Other Drivers like KX Drivers (for other hardware)

Chester01 · Oct 22, 2004, 03:46 PM

Does anyone know of any OTHER drivers which are similar in funtionality to the KX drivers but for other hardware? I mean drivers that are user created here, possibly for Nvidia cards or something along those lines. I am not talking about the Omega drivers here, which are mostly pre-moded nvidia drivers (not that I dislike the Omegas) but think about the performance you could get out of the Nvidia cards if you could custom configure their DSP's or whatever they use?!

**dj_stick** · Oct 22, 2004, 11:21 PM

there was something ragarding using opengl drivers to turn the nvidia/ati gpu into a DSP

Samir · Oct 23, 2004, 02:08 PM

WTF?!?

dj, any links?!?

Daniel Drummond · Oct 23, 2004, 04:16 PM

Well, I don't know of any other drivers like Kx, but for ATI cards you use Rage3D Tweak (www.rage3d.com) to tweak lots of settings (although not as powerful as direct dsp access)...

Chester01 · Oct 23, 2004, 11:36 PM

dj_stick, you remember that driver you were talking about? It may be worth looking into....

**dj_stick** · Oct 23, 2004, 11:51 PM

sorry i don't remember much about it, search the forum for it - i think there was a link at one stage

Chester01 · Oct 24, 2004, 01:57 AM

was it under the kx fourm or the entire driverheaven fourm?

**dj_stick** · Oct 24, 2004, 02:18 AM

kX i think

Chester01 · Oct 24, 2004, 04:00 PM

http://www.hardwareheaven.com/showthre...p+%22opengl%22

so far thats all ive found related to creating a dsp for graphics cards (Has a link in it)

Tiger M · Oct 24, 2004, 04:25 PM

You should know that GPUs are not DSPs, they are more like standart CPUs, but oriented towards graphics. Brook is not a driver, but an extension to ANSI C, that allows parallel data streaming to both the CPU and GPU and the use of the GPU for standart operations - in other words it does not transform it into a DSP, afaik.

Chester01 · Oct 24, 2004, 04:59 PM

so could i use my gpu as a cpu? or would any software i run need to be re-coded to use the gpu instructions specifically? (almost like having dual processors?)

EDIT: I found this link; it talks about this somewhat

http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boa...ML/010116.html

now we just need Eugene to learn graphics processing lol

Chester01 · Oct 24, 2004, 06:02 PM

I know that this may all sound quite stupid to many of you, but here is how i see it: If it were possible to "transform" sound samples into "images" we could then on the GPU apply some sort of transformation to that image then convert it back to a sound. it could be done in 32 bit theoretically too, 32 bit color SO each pixel in an image could be a 32 bit sample of sound. I hope i explained what im thinking fairly well and probably from a programing point of view it sounds like a pain in the ass but it would be cool if it can be done.

http://www.visualprosthesis.com/javoice.htm <-converts greyscale image to sound

GPU Reverb/effects
1.Sample sound into an image, 32bit sound ->32bit color
2.Send "image" to graphics card to be transformed: if you wanted an echo effect, you could take one sample and move it down 100 millisecconds but transform it to lower the "volume" by 25% or something like that so you would not get a feedback loop.
3.Once the transformation is applied, read the transformed image from the graphics card back to the computer, the CPU or the sound card would understand the image to be sound information (which it really is) and output the sound to speakers.

^this is the meathod i think may work. If possible we could have quite complex dsp effects.

Chester01 · Oct 24, 2004, 06:07 PM

http://www.bionicfx.com/ (DAMMIT!!!!!!!!! (its been thought of before)

it sitll would be cool to do within KX tho

http://www.gpgpu.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=63 another link with more links and discussion

a very cool way of looking at reverb effects:
http://www.pjwstk.edu.pl/~s1525/index.html#msc

kokoon · Oct 24, 2004, 07:39 PM

afaik the biggest problem with all that is downstreaming the processed data from the graphics card's memory, since the agp wasnt designed with that direction of data in mind.

Chester01 · Oct 24, 2004, 07:44 PM

ive noticed that too (as being the major problem) people have achieved 32 ms latency though (16ms of that is going back from the graphics card to the rest of the computer)

Tiger M · Oct 24, 2004, 08:31 PM

Of course it is possible to use a GPU for dsp purposes, the same way a CPU is used for dsp. For the cost of an average quality modern graphics card you can buy say 4 Audigys, more that you'll ever need. And besides, I doubt that a GPU can maintain the real-time operation of a DSP. For instance the fixed latency of the Emu10kX DSPs is 0.02ms, which is considered real-time operation, and the best a CPU can maintain is 2.66ms, which is not quite real-time.

And don't forget that DSPs are used for the most demanding image processing tasks in the world (for different types of scientiffic simulations, space exploration etc.), not GPUs, which are just a consumer compromise.

Chester01 · Oct 24, 2004, 08:47 PM

true, but would it not be beneficial (if possible) to have something like bionicfx http://www.bionicfx.com/ capability with the kx drivers?

Tiger M · Oct 24, 2004, 09:37 PM

Yes, of course it will be cool

. But note how coplicated the AVEX transformation is (the graphic at the bionicfx web site) and this is a quite innovative approach, not proven yet to be very useful and of course it is still kept more or less secret (there is no download link and you can order the software only via e-mail), which is not very convincing.

I personally would prefer to buy two more Audigys, connect them digitally and enjoy a cool and imho pro music workstation, with kX of course.

Chester01 · Oct 24, 2004, 11:05 PM

(I am gonna try and move away from the idea of the GPU doing effects until that guy releases the beta and we see how well it works, Btw, you cant dl the plugin from bionicfx yet because it isnt released

)

anyways
http://www.pjwstk.edu.pl/~s1525/index.html#msc

did you check that site out? try downloading the guys program
http://www.pjwstk.edu.pl/~s1525/prg/...uacoustics.zip (you can change the music in it as long as you use a mono wave file; edit the config.ini) anyways, may be a cool idea for future reverb effects (design a "room" and then have the computer raytrace the sound, giving you your delay times) maybe for the next UFX release

Oct 22, 2004, 03:46 PM	#1
Chester01 HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: St. Cloud, MN Posts: 492 Rep Power: 0	Other Drivers like KX Drivers (for other hardware) Does anyone know of any OTHER drivers which are similar in funtionality to the KX drivers but for other hardware? I mean drivers that are user created here, possibly for Nvidia cards or something along those lines. I am not talking about the Omega drivers here, which are mostly pre-moded nvidia drivers (not that I dislike the Omegas) but think about the performance you could get out of the Nvidia cards if you could custom configure their DSP's or whatever they use?! __________________ COMP: Dual Intel PIII 733 Mhz; GeForce 4 Ti 4600; 1.128 Gb RAM; SB0350 (Audigy 2 ZS Platnium) STEREO(I UPGRADED):Crown Audio K1 and K2 amplifiers (4000 watts at .1% THD ), JL 13w7 Subwoofer (6.5 CF) (2) 18" PR's, Klipsch SB-1's, some cement blocks for speaker stands...

Oct 23, 2004, 02:08 PM	#3
Samir kX Lover Join Date: Jan 2003 Posts: 520 Rep Power: 0	WTF?!? dj, any links?!? __________________ MU3NKA 3A HAPO6!

Oct 23, 2004, 04:16 PM	#4
Daniel Drummond DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Brazil Posts: 1,137 Rep Power: 0	Well, I don't know of any other drivers like Kx, but for ATI cards you use Rage3D Tweak (www.rage3d.com) to tweak lots of settings (although not as powerful as direct dsp access)... __________________ www.palcomp3.com.br/ed

Oct 23, 2004, 11:36 PM	Thread Starter #5
Chester01 HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: St. Cloud, MN Posts: 492 Rep Power: 0	dj_stick, you remember that driver you were talking about? It may be worth looking into.... __________________ COMP: Dual Intel PIII 733 Mhz; GeForce 4 Ti 4600; 1.128 Gb RAM; SB0350 (Audigy 2 ZS Platnium) STEREO(I UPGRADED):Crown Audio K1 and K2 amplifiers (4000 watts at .1% THD ), JL 13w7 Subwoofer (6.5 CF) (2) 18" PR's, Klipsch SB-1's, some cement blocks for speaker stands...

Oct 24, 2004, 01:57 AM	Thread Starter #7
Chester01 HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: St. Cloud, MN Posts: 492 Rep Power: 0	was it under the kx fourm or the entire driverheaven fourm? __________________ COMP: Dual Intel PIII 733 Mhz; GeForce 4 Ti 4600; 1.128 Gb RAM; SB0350 (Audigy 2 ZS Platnium) STEREO(I UPGRADED):Crown Audio K1 and K2 amplifiers (4000 watts at .1% THD ), JL 13w7 Subwoofer (6.5 CF) (2) 18" PR's, Klipsch SB-1's, some cement blocks for speaker stands...

Oct 24, 2004, 04:00 PM	Thread Starter #9
Chester01 HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: St. Cloud, MN Posts: 492 Rep Power: 0	http://www.hardwareheaven.com/showthre...p+%22opengl%22 so far thats all ive found related to creating a dsp for graphics cards (Has a link in it) __________________ COMP: Dual Intel PIII 733 Mhz; GeForce 4 Ti 4600; 1.128 Gb RAM; SB0350 (Audigy 2 ZS Platnium) STEREO(I UPGRADED):Crown Audio K1 and K2 amplifiers (4000 watts at .1% THD ), JL 13w7 Subwoofer (6.5 CF) (2) 18" PR's, Klipsch SB-1's, some cement blocks for speaker stands...

Oct 24, 2004, 04:25 PM	#10
Tiger M kX user Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 851 Rep Power: 0	You should know that GPUs are not DSPs, they are more like standart CPUs, but oriented towards graphics. Brook is not a driver, but an extension to ANSI C, that allows parallel data streaming to both the CPU and GPU and the use of the GPU for standart operations - in other words it does not transform it into a DSP, afaik. __________________ Miss you, Steve...

Oct 24, 2004, 04:59 PM	Thread Starter #11
Chester01 HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: St. Cloud, MN Posts: 492 Rep Power: 0	so could i use my gpu as a cpu? or would any software i run need to be re-coded to use the gpu instructions specifically? (almost like having dual processors?) EDIT: I found this link; it talks about this somewhat http://www.opengl.org/discussion_boa...ML/010116.html now we just need Eugene to learn graphics processing lol __________________ COMP: Dual Intel PIII 733 Mhz; GeForce 4 Ti 4600; 1.128 Gb RAM; SB0350 (Audigy 2 ZS Platnium) STEREO(I UPGRADED):Crown Audio K1 and K2 amplifiers (4000 watts at .1% THD ), JL 13w7 Subwoofer (6.5 CF) (2) 18" PR's, Klipsch SB-1's, some cement blocks for speaker stands... Last edited by Chester01; Oct 24, 2004 at 05:29 PM.

Oct 24, 2004, 06:02 PM	Thread Starter #12
Chester01 HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: St. Cloud, MN Posts: 492 Rep Power: 0	I know that this may all sound quite stupid to many of you, but here is how i see it: If it were possible to "transform" sound samples into "images" we could then on the GPU apply some sort of transformation to that image then convert it back to a sound. it could be done in 32 bit theoretically too, 32 bit color SO each pixel in an image could be a 32 bit sample of sound. I hope i explained what im thinking fairly well and probably from a programing point of view it sounds like a pain in the ass but it would be cool if it can be done. http://www.visualprosthesis.com/javoice.htm <-converts greyscale image to sound GPU Reverb/effects 1.Sample sound into an image, 32bit sound ->32bit color 2.Send "image" to graphics card to be transformed: if you wanted an echo effect, you could take one sample and move it down 100 millisecconds but transform it to lower the "volume" by 25% or something like that so you would not get a feedback loop. 3.Once the transformation is applied, read the transformed image from the graphics card back to the computer, the CPU or the sound card would understand the image to be sound information (which it really is) and output the sound to speakers. ^this is the meathod i think may work. If possible we could have quite complex dsp effects. __________________ COMP: Dual Intel PIII 733 Mhz; GeForce 4 Ti 4600; 1.128 Gb RAM; SB0350 (Audigy 2 ZS Platnium) STEREO(I UPGRADED):Crown Audio K1 and K2 amplifiers (4000 watts at .1% THD ), JL 13w7 Subwoofer (6.5 CF) (2) 18" PR's, Klipsch SB-1's, some cement blocks for speaker stands...

Oct 24, 2004, 06:07 PM	Thread Starter #13
Chester01 HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: St. Cloud, MN Posts: 492 Rep Power: 0	http://www.bionicfx.com/ (DAMMIT!!!!!!!!! (its been thought of before) it sitll would be cool to do within KX tho http://www.gpgpu.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=63 another link with more links and discussion a very cool way of looking at reverb effects: http://www.pjwstk.edu.pl/~s1525/index.html#msc __________________ COMP: Dual Intel PIII 733 Mhz; GeForce 4 Ti 4600; 1.128 Gb RAM; SB0350 (Audigy 2 ZS Platnium) STEREO(I UPGRADED):Crown Audio K1 and K2 amplifiers (4000 watts at .1% THD ), JL 13w7 Subwoofer (6.5 CF) (2) 18" PR's, Klipsch SB-1's, some cement blocks for speaker stands... Last edited by Chester01; Oct 24, 2004 at 07:35 PM.

Oct 24, 2004, 07:39 PM	#14
kokoon DriverHeaven Addict Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: slovenia Posts: 269 Rep Power: 0	afaik the biggest problem with all that is downstreaming the processed data from the graphics card's memory, since the agp wasnt designed with that direction of data in mind. __________________ [kokoon]

Oct 24, 2004, 07:44 PM	Thread Starter #15
Chester01 HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: St. Cloud, MN Posts: 492 Rep Power: 0	ive noticed that too (as being the major problem) people have achieved 32 ms latency though (16ms of that is going back from the graphics card to the rest of the computer) __________________ COMP: Dual Intel PIII 733 Mhz; GeForce 4 Ti 4600; 1.128 Gb RAM; SB0350 (Audigy 2 ZS Platnium) STEREO(I UPGRADED):Crown Audio K1 and K2 amplifiers (4000 watts at .1% THD ), JL 13w7 Subwoofer (6.5 CF) (2) 18" PR's, Klipsch SB-1's, some cement blocks for speaker stands...

Oct 24, 2004, 08:31 PM	#16
Tiger M kX user Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 851 Rep Power: 0	Of course it is possible to use a GPU for dsp purposes, the same way a CPU is used for dsp. For the cost of an average quality modern graphics card you can buy say 4 Audigys, more that you'll ever need. And besides, I doubt that a GPU can maintain the real-time operation of a DSP. For instance the fixed latency of the Emu10kX DSPs is 0.02ms, which is considered real-time operation, and the best a CPU can maintain is 2.66ms, which is not quite real-time. And don't forget that DSPs are used for the most demanding image processing tasks in the world (for different types of scientiffic simulations, space exploration etc.), not GPUs, which are just a consumer compromise. __________________ Miss you, Steve...

Oct 24, 2004, 08:47 PM	Thread Starter #17
Chester01 HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: St. Cloud, MN Posts: 492 Rep Power: 0	true, but would it not be beneficial (if possible) to have something like bionicfx http://www.bionicfx.com/ capability with the kx drivers? __________________ COMP: Dual Intel PIII 733 Mhz; GeForce 4 Ti 4600; 1.128 Gb RAM; SB0350 (Audigy 2 ZS Platnium) STEREO(I UPGRADED):Crown Audio K1 and K2 amplifiers (4000 watts at .1% THD ), JL 13w7 Subwoofer (6.5 CF) (2) 18" PR's, Klipsch SB-1's, some cement blocks for speaker stands...

Oct 24, 2004, 09:37 PM	#18
Tiger M kX user Join Date: Apr 2004 Posts: 851 Rep Power: 0	Yes, of course it will be cool. But note how coplicated the AVEX transformation is (the graphic at the bionicfx web site) and this is a quite innovative approach, not proven yet to be very useful and of course it is still kept more or less secret (there is no download link and you can order the software only via e-mail), which is not very convincing. I personally would prefer to buy two more Audigys, connect them digitally and enjoy a cool and imho pro music workstation, with kX of course. __________________ Miss you, Steve...

Oct 24, 2004, 11:05 PM	Thread Starter #19
Chester01 HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: St. Cloud, MN Posts: 492 Rep Power: 0	(I am gonna try and move away from the idea of the GPU doing effects until that guy releases the beta and we see how well it works, Btw, you cant dl the plugin from bionicfx yet because it isnt released ) anyways http://www.pjwstk.edu.pl/~s1525/index.html#msc did you check that site out? try downloading the guys program http://www.pjwstk.edu.pl/~s1525/prg/...uacoustics.zip (you can change the music in it as long as you use a mono wave file; edit the config.ini) anyways, may be a cool idea for future reverb effects (design a "room" and then have the computer raytrace the sound, giving you your delay times) maybe for the next UFX release __________________ COMP: Dual Intel PIII 733 Mhz; GeForce 4 Ti 4600; 1.128 Gb RAM; SB0350 (Audigy 2 ZS Platnium) STEREO(I UPGRADED):Crown Audio K1 and K2 amplifiers (4000 watts at .1% THD ), JL 13w7 Subwoofer (6.5 CF) (2) 18" PR's, Klipsch SB-1's, some cement blocks for speaker stands...