Un-altered via Digital Out? 2 cards ok? Audigy4?

Tatunkhamon · Dec 21, 2004, 08:36 PM

Hello everybody,

first post...

My current external DAC happens to have 3 separate S/PDIF-inputs for a proprietary digital 5.1 in (using standard S/PDIF, though). It does not have analog 5.1 inputs at all.

I currently have a SB Live! 5.1 Platinum somewhere. I'm planning to make an adapter to convert its Digital Out to 3 x S/PDIF and use this connection to feed the DAC.

1) Is it possible to decode 5.1-content (AC-3 and DTS) in software (I think Live 5.1 Platinum does not support this in h/w) and output the resulting 6 channels of PCM via the before mentioned connection? Would this be bit-perfect, if one would use kX? I'm planning to eventually get rid of my separate DVD-player.

2) I'm planning to use a similar connection for gaming, too. Is is possible to have both kX- and Creative's drivers simultaneously in one system? Or should I use two cards, one using kX for DVD-V and the other (some Audigy) using Creative's drivers for games and DVD-A? (dvd-a would have to be routed via the analog connection, at least when the content is copy-protected, right?) Or is dual-OS/dual-boot the only solution? I found previous posts asking this, but they we're not very conclusive, I'm afraid...

3) If I can get rid of the separate DVD-player, I would use the "currency" I'd get from it to upgrade the external DAC to a version which would add 5.1 analog inputs. These I would use for only DVD-A, because I thought I'd still use the before-mentioned digital connection for games and dvd-v if:
- it would work

and
- if the digital output (concerning dvd-v) would be bit-perfect and
- if there are no benefits in using the analog-outs in gaming.
Do you think my reasoning is correct?

4) If I'd use a second card, it would be either an Audigy 2 ZS or Audigy 4. Are there any benefits in using Audigy 4?
- does it use higher internal precision and
- is it true that it is very similar to some E-MU cards and the first Audigy not to internally re-sample everything?
- is Audigy 4 compatible with kX?
Also for these I found some posts but they were not conclusive, either...

Or maybe I just didn't understand...

Anyhow, I think these drivers (at least on paper) look just great! If I had known about these earlier, maybe my Live! would still be in use...

Wbr, Tatu

**dj_stick** · Dec 22, 2004, 12:35 AM

1) if you use a software decoder
2) you either need two cards, or a dual boot system
3) there should be no real difference between the signal of the analog and the digital outputs, as for "bit-perfect" it depends on how things are set up
4) the audigy 4 hasn't been tested with kX to my knowledge

Tatunkhamon · Dec 22, 2004, 10:14 AM

Chris,

thank you, sounds good. I'll start with the Live! (and some soldering) and see how the Digital Out -> 3 x S/PDIF works with DVD-V (using kX) and games (Creative's drivers).

Some further questions:

1. Have you seen any reviews of the Audigy 4 yet?
2. Is is known does it use 10k2?
3. Do the parts and drivers differ, i.e. is it closer to E-MU's professional/pro-sumer cards than the other Audigys?
4. Could it be the first Audigy to pass the k-mangler and not to re-sample (even without the help of kX-drivers)?

5. In all Audigy's, are the Digital Outs blocked in DVD-A playback, even when using kX-drivers?

Those issues could make the Audigy 4 attractive enough for me, even concidering the price difference between it and the Audigy 2 ZS. If I have no way to output high-definition / multichannel from a DVD-A via the Digital Out, then even the better D/A-stage of the card would benefit me, because I have to make another A/D in my external DAC...

Wbr, Tatu

**dj_stick** · Dec 22, 2004, 07:59 PM

1-4: i don't know
5: not sure, it might depends on the software in use

Tatunkhamon · Dec 22, 2004, 10:15 PM

Chris, thanks.

The price of Audigy 4 Pro is 252 Euros here in Finland, and an Audigy 2 ZS can be had for 56 Euros. Quite a difference...

So, if anybody has any info on Audigy 4, please let me know, I'd appreciate it (questions 1-4 of Post #3).

Wbr, Tatu

**dj_stick** · Dec 22, 2004, 11:38 PM

what is the difference between the audigy 2 zs platinum pro and the audigy 4 pro in price?

the simple ZS is just the card itself… but it works quite well (i have one myself)

Tatunkhamon · Dec 23, 2004, 12:01 AM

The lowest prices I could find here are:

56 Euros - Audigy 2 ZS
179 Euros - Audigy 2 ZS Platinum
240 Euros - Audigy 2 ZS Platinum Pro
252 Euros - Audigy 4 Pro

So the difference between the Pro2 vs. Pro4 and especially Pro2 Platinum vs. Pro4 isn't that huge. I think the pricing of the plain A 2 ZS is simply great!

Also, the A 4 Pro does not have the Digital Out on the card itself, only in the break-out box, which I don't particulary care for. I assume that there must be some pins on the cards itself for that, so I could use those to hack the S/PDIFs out, even without the break-out box, I hope.

I'll settle for the plain A 2 ZS if I don't find out something *really special* about the actual card of A 4 Pro, wouldn't like to pay that much for the break-out box. Quite the contrary, I really don't want any more boxes here!

Btw, the S/PDIF-outputs of the Digital Out have a substancially higher voltage than the standard of S/PDIF is, don't remember the numbers right now but I think it was 5-10 times higher. Heard of any failure stories of somebody breaking their pre/pro/DAC with these connections? Would not like to set my HT-processor on fire, it could easily be 10 times more expensive than making a wrong choice about these sound cards...

Wbr, Tatu

**dj_stick** · Dec 23, 2004, 12:06 AM

you can build simple step down transformers

standard SPDIF - -0.5V to +0.5V
TTL SPDIF (cl cards) - 0-5V

Tatunkhamon · Dec 23, 2004, 01:12 AM

Ok, will (ask somebody to) do those.

I would think that somebody would already have burned their inputs if these were dangerous to the circuits, if connected directly, but who knows? The tech guys at Meridian haven't yet given a green light to connect any of these self-made things to their processors, so maybe I'd better try to set the voltage to the correct standard.

Well, on the other hand, they didn't tell me NOT to do it, either...

Concerning A 2 ZS vs. A 4 Pro:

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1729928,00.asp

Quote from page four: "The Intermodulation Distortion (IMD) is higher than we'd like to see at 44KHz/16-bit, and is happening because Creative runs the 10K2 audio processor at 48KHz internally. The sample-rate then converts to 44KHz/16-bit when that resolution is requested by an application. Because the 96KHz and 192KHz sample rates are exact multiples of 48KHz (2X and 4X, respectively), the IMD issue doesn't occur here."

So, does this mean that it still mangles the bits at 44kHz/16-bit? It seems to certify that it still uses 10K2.

I think I'll settle for the same you have, the A 2 ZS. Don't see many reasons for the Audigy 4 Pro, at least none worth paying almost 200 Euros more!

OT: how is the weather over there, Down Under? I should be catching a flight Jan 10th to Bangkok, from there to Indonesia, and to Sydney and Melbourne. Then back to Thailand, 4 weeks in all! Never been to Australia! Can't wait, over here it's pretty dark at this time but not very cold yet, only couple of degrees Celsius below freezing...

And actually right now, we're experiencing the worst storm in 20 years, so despite being a quite unfriendly place for surfers we have 30+ ms/sec winds all over the place.

Well, anyhow, Happy Holidays!

Wbr, Tatu

**dj_stick** · Dec 23, 2004, 01:35 AM

in melbourne its quite warm atm, but that changes every few days.
january should be quite warm though

Dec 21, 2004, 08:36 PM	#1
Tatunkhamon DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6 Rep Power: 0	Un-altered via Digital Out? 2 cards ok? Audigy4? Hello everybody, first post... My current external DAC happens to have 3 separate S/PDIF-inputs for a proprietary digital 5.1 in (using standard S/PDIF, though). It does not have analog 5.1 inputs at all. I currently have a SB Live! 5.1 Platinum somewhere. I'm planning to make an adapter to convert its Digital Out to 3 x S/PDIF and use this connection to feed the DAC. 1) Is it possible to decode 5.1-content (AC-3 and DTS) in software (I think Live 5.1 Platinum does not support this in h/w) and output the resulting 6 channels of PCM via the before mentioned connection? Would this be bit-perfect, if one would use kX? I'm planning to eventually get rid of my separate DVD-player. 2) I'm planning to use a similar connection for gaming, too. Is is possible to have both kX- and Creative's drivers simultaneously in one system? Or should I use two cards, one using kX for DVD-V and the other (some Audigy) using Creative's drivers for games and DVD-A? (dvd-a would have to be routed via the analog connection, at least when the content is copy-protected, right?) Or is dual-OS/dual-boot the only solution? I found previous posts asking this, but they we're not very conclusive, I'm afraid... 3) If I can get rid of the separate DVD-player, I would use the "currency" I'd get from it to upgrade the external DAC to a version which would add 5.1 analog inputs. These I would use for only DVD-A, because I thought I'd still use the before-mentioned digital connection for games and dvd-v if: - it would work and - if the digital output (concerning dvd-v) would be bit-perfect and - if there are no benefits in using the analog-outs in gaming. Do you think my reasoning is correct? 4) If I'd use a second card, it would be either an Audigy 2 ZS or Audigy 4. Are there any benefits in using Audigy 4? - does it use higher internal precision and - is it true that it is very similar to some E-MU cards and the first Audigy not to internally re-sample everything? - is Audigy 4 compatible with kX? Also for these I found some posts but they were not conclusive, either... Or maybe I just didn't understand... Anyhow, I think these drivers (at least on paper) look just great! If I had known about these earlier, maybe my Live! would still be in use... Wbr, Tatu Last edited by Tatunkhamon; Dec 22, 2004 at 12:09 PM.

Dec 22, 2004, 10:14 AM	Thread Starter #3
Tatunkhamon DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6 Rep Power: 0	Chris, thank you, sounds good. I'll start with the Live! (and some soldering) and see how the Digital Out -> 3 x S/PDIF works with DVD-V (using kX) and games (Creative's drivers). Some further questions: 1. Have you seen any reviews of the Audigy 4 yet? 2. Is is known does it use 10k2? 3. Do the parts and drivers differ, i.e. is it closer to E-MU's professional/pro-sumer cards than the other Audigys? 4. Could it be the first Audigy to pass the k-mangler and not to re-sample (even without the help of kX-drivers)? 5. In all Audigy's, are the Digital Outs blocked in DVD-A playback, even when using kX-drivers? Those issues could make the Audigy 4 attractive enough for me, even concidering the price difference between it and the Audigy 2 ZS. If I have no way to output high-definition / multichannel from a DVD-A via the Digital Out, then even the better D/A-stage of the card would benefit me, because I have to make another A/D in my external DAC... Wbr, Tatu

Dec 22, 2004, 10:15 PM	Thread Starter #5
Tatunkhamon DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6 Rep Power: 0	Chris, thanks. The price of Audigy 4 Pro is 252 Euros here in Finland, and an Audigy 2 ZS can be had for 56 Euros. Quite a difference... So, if anybody has any info on Audigy 4, please let me know, I'd appreciate it (questions 1-4 of Post #3). Wbr, Tatu

Dec 23, 2004, 12:01 AM	Thread Starter #7
Tatunkhamon DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6 Rep Power: 0	The lowest prices I could find here are: 56 Euros - Audigy 2 ZS 179 Euros - Audigy 2 ZS Platinum 240 Euros - Audigy 2 ZS Platinum Pro 252 Euros - Audigy 4 Pro So the difference between the Pro2 vs. Pro4 and especially Pro2 Platinum vs. Pro4 isn't that huge. I think the pricing of the plain A 2 ZS is simply great! Also, the A 4 Pro does not have the Digital Out on the card itself, only in the break-out box, which I don't particulary care for. I assume that there must be some pins on the cards itself for that, so I could use those to hack the S/PDIFs out, even without the break-out box, I hope. I'll settle for the plain A 2 ZS if I don't find out something really special about the actual card of A 4 Pro, wouldn't like to pay that much for the break-out box. Quite the contrary, I really don't want any more boxes here! Btw, the S/PDIF-outputs of the Digital Out have a substancially higher voltage than the standard of S/PDIF is, don't remember the numbers right now but I think it was 5-10 times higher. Heard of any failure stories of somebody breaking their pre/pro/DAC with these connections? Would not like to set my HT-processor on fire, it could easily be 10 times more expensive than making a wrong choice about these sound cards... Wbr, Tatu

Dec 23, 2004, 01:12 AM	Thread Starter #9
Tatunkhamon DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6 Rep Power: 0	Ok, will (ask somebody to) do those. I would think that somebody would already have burned their inputs if these were dangerous to the circuits, if connected directly, but who knows? The tech guys at Meridian haven't yet given a green light to connect any of these self-made things to their processors, so maybe I'd better try to set the voltage to the correct standard. Well, on the other hand, they didn't tell me NOT to do it, either... Concerning A 2 ZS vs. A 4 Pro: http://www.extremetech.com/article2/...1729928,00.asp Quote from page four: "The Intermodulation Distortion (IMD) is higher than we'd like to see at 44KHz/16-bit, and is happening because Creative runs the 10K2 audio processor at 48KHz internally. The sample-rate then converts to 44KHz/16-bit when that resolution is requested by an application. Because the 96KHz and 192KHz sample rates are exact multiples of 48KHz (2X and 4X, respectively), the IMD issue doesn't occur here." So, does this mean that it still mangles the bits at 44kHz/16-bit? It seems to certify that it still uses 10K2. I think I'll settle for the same you have, the A 2 ZS. Don't see many reasons for the Audigy 4 Pro, at least none worth paying almost 200 Euros more! OT: how is the weather over there, Down Under? I should be catching a flight Jan 10th to Bangkok, from there to Indonesia, and to Sydney and Melbourne. Then back to Thailand, 4 weeks in all! Never been to Australia! Can't wait, over here it's pretty dark at this time but not very cold yet, only couple of degrees Celsius below freezing... And actually right now, we're experiencing the worst storm in 20 years, so despite being a quite unfriendly place for surfers we have 30+ ms/sec winds all over the place. Well, anyhow, Happy Holidays! Wbr, Tatu