Samplerate problem

wunden · Oct 13, 2005, 08:21 AM

Hi,
I am trying to hook up two soundcards on my win 98 se system: an SB!Live Value (CT4670) and a Philips psc604 card. I connected the spdif out of the Philips with the internal spdif in of the Live Value (on the pins for the I/O-card). When I play CDs or other wave output over the Philips, kx tells me that the samplerate is 48 khz, I get a signal on the spdif in which I can hear - everything is groovy!
But when I try to record a line in signal, samplerate is shown as 44.1 khz and I don't get any signal on the Live! Is there any way to fix this problem?
Any help would be appreciated.
Thanks a lot,
Markus

TravelRec. · Oct 13, 2005, 01:56 PM

The Live! is able to recognize SPDIF signals from 32kHz to 48kHz without any problems - the reason for the issue must with the philips card - does the line in playback/record work on the Live! card via AC97?

wunden · Oct 13, 2005, 02:22 PM

The line-in on the Live! works perfectly. I can even get sound from the Philips card when I record something via mme in an application (magix audio studio) where I have forced a samplerate of 48 kHz and play this back in the same application . At 44.1 kHz kx recognizes the signal on spdif in, I just don't get any sound.

TravelRec. · Oct 14, 2005, 06:56 AM

Check in the SPDIF/I2S status window whether the live card recognizes a valid audio signal on 44.1kHz, so the R, S, V - flags are on?! If yes, the philips card does not produce a sound at 44.1, however... if the flags are off or only partially on, then the signal stream is damaged anyhow.

wunden · Oct 15, 2005, 12:47 AM

First of all thank you for your quick answer, travelrec. There is actually no [v] flag set, only [r] and [s], but strangely enough this is the case for both 44.1 and 48 kHz. I tried the following workaround for my problem: I installed asio4all drivers for the philips card and run a recording program with these drivers. When I create a track with samplerate set to 48 kHz and switch on monitoring, I can route the incoming signal to the SBLive.
However, I haven't checked what this means for latency, and it is a rather complicated setup. So if there are any more ideas as to what's wrong, I would be very glad. BTW, I made the connection between the two cards by soldering an RCA plug to a two-pin digital audio cable.

TravelRec. · Oct 17, 2005, 09:30 AM

If there is no v-flag, the stream is faulty. BTW: on which SPDIF input of the Live! you have connected the Philips SPDIF out? Is the Philips SPDIF signal on TTL or on coaxial level, so 5V or 0.5V ?! If it´s TTL it can be connected on every SPDIF input of the Live!, if it´s coaxial, it can be connected on CD-SPDIF input only.

wunden · Oct 18, 2005, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TravelRec.

If there is no v-flag, the stream is faulty.

What are the possible reasons for that? Sorry for all these questions, but I am a total newbie when it comes to digital connections. It doesn't seem to make a difference where I connect the cable to, I get the same problems with cd-spdif or the spdif-in of the I/O-card connectors.

TravelRec. · Oct 19, 2005, 06:32 AM

You don´t have answered my question?! Is the level from the philips card on TTL 5V or on coaxial 0.5V? Anyway - if it makes no difference where you connect it.... Are your cables you use for connection shielded and short and of the right impedance?

wunden · Oct 19, 2005, 12:31 PM

Unfortunately I have no means of measuring the output level, but as you said, it doesn't work either way. As for cables, I used a standard two pin cable which you normally use to connect the digital out of the CD-drive to digital CD-in of the soundcard. I removed one of the plugs and soldered an ordinary RCA plug to the end of it which connects to the external spdif out of the philips card. The cable is now about 40 cm long.
I assumed a cable like that should work since it works with the internal digital connections, but maybe I am completely wrong here...

Maddogg6 · Oct 19, 2005, 06:40 PM

At first I suspected the cable that was modded - but the card sees a signal.

TravelRec: Would a bit depth make a difference? ie.. if the phillips card outputs 44Khz/24bit. What does happen in those cases? - drop the 8 LSb (least significant bits), or more of a division/math conversion?

I noticed - when I (accidentially but massively) overdrive an input on my card - they go silent, like an 'auto mute' to protect speakers or maybe the inputs, not sure if this is hardware or if KX does this tho.

24 bit depth may sound ok through the philips card, but may covert to an overdriven signal on the Live card. ??

A quick test of simply lowering the phillips card output level may lead somewhere.
Can the phillips card change the spdifs output bitdepth (16/20/24/32)? if no, what is the bit depth?

Just throwing out ideas.

Hmm..
Curious... I just noticed my front panel SPDIF is connected, and I got a pop-up notify by KX indicating that its active, and I can hear it, but no input is showing in the KX S/PDIF status screen.

wunden · Oct 19, 2005, 07:52 PM

According to the product specifications the max bit depth is 16 bit, so that doesn't seem to be the problem.

TravelRec. · Oct 20, 2005, 06:14 AM

Anyway - the Live! should accept any 32k to 48k at 16Bit to 24Bit by specification. The SPDIF input is relatively flexible. I think that the cable is a way too long, mine are even shorter - say a half of yours. But without a scope you can´t check anything to see what´s wrong. If you are able to do, try another card, instead of the philips, for testing.

wunden · Oct 21, 2005, 09:43 PM

The only thing i was able to test so far was putting the philips card into another machine with a live drive and connecting the philips output externally with a regular RCA audio cable (length ca. 1m) to the spdif in of the live drive.
I get exactly the same results (no [v] flag, sound coming through at 48 kHz), so the cable should not be the problem (or both cables are too long...). I am going to replace the philips card for more testing as soon as I can lay my hands on another card with digital out.

TravelRec. · Oct 22, 2005, 01:13 PM

Yes, this is probably the best solution. Thanks for reporting.

wunden · Oct 28, 2005, 08:47 PM

Just in case somebody is still inerested: I tested the whole setup with a Sound Blaster 4.1 digital card as a "slave". The connecting cable is made of the other half of the digital connecting cable I had already used for my first tests and a 3.5' plug which goes into the digital out of the 4.1 card. Results are as follows: The spdif signal of the card is now more or less steady at 48 kHz, but there is still no [v] flag. I can now record audio via the line-in of the slave card, but there is some background noise. When I tested with my cheap keyboard as a source, the spdif signal was running wild when the keyboard was plugged in without playing, it steadied when I hit some notes.
This all seems pretty mysterious to me. Maybe someone who has a working setup with two cards connected digitally could post some details about his setup, especially the kind of cables and plugs ahich are used.

Doug W · Oct 29, 2005, 11:43 AM

I will look at my setup this weekend. I don't exactly know what the [V] valid audio means, but it never appear for SBLives, only the Audigy cards. It doesn't mean you have invalid audio.

wunden · Nov 8, 2005, 07:46 PM

Just to put an end to this thread: I finally went and got me a live! platinum, threw out the cards without the kx drivers and hooked my old live! value to the platinum via spdif. Now the digital connection works perfectly (although still no [v] flag).
So I am not going to worry about what went wrong the first two times, especially since i now have to battle asio mapping issues...
Once again thanx for all the help.

Doug W · Nov 9, 2005, 01:47 AM

I don't exactly know what the V (valid) really means since my SBLives worked together when I didn't have a V and when I got my Audigy I, I got a V and likewise with the Audigy 2 ZS but V or no V, glad it is working for you.

Oct 13, 2005, 08:21 AM	#1
wunden DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 18 Rep Power: 0	Samplerate problem Hi, I am trying to hook up two soundcards on my win 98 se system: an SB!Live Value (CT4670) and a Philips psc604 card. I connected the spdif out of the Philips with the internal spdif in of the Live Value (on the pins for the I/O-card). When I play CDs or other wave output over the Philips, kx tells me that the samplerate is 48 khz, I get a signal on the spdif in which I can hear - everything is groovy! But when I try to record a line in signal, samplerate is shown as 44.1 khz and I don't get any signal on the Live! Is there any way to fix this problem? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks a lot, Markus

Oct 13, 2005, 01:56 PM	#2
TravelRec. Alternative Audioproductions Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Germany / Sachsen-Anhalt Posts: 1,710 Rep Power: 0	The Live! is able to recognize SPDIF signals from 32kHz to 48kHz without any problems - the reason for the issue must with the philips card - does the line in playback/record work on the Live! card via AC97? __________________ Always take a look behind.

Oct 14, 2005, 06:56 AM	#4
TravelRec. Alternative Audioproductions Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Germany / Sachsen-Anhalt Posts: 1,710 Rep Power: 0	Check in the SPDIF/I2S status window whether the live card recognizes a valid audio signal on 44.1kHz, so the R, S, V - flags are on?! If yes, the philips card does not produce a sound at 44.1, however... if the flags are off or only partially on, then the signal stream is damaged anyhow. __________________ Always take a look behind.

Oct 17, 2005, 09:30 AM	#6
TravelRec. Alternative Audioproductions Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Germany / Sachsen-Anhalt Posts: 1,710 Rep Power: 0	If there is no v-flag, the stream is faulty. BTW: on which SPDIF input of the Live! you have connected the Philips SPDIF out? Is the Philips SPDIF signal on TTL or on coaxial level, so 5V or 0.5V ?! If it´s TTL it can be connected on every SPDIF input of the Live!, if it´s coaxial, it can be connected on CD-SPDIF input only. __________________ Always take a look behind.

Oct 19, 2005, 06:32 AM	#8
TravelRec. Alternative Audioproductions Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Germany / Sachsen-Anhalt Posts: 1,710 Rep Power: 0	You don´t have answered my question?! Is the level from the philips card on TTL 5V or on coaxial 0.5V? Anyway - if it makes no difference where you connect it.... Are your cables you use for connection shielded and short and of the right impedance? __________________ Always take a look behind.

Oct 13, 2005, 02:22 PM	Thread Starter #3
wunden DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 18 Rep Power: 0	The line-in on the Live! works perfectly. I can even get sound from the Philips card when I record something via mme in an application (magix audio studio) where I have forced a samplerate of 48 kHz and play this back in the same application . At 44.1 kHz kx recognizes the signal on spdif in, I just don't get any sound.

Oct 15, 2005, 12:47 AM	Thread Starter #5
wunden DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 18 Rep Power: 0	First of all thank you for your quick answer, travelrec. There is actually no [v] flag set, only [r] and [s], but strangely enough this is the case for both 44.1 and 48 kHz. I tried the following workaround for my problem: I installed asio4all drivers for the philips card and run a recording program with these drivers. When I create a track with samplerate set to 48 kHz and switch on monitoring, I can route the incoming signal to the SBLive. However, I haven't checked what this means for latency, and it is a rather complicated setup. So if there are any more ideas as to what's wrong, I would be very glad. BTW, I made the connection between the two cards by soldering an RCA plug to a two-pin digital audio cable.

Oct 19, 2005, 12:31 PM	Thread Starter #9
wunden DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 18 Rep Power: 0	Unfortunately I have no means of measuring the output level, but as you said, it doesn't work either way. As for cables, I used a standard two pin cable which you normally use to connect the digital out of the CD-drive to digital CD-in of the soundcard. I removed one of the plugs and soldered an ordinary RCA plug to the end of it which connects to the external spdif out of the philips card. The cable is now about 40 cm long. I assumed a cable like that should work since it works with the internal digital connections, but maybe I am completely wrong here...

Oct 19, 2005, 06:40 PM	#10
Maddogg6 Tail Razer Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Bernyurass, AZ - USA Posts: 4,027 Rep Power: 0	At first I suspected the cable that was modded - but the card sees a signal. TravelRec: Would a bit depth make a difference? ie.. if the phillips card outputs 44Khz/24bit. What does happen in those cases? - drop the 8 LSb (least significant bits), or more of a division/math conversion? I noticed - when I (accidentially but massively) overdrive an input on my card - they go silent, like an 'auto mute' to protect speakers or maybe the inputs, not sure if this is hardware or if KX does this tho. 24 bit depth may sound ok through the philips card, but may covert to an overdriven signal on the Live card. ?? A quick test of simply lowering the phillips card output level may lead somewhere. Can the phillips card change the spdifs output bitdepth (16/20/24/32)? if no, what is the bit depth? Just throwing out ideas. Hmm.. Curious... I just noticed my front panel SPDIF is connected, and I got a pop-up notify by KX indicating that its active, and I can hear it, but no input is showing in the KX S/PDIF status screen.

Oct 19, 2005, 07:52 PM	Thread Starter #11
wunden DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 18 Rep Power: 0	According to the product specifications the max bit depth is 16 bit, so that doesn't seem to be the problem.

Oct 20, 2005, 06:14 AM	#12
TravelRec. Alternative Audioproductions Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Germany / Sachsen-Anhalt Posts: 1,710 Rep Power: 0	Anyway - the Live! should accept any 32k to 48k at 16Bit to 24Bit by specification. The SPDIF input is relatively flexible. I think that the cable is a way too long, mine are even shorter - say a half of yours. But without a scope you can´t check anything to see what´s wrong. If you are able to do, try another card, instead of the philips, for testing. __________________ Always take a look behind.

Oct 21, 2005, 09:43 PM	Thread Starter #13
wunden DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 18 Rep Power: 0	The only thing i was able to test so far was putting the philips card into another machine with a live drive and connecting the philips output externally with a regular RCA audio cable (length ca. 1m) to the spdif in of the live drive. I get exactly the same results (no [v] flag, sound coming through at 48 kHz), so the cable should not be the problem (or both cables are too long...). I am going to replace the philips card for more testing as soon as I can lay my hands on another card with digital out.

Oct 22, 2005, 01:13 PM	#14
TravelRec. Alternative Audioproductions Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Germany / Sachsen-Anhalt Posts: 1,710 Rep Power: 0	Yes, this is probably the best solution. Thanks for reporting. __________________ Always take a look behind.

Oct 28, 2005, 08:47 PM	Thread Starter #15
wunden DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 18 Rep Power: 0	Just in case somebody is still inerested: I tested the whole setup with a Sound Blaster 4.1 digital card as a "slave". The connecting cable is made of the other half of the digital connecting cable I had already used for my first tests and a 3.5' plug which goes into the digital out of the 4.1 card. Results are as follows: The spdif signal of the card is now more or less steady at 48 kHz, but there is still no [v] flag. I can now record audio via the line-in of the slave card, but there is some background noise. When I tested with my cheap keyboard as a source, the spdif signal was running wild when the keyboard was plugged in without playing, it steadied when I hit some notes. This all seems pretty mysterious to me. Maybe someone who has a working setup with two cards connected digitally could post some details about his setup, especially the kind of cables and plugs ahich are used.

Oct 29, 2005, 11:43 AM	#16
Doug W HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Montevideo, MN USA Posts: 973 Rep Power: 0	I will look at my setup this weekend. I don't exactly know what the [V] valid audio means, but it never appear for SBLives, only the Audigy cards. It doesn't mean you have invalid audio.

Nov 8, 2005, 07:46 PM	Thread Starter #17
wunden DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 18 Rep Power: 0	Just to put an end to this thread: I finally went and got me a live! platinum, threw out the cards without the kx drivers and hooked my old live! value to the platinum via spdif. Now the digital connection works perfectly (although still no [v] flag). So I am not going to worry about what went wrong the first two times, especially since i now have to battle asio mapping issues... Once again thanx for all the help.

Nov 9, 2005, 01:47 AM	#18
Doug W HardwareHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Montevideo, MN USA Posts: 973 Rep Power: 0	I don't exactly know what the V (valid) really means since my SBLives worked together when I didn't have a V and when I got my Audigy I, I got a V and likewise with the Audigy 2 ZS but V or no V, glad it is working for you.