iansykes

After moving to the KX drivers (version 3537) from Creative's drivers I've
been amazed by the improvement that the KX drivers have brought to the
sound of my soundfonts, and I'm looking forward to getting my Soundblaster's
DSP to start showing what it's really capable of.

I've also seen mixing latency improved from around 300 ms to just 10 ms.
However, using my SB Live Platinum 5.1 card and Cakewalk Home Studio 2002
(CHS 2002) I am finding that audio playback lags MIDI playback by 88 ms;
this lag is clearly audible and far too big to make my set-up usable.

I have run CHS 2002's wave profiler countless times. It reports that its
mixing latency is a healthily low 10 ms.

To reproduce the problem:

a. Configure Cakewalk's metronome to be active only during recording.

b. Record track 1, an audio track that is the sound of Cakewalk's metronome
generated by the SB Live's on-board MIDI synthesizer.

c. Record track 2, an audio track whose sources are a mix of track 1 with the
new live synth-generated metronome that sounds because CHS 2002 is recording.

Mixing down track 2 on its own to a WAV file then viewing in a WAV editor
shows the first metronome beat beginning 4 ms into the file, followed by an
"echo" at 92 ms; hence the figure of 88 ms I quoted earlier.

I've read that something referred to as kmixer introduces a minimum
processing delay of 30 ms for any WDM driver, but surely that delay is
compensated for by Cakewalk's wave profiler?

From what I've read I would be better off using ASIO, but the 2002 version
of Cakewalk Home Studio doesn't support ASIO.

Does anyone have any ideas as to why my audio playback is so out of sync
with MIDI? Could it be anything to do with use of the KX UART MIDI port when
I should be using the KX Control MIDI port, or vice versa?

Thanks in advance for any insights or ideas.

Ian

Lex Nahumury

1. make sure you set/use 48khz for your projects/audio data etc...!!
2. if using wdm, use only 1 kX wave device to start with.
(using more then one kX wave device can cause audio/midi sync drift)
3. yes, you should use kx uart midi in/out
4. yes, asio works best, but also always at 48khz!!

/LeMury

iansykes

I'm using 48 kHz and WDM.

I'm not sure what you mean by using only one wave device. I have
only one sound card. In the test that I described, the "In" for
both audio tracks is "Stereo kX Wave SB0060 5.1 [dc00] 0/1" and
the "Out" is "A (kX Wave SB0060 5.1 [dc00] 0/1 1/2).

I retested with "kX UART SB0060 5.1 [dc00]" as both the sole
available MIDI input device and sole available MIDI output device;
this seems to have been an incorrect configuration, as there was no
sound audible from the MIDI synth. So I changed the MIDI output
to "kX Synth SB0060 5.1 [dc00]"; the audio still seems to lag
the MIDI by about 88 ms.

Unfortunately, Cakewalk Home Studio doesn't support ASIO.

Any other ideas?

Thanks,

Ian

iansykes

I've confirmed that the problem doesn't exist with the demo version of Cakewalk Sonar 4.0.1, using ASIO. (Boy, did I have a fight getting the DSP set up for ASIO with Sonar!)

So perhaps I will buy Sonar, or Cakewalk Home Studio 2004 (which also supports ASIO)...

Ian

Lex Nahumury

Of course, asio works nice. Still, wdm playback should work fine too
as it has nothing to do with hardware midi i/o and the midi delay-problems you described.
You are not using DX midi Synths by any change are you?
They have a huge latency, hence delay.

Anyway; hardware kx synth and midi i/o should not delay no matter what sequencer you use.
Must be some wrong setup.

/LeMury

iansykes

No, the lack of MIDI/audio sync is apparent without using DX MIDI synths.

I'm pretty certain that when I tried the Sonar demo version with the WDM drivers the sync problem was still apparent. (Otherwise why would I have put myself through the ASIO learning curve :-) But, definitely, with the ASIO drivers (set to 5.33 ms latency, although 2.66 ms was offered) my recorded and live (i.e. MIDI synth-generated) metronome sounds sounded perfectly in sync.

I'd love to find a solution that didn't involve expense but my priority is to make the music the focus, rather than the challenges of the technology!

Thanks for your thoughts.

Ian

Lex Nahumury

Strange.
Anyway, all I'm saying is that I've used CW9.0 and later using kX wdm with no
audio/midi sync problems whatsoever as long as I activated only 1 kX wave pair
in CW's audio setup.

/LeMury

iansykes

I've just retested with Home Studio 2002 (and hence WDM drivers) after
running the Wave Profiler, having first set the options in the "Drivers" tab
of the Options --> Audio dialog as follows:

"kX Wave SB0060 5.1 [dc00] 0/1" is the sole enabled input driver
(the program offers only that choice, anyway).

"kX Wave SB0060 5.1 [dc00] 0/1 1/2" is the sole selected output driver.

The out-of-sync problem is still apparent.

Are the audio driver settings that I've just used as you were expecting?

Thanks,

Ian

Lex Nahumury

Wierd!
I'll see if I can find/install CWHS 2002 again(sometime).
btw; which kx driver do you use?

/LeMury

thomasabarnes

Hi iansykes:

First, let me say that LeMury is a great help for problem solving. Now, I'm wondering what type Operating System are you using. Did you have good audio and MIDI sync using the Creative drivers, or has this always been a problem? If this has always been a problem, let me bring to your attention that older computers have a problem with Sequencers and audio/MIDI sync. I think it's with PCs having motherboards manufactured before 2002.

When I first bought SONAR in January of 2002, my audio and MIDI was always out of sync so much SONAR was unuseable! I was using a motherboard manufatured before 2002. I was so upset! But, I learned that these older motherboards and Windows XP work well with sequencers if you use a standard PC configuration rather that an ACPI PC configuration. After installing a standard PC configuration, my audio and MIDI sync was usable and much better! Now, I always use a standard PC configuration! I'll wait for you to reply, before I write links and other info that can help you get setup with a standard PC configuration cause you may be using a newer motherboard, and this may not be a motherboard issue.

I use SONAR 4 PE, now. And at the Cakewalk SONAR forum, I've learned that some users using SONAR and having audio/MIDI sync problems have fixed the problem by adding or adjusting a variable entry in a file called TTSEQ.ini The entry in this file is named "IgnoreMidiInTimeStamps." If the vaule is 1 change it to 0, if it is 0, change it to 1, or if it's not there, add it and try 1 and 0. I dont know if Home Studio has this .ini file, but I'm mentioning it just in case.

I'm waiting for you to reply to see if anything I've written here may be a possible soloution to your problem.

thomasabarnes

__________________

May a song always touch you in a positive way.
SONAR X1D Expanded, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB x2 HDD 7200 rpm

My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs

iansykes

I'm using version 3537 of the drivers.

Ian

iansykes

Thanks for your post, Thomas,

I tried the "IgnoreMidiInTimeStamps=x" line in the Options section of TTSSEQ.ini, with values of 0 and 1 for x, but got no joy.

Until recently I had a single set-up, with CHS 2002 on Windows XP Professional with service pack 1; this setup has the sync problem. It also had the problem (perhaps since I upgraded to Win XP Pro from Win XP Home...?) that the audio engine would crash from time to time when not apparently under much load. The latter problem made me conclude that my PC has accumulated too much junk in the way of CPU-grabbing services, so last weekend I created a 3Gb partition on my second hard drive and installed Windows XP Home + Service Pack 1 + CHS 2002 on that. This also has the non-sync'ed MIDI/audio problem.

Sync was good with my soundcard and the Creative drivers (Win 98 drivers on a Win 98 machine, then Creative's Win XP drivers when, around April 2003, I migrated the soundcard to my current machine (2.53GHz P4, 512 Mb of RAM, twin 80 Gb 7200 rpm hard drives).



Looking in Device Manager I see entries that include:

ACPI UniProcessor PC

ACPI Fixed Feature Button
Microsoft ACPI-Compliant System

Do the presence of those ACPI entries give cause for concern, then?


I note that Sonar 4 includes a multitude of configurable items to do with synchronization; CHS 2002 has far fewer. Whilst my research has shown that issues of drift and jitter are patently nebulous and many, Sonar 4 (and likely CHS 200[color=yellow]4[/color]) patently has many more tools than CHS 2002 for dealing with them...

Ian

iansykes

Oops - I don't want to confuse the problem by having introduced the subjects of drift and jitter; the problem that I'm seeing is a more fundamental synchronization issue. As I said in my very first post, the first MIDI-generated metronome beat occurs 4 ms into the track, with an "echo" 88 ms later. The problem that I'm seeing isn't one of drift; the audio lags the MIDI by 88 ms right from the start.

Ian

thomasabarnes

O.K. Here's the deal. It may be a sync problem caused by the ACPI configuration, but it may not be that. I remember when I was having the audio/MIDI sync problem, I was willing to do anything to get it fixed. Since I paid so much for SONAR. If your music production is important to you, you can try installing a standard PC configuration and see if that fixes the out of sync problem. First, make sure your soundcard is not sharing an IRQ with anything else. After trying all you can to fix the audio/MIDI out of sync problem to no avail, you might do well to try a Standard PC configuration.

If you want to try this, go to Device manager and check out the top where it says "Computer." Click the + and if it says Advanced Configuration and Power Interface, you have a ACPI configuration. If you want to try a standard PC config, you can find instruction on how to do so in the link I'm posting below. (Also, this link takes you to a guide for optimizing your Win XP PC for music production). It's not a guaranteed fix, but I tried it when I had an audio/MIDI sync problem when I was in a ACPI config, and switching to a Standard config helped me greatly. I've used a Standard PC config ever since.

Here's the link if you want to change your config: http://www.musicxp.net/installing_xp.php

Goodluck

__________________

May a song always touch you in a positive way.
SONAR X1D Expanded, Windows 7 Pro 64Bit, MOTU UltraLite MK3, 150 GB HDD, 250 GB HDD, 1 TB x2 HDD 7200 rpm

My Music Production: Top 40, Contemporary Christian, Pop/Rock, Decent Rap, Inspirationals, and Children Songs

Lex Nahumury

iansykes;

Well I checked CWHS 2002.
Now I remember, the trick was, NOT using WDM interface, but MME.

Go to;
Options->audio->Advanced->Always use MME Interface..!!
The midi to audio delay is gone now and everything is 'tight'.

/LeMury

Lex Nahumury

@iansykes; Hello, anybody home..!
Or did you wreck your pc shuffling cards .

Anyway, it would be nice if you'd report back so I'd know I didn't
'polute' my HD for nothing installing CWHS2002.

/LeMury

iansykes

Sorry for the radio silence, LeMury!

I tried MME drivers last weekend with CWHS 2002 and, you're right - sync was tight. But results were poor with playing soft synths in real time; pretty bad crackling noises.

Last night I added an extra bar to the start of a non-sync'ed project (WDM drivers), then delayed the start of the MIDI tracks by the equivalent of 88 ms. Sounded great and didn't seem to evidence any sync drift over the duration of the piece (which lasts for perhaps a minute and a half), but the new audio track I added immediately after that was significantly delayed (probably 88 ms again) relative to what was already in the project.

(I found it vexing that I couldn't find a way to shift audio tracks in time with CWHS, hence the approach of delaying the start of the MIDI tracks to regain sync.)

Technically I could perhaps get by using the technique of shifting MIDI tracks after each new audio track is recorded, but I think I'll be going down the route of buying new DAW software.

From the web, "Cubase SX3.0.1 also expands the concept of full automatic plug-in delay compensation to include external effects loops as well. A unique new "ping" button can be used to measure the processing delay of any external effects device and automatically set the corresponding delay parameter for automatic compensation. For the first time, automatic sample-accurate timing is now possible even in complex software/hardware systems where plug-ins and hardware effects work side by side."

That sounds like very capable technology, although I don't know that my finances will run to SX3, and I don't understand signal routeing possibilities well enough to know if I'll ever need that level of sophistication. I guess I effectively have two external effects devices; my guitar multi-fx unit (which I've never used in a re-amping approach) and my SoundBlaster's DSP (ditto). I'll probably seek advice from a music technology-savvy retailer.

The idea of buying new DAW software makes me think about buying a more modern audio interface, too (Firewire connectivity and 4 simultaneous channels of audio input sounds good to me) but keeping my Soundblaster would give me the following:

DSP-based effects, so no CPU load
Built-in MIDI synth, so less cable spaghetti and no need to purchase a MIDI sound module.
Being PC-hosted, again there's less cable spaghetti.
Optical output for getting audio into my mini-disc machine
RCA/phono inputs for (one day!) converting my vinyl record collection to CD

Of course, there will surely be the possibility of running my SoundBlaster alongside a new, external audio interface.

I don't see the whole picture clearly yet, but new DAW software is almost certainly on the cards.

Thanks for all of your help.

Ian

Lex Nahumury

Aha, but you didn't mentioned the need/use of soft synths.
Well, in that case both MME as well as WDM/Dx interface just suck in terms of latency..!
If you need low latency soft synths, ASIO is what you want.

Besides Cubase SX there are less pricy asio capable sequencers.
There are a few mentioned in this forum.

/LeMury