eq, as the hardware is what *primarily* dictates performance. Did you perform any MODs on your card/live drive?

Also, I hear as big, if not bigger differences (than with drivers) in MP3 decoding depending on what player I use or the decoder used (in winamp for instance - the FFDshow (Using directshow) 'sounds' better to me than the wimamp default MP3 decoder. Did your 'Software Player' change in anyway that could account for 'stacked' or exagerated differences? Ive played with DSP plugins in winamp and forgot about them later.

I doubt EMU liked us using THEIR free software to make a 'Consumer' sound card *almost* perform like their 'Pro' card. I HAVE to beleive EMU has intentionally complicated hacking it again. - Prolly why it took them SOOO long to release XP drivers.

All in all, my point is, I seriously doupt APSLive in XP will ever come, unless there are significant advantages for the 'hackers'. You'll be better off learning how to squeeze the sound out of what ever driver you choose to use if you must go to XP. My vote is - KX. its way more flexible and more likely to accomplish than the CL drivers. Otherwise I fear you have to stay in win98 or get an APS card to use the XP drivers with.

RobSCIX - APSLive are VXD based drivers, which as I understand, isnt possible/usable in XP. - I dont know what differences there are between VXD and WDM - but I imagine coding is significantly different.

trevbushell

maddopg are you saying that there are aps drivers for the aps card for wins XP?

hmm and what isd this " the use of the FRONT /REAR swap switch (to use the better codec, which wasn't acknowledged in the original post)" have i missed something here in my setup of kx with my aps card?

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franx

I don't believe I've got a problem as such.

I believe that on any ordinary sound card with any ordinary drivers, (this includes SBLive, even with APS drivers, when using the AC97codec) and any ordinary CD or MP3 player, commercial sound recordings sound terrible. Most people have got so used to it by now that they don't even realize or notice it.

A great many people noticed it when CDs were first introduced (on this planet, whenever that was(sarcastic remark ignored[img]images/smilies/smilie.gif[/img] )) and even today vinyl sales are still on the increase.

What "was" wrong with my system is the same thing that's wrong with most PC systems and CD and MP3 players. To my mind it's the DAC and it's drivers.

I used to think it was that digital sound just lacked the warmth of analogue sound, but since I've found this combination I realized that digital can sound every bit as warm as analogue ever did.
No
As I said everything sounded much the same on any 'software player'
I agree but we live in hope
Looks like I'll have to keep my Win98 'cause I don't think I can afford an APS card and who knows what that might sound like anyway.

dj_stick

if you have the APS the swap front/rear is of no use

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franx

I have the APS Drivers and the SBLive card

trevbushell

thnx dj

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Maddogg6

Trev:
And yes, according to original post - XP drivers for APS are out there.

trevbushell

anyone know where they are, id like to have a look at them!

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Maddogg6

http://www.emu.com/support/files/dow...654&Platform=1

I went to EMU - clicked support - Software and manuals - Digital Audio - Legacy Products.

There are many goodies there too you may be interested in??

DIDDLES

i have to agree with franx...i'm a professional sound engineer and the sound out of the sblive using the hacked aps drivers..through the rear output , is the best warmest quality sound i have ever heard from digital music.... apart from the really expensive digital to analogue converters... if only the people who hacked the aps drivers could rehack the xp ones.... ah well.

Sture

Hello,
is there anybody who knows why the apps files for XP are the same as the ones for Windows 2000?

I am thinking about buying an APS 2nd hand and if I do, what are the drivers and Apps I need to download?

Thanks,
Sture

Maddogg6

there is xp and win2k drivers there.

Sture

Hello,

yes I know, but when I download the XP apps they are the same as the W2k apps. It is the same with the SF2 pacth file, it is also the same file for both W2k and XP. From what I can see it is only the drivers that are different.

So I guess I will need the XP drivers and W2k Apps and SF2 patch?
Thanks in advance!

Sture