kX Project status - March'2005

Maddogg6 · Jul 10, 2005, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mercurysquad

Seriously guys, how long does it take to change ^2 into ^4 in the soundfont code? Test it, sounds ok, good. Not OK, change it back. I've been barking for like 3 years about this simple bug which makes MIDIs authored on creative (or indeed any other MIDI synth) incompatible with kX synth because the velocities, expression, volume envelopes are different. No avail. 3 years back we actually had a discussion about this, with lines from the source being posted on the forum for review. Now the posts are just deleted for no reason.

One little bug. And you say it's FREE software. You know there are other free software projects as well..

I mean, it's meant for musicians, right? I'm one, and I find kX unusable simply becuase when I hit a key with velocity 64, it sounds as if with vel 80. How difficult would it be to fix that? And don't tell me kX follows SF2.1 guidelines - if it doesn't sound right, it doesn't sound right.

And please go ahead and delete this rant.

If you DO like the KX driver otherwise.. I would suggest editing the sound fonts velocity scaling for instruments that this happens with.

I myself (not a keyboard player per say) have a velocity scaling factor on my el-cheapo keyboard that allows me to adjust my playing feel/dynamics. So if your a LIVE keyboard player, Id be willing to bet your keyboard has the same abilities. Whay model is it it - if so?

If its a midi sequence that I need to adjust - in sonar theres a velocity off set right there in the track view that allows me to accomplish the same thing. Or, I can permanently scale or offset using 'Scale velocitys' or the 'Interpolate' functions inside sonar.
What sequencer are you using?

While I do understand your frustrations, I dont uderstand why this is such a huge issue for you, if you better explain your circumstance, maybe I can suggest a less painful work around for you.

P.S. - ranting in a forum is usually not a good way to ask for assistance or make requasts and The raised blood pressure from a sound card is just not worth it.

HTH
Mark

mercurysquad · Jul 10, 2005, 08:18 PM

Hmm actually this happens with all instruments. And yeah you're right, I work with MIDI files mostly editing the velocity levels later (no live player). Ofcourse there are workarounds, but having to scale the velocities for every of my projects is a pain. What more, I author pro MIDI files for standard equipment, and midis authored on kX don't quite sound right on say a GS synth, and vice versa [assuming I have a GS soundfont!].

As for huge issue - that's exactly my point. It's NOT a huge issue at all - just a little bug (or oversight, I should say) which is preventing kX from reaching its full potential. Of course I didnt mean to "rant" or disrespect the kX team, I'm just a little annoyed that a little bug is keeping me from using an otherwise fabulous set of drivers/apps.

Maddogg6 · Jul 10, 2005, 08:57 PM

But it sounds like KX is supporting the SF 2.01 standard, while even creative, who fabricated the standard are not following.

It would be nice to ba able to adjust the KX drivers behavior and scale factors for such things. seems like it could be easy enough to implement as long as your not as dumb as me

.

I author midi files too (for playback on others hw - not professionally tho) and find there's no such thing as 'comatability' - I found MANY 'GM' devices sound MUCH different on different hardware. - Yes, a Violin may either sound exactly like a violin, while other sound like a sawtooth waveform with a slower attack. I still have to tweak for the target hw for *optimal* sound and mix. And I have some sound fonts that I tweaked to help emulate this - even if I used the creative drivers, or the APSLive (that I used to use on my SBLive Value) I still needed to have targeted versions of my sequences.

For instance, my friend has a KORG 01W Pro - which is NOT GM, but has a GM compatable library loaded and some instruments are missing or are so different, I wouldn't call it 'GM Compatable'. Same with the Edirol GS soft synth. Songs sound signifcantly different than the 8MB GM/GS sound font from EMU. Sure, you still can tell its the same song. But quality differences are definitly audible and stck out like a sore thumb to me, BUT the good news is, many already realize this fact and are usually the ones who get great joy in tweaking stuff them selves..??

When I first bought my AWE32 way back when, I also purchased a LED Zepplin Midi file bundle from MidiTrax (i think it was) - and on the system set up to hear it in the store sounded great. When I played it on my AWE I was disappointed too. Thats when I found how fun it is to play with midi. But, if I want others to hear EXACTLY what I want them to hear I have to supply the right sample sets (in a SF2 file) in addition to the midi file or just give them an MP3/CD to listen to.

It's just the nature of midi - MIDI IS NOT a vehicle for publishing - its a studio automation standard. - You're trying to make midi do something it wasnt designed to do. And thats not anyones fault but your own. Sorry

It appears that KX will continue to follow SF2.01 specs, and if this is so - the only reasonable answer is to scale your soundfonts velociy factors to match what ever it is you see as being compatable for what/who your authoring for.

Good luck, I have a feeling you'll need it.

Piece,
Mark

mercurysquad · Jul 10, 2005, 09:15 PM

Hmm, I think you got me wrong!

I'm talking about the relative loudness of different velocity/volume/expression values, not the sound of the instruments in general. That is usually not a problem as I make standard GS and XG format MIDIs (i agree, GM is not a standard anymore). I've been a MIDI "tweaker" for years too, and I know GM files sound violently different on different synths, but XG and GS (especially XG) sound pretty much the same.

Getting back to the original point, I'm not trying to make MIDIs sound IDENTICAL, I'm just trying to make the relative loudnesses sound about equal. So, when I play a MIDI made on XG equipment, on creative drivers, it sounds fine (except ofcourse the sound of the instruments themselves). HOWEVER, ok kX it's all messed up (i've tested 3537). Like, 50% volume sounds like 75%. I could make a few wave files maybe and post them to show what I mean.

Course kX follow SF2.01 (2.1 was a typo), but well the velocity/volume/expr levers don't correspond with either creative's or yamaha or roland or practically ANY synth I've heard. So MAYBE there's an error in the documentation itself? Just a thought.

mercurysquad · Jul 10, 2005, 09:18 PM

Also,

Quote:

It's just the nature of midi - MIDI IS NOT a vehicle for publishing - its a studio automation standard. - You're trying to make midi do something it wasnt designed to do. And thats not anyones fault but your own. Sorry

Well, I publish XG and GS midis on www.singlouder.com -> it's definitely publishable. Why do you think there are so many midi houses, and floppy disks with midi files are sold in Japan? You just have to use the right standards, in my case XG mostly and sometimes GS. As for making MIDI do something it "wasn't designed to do"... hehhe... XG was designed with compatibility on mind, so ANY XG midi level 1 file will sound just as good as it was intended to be. Check out some MP3 samples on that site and let me know what you think of MIDI's capabilities!

Maddogg6 · Jul 11, 2005, 12:48 AM

Theres a difference between whats possible and whats designed for. And MIDI WAS NOT designed for music publishing. GM, was a standard that kinda (sort of) made it possible to 'publish' with *some* sort of compatibility. GS slightly improved on the GM standard. XG was yet another step towards a SYNTH STANDARD.

I requested in another thread to add a user setable scale factor that would allow us to adjust those parameters to our needs and it not be dictated by the driver.
Which should improve the situation that pains you.

Have a listen to my stuff at http://md6.us - granted Im not the best musician. But you may get a better idea of what I do understand.
You'll notice I PUBLISH in audio format and not midi format, because of the problems of compatibility. I DO want listeners to hear what hear no matter what.

mercurysquad · Jul 11, 2005, 06:00 AM

No no, I'm not saying MIDI is a good medium to publish original music. I publish MIDI covers of top40 songs... which has its own uses.

ironickSQUAD · Jul 12, 2005, 06:01 PM

It is possible to have (analyzer) peak level for 6 channels ( 5.1 ) on the next version ?

Maddogg6 · Jul 12, 2005, 06:17 PM

You can add more peak meters and connect them where you'd like. Its not quite the same, but does work.

Jul 12, 2005, 06:01 PM	#68
ironickSQUAD DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 10 Rep Power: 0	Analyzer ( peak level ) for 5.1 (6 channels) It is possible to have (analyzer) peak level for 6 channels ( 5.1 ) on the next version ?

Jul 10, 2005, 08:18 PM	#62
mercurysquad DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: India Posts: 25 Rep Power: 0	Hmm actually this happens with all instruments. And yeah you're right, I work with MIDI files mostly editing the velocity levels later (no live player). Ofcourse there are workarounds, but having to scale the velocities for every of my projects is a pain. What more, I author pro MIDI files for standard equipment, and midis authored on kX don't quite sound right on say a GS synth, and vice versa [assuming I have a GS soundfont!]. As for huge issue - that's exactly my point. It's NOT a huge issue at all - just a little bug (or oversight, I should say) which is preventing kX from reaching its full potential. Of course I didnt mean to "rant" or disrespect the kX team, I'm just a little annoyed that a little bug is keeping me from using an otherwise fabulous set of drivers/apps.

Jul 10, 2005, 08:57 PM	#63
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 0	But it sounds like KX is supporting the SF 2.01 standard, while even creative, who fabricated the standard are not following. It would be nice to ba able to adjust the KX drivers behavior and scale factors for such things. seems like it could be easy enough to implement as long as your not as dumb as me . I author midi files too (for playback on others hw - not professionally tho) and find there's no such thing as 'comatability' - I found MANY 'GM' devices sound MUCH different on different hardware. - Yes, a Violin may either sound exactly like a violin, while other sound like a sawtooth waveform with a slower attack. I still have to tweak for the target hw for optimal sound and mix. And I have some sound fonts that I tweaked to help emulate this - even if I used the creative drivers, or the APSLive (that I used to use on my SBLive Value) I still needed to have targeted versions of my sequences. For instance, my friend has a KORG 01W Pro - which is NOT GM, but has a GM compatable library loaded and some instruments are missing or are so different, I wouldn't call it 'GM Compatable'. Same with the Edirol GS soft synth. Songs sound signifcantly different than the 8MB GM/GS sound font from EMU. Sure, you still can tell its the same song. But quality differences are definitly audible and stck out like a sore thumb to me, BUT the good news is, many already realize this fact and are usually the ones who get great joy in tweaking stuff them selves..?? When I first bought my AWE32 way back when, I also purchased a LED Zepplin Midi file bundle from MidiTrax (i think it was) - and on the system set up to hear it in the store sounded great. When I played it on my AWE I was disappointed too. Thats when I found how fun it is to play with midi. But, if I want others to hear EXACTLY what I want them to hear I have to supply the right sample sets (in a SF2 file) in addition to the midi file or just give them an MP3/CD to listen to. It's just the nature of midi - MIDI IS NOT a vehicle for publishing - its a studio automation standard. - You're trying to make midi do something it wasnt designed to do. And thats not anyones fault but your own. Sorry It appears that KX will continue to follow SF2.01 specs, and if this is so - the only reasonable answer is to scale your soundfonts velociy factors to match what ever it is you see as being compatable for what/who your authoring for. Good luck, I have a feeling you'll need it. Piece, Mark

Jul 10, 2005, 09:15 PM	#64
mercurysquad DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: India Posts: 25 Rep Power: 0	Hmm, I think you got me wrong! I'm talking about the relative loudness of different velocity/volume/expression values, not the sound of the instruments in general. That is usually not a problem as I make standard GS and XG format MIDIs (i agree, GM is not a standard anymore). I've been a MIDI "tweaker" for years too, and I know GM files sound violently different on different synths, but XG and GS (especially XG) sound pretty much the same. Getting back to the original point, I'm not trying to make MIDIs sound IDENTICAL, I'm just trying to make the relative loudnesses sound about equal. So, when I play a MIDI made on XG equipment, on creative drivers, it sounds fine (except ofcourse the sound of the instruments themselves). HOWEVER, ok kX it's all messed up (i've tested 3537). Like, 50% volume sounds like 75%. I could make a few wave files maybe and post them to show what I mean. Course kX follow SF2.01 (2.1 was a typo), but well the velocity/volume/expr levers don't correspond with either creative's or yamaha or roland or practically ANY synth I've heard. So MAYBE there's an error in the documentation itself? Just a thought.

Jul 11, 2005, 12:48 AM	#66
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 0	Theres a difference between whats possible and whats designed for. And MIDI WAS NOT designed for music publishing. GM, was a standard that kinda (sort of) made it possible to 'publish' with some sort of compatibility. GS slightly improved on the GM standard. XG was yet another step towards a SYNTH STANDARD. I requested in another thread to add a user setable scale factor that would allow us to adjust those parameters to our needs and it not be dictated by the driver. Which should improve the situation that pains you. Have a listen to my stuff at http://md6.us - granted Im not the best musician. But you may get a better idea of what I do understand. You'll notice I PUBLISH in audio format and not midi format, because of the problems of compatibility. I DO want listeners to hear what hear no matter what.

Jul 11, 2005, 06:00 AM	#67
mercurysquad DriverHeaven Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: India Posts: 25 Rep Power: 0	No no, I'm not saying MIDI is a good medium to publish original music. I publish MIDI covers of top40 songs... which has its own uses.

Jul 12, 2005, 06:17 PM	#69
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 0	You can add more peak meters and connect them where you'd like. Its not quite the same, but does work.