redocneXk released - Realtime 5.1 ac3 Encoder

Russ · Mar 4, 2006, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DragonofSilence

after restarting I've little muted breaks after some seconds of Sound.. . Is there any buffersetting that i can change to solf these Problem?.. or where can i get an other ASIO version.. and how to config??..

and is there n possibility to load the redocneXf.exe at startup?.. and one to push it in the background??..

Go into the ASIO Control Panel (under Settings in the kX menu), and try different latencies, and sync methods to see which works best for you.

As for loading RedocneXk at sartup, I am not sure, as I am not sure if the kX ASIO driver is available before kX finishes loading, but you could try it (create a shortcut with the appropriate command line switches (and you can make it start minimized, etc) in the Windows startup folder).

I think this may be an kX addon at some point in the future, and thus would be able to be started with kX, and run hidden, etc, but for now, your options are limited.

Tril · Mar 4, 2006, 07:44 PM

You could find a freeware tool that will start redocneXk with a delay. Example : Startup Delayer at http://www.snapfiles.com/Freeware/system/fwstartup.html

I haven't tried it but it would probably work if it gives enough delay. You can add up to 2 min of delay.

SynthDude2001 · Mar 5, 2006, 12:10 AM

Wow...it's been quite a while since I've checked on this thread (I'm not often in situations where I need realtime Dolby Digital over SPDIF), but I'm amazed to see that it looks like this can be used with the Creative drivers now!

I hate to ask something that may have already been answered, but I couldn't quite tell if there's a best way to set this up or not...What command line would I use for an Audigy 2 running the latest Creative drivers? And do I have to do any other setup (like to change the latency)?

Thanks!

ROBSCIX · Mar 5, 2006, 12:23 AM

This does not work with Creative Drivers! YOU have to have KX drivers loaded.

**dj_stick** · Mar 5, 2006, 12:43 AM

Rob, even though it's designed for kX, iirc it actually will work with any ASIO enabled drivers, i think someone managed to get it to work via ASIO 4 ALL

ROBSCIX · Mar 5, 2006, 01:01 AM

Really? Sorry, I stand corrected. I thought it needed KX to function properly. so somebody has/had it working with Creative Drivers? Wow...How?

**dj_stick** · Mar 5, 2006, 01:40 AM

possibly through ASIO 4 ALL, and tweaking the command line to use the correct asio channels… probably a bit more complex than with kX, but possible

Tril · Mar 5, 2006, 01:50 AM

I posted a small explanation in the first post to explain what to do to get it working with the Creative drivers.

SynthDude2001 · Mar 5, 2006, 01:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tril

I posted a small explanation in the first post to explain what to do to get it working with the Creative drivers.

Cool, I will have to try that out when I get a chance...thanks again!

Tessier · Mar 5, 2006, 05:35 PM

Just others trying to use redocneXk with the Creative drivers, I have also experienced missing sounds in DirectSound 3D applications. So, I monitored all the ASIO inputs while playing different sounds.

The test of the Creative Mixer uses the correct ASIO channels (eg when I set 5.1 only FC, FR, RR, RL, FL and SW produce any sound). This is also true when using multi-channel DirectX applications, such as Foobar with DX output and upmixing.

Unfortunately, it seems that the Creative driver behaves differntly with DiretSound 3D applications (ones using positional audio, so the HRTF processing of the card). In this case, irrespectively of the Speaker setting, all ASIO channels are used, even SR, SL and RC (surround right, left and rear center (duplicated channel)). So, this is why I (and maybe others) don't hear any sound when sound source is on the left (only SL produces sound), on the right (SR) or back (RC).
A simple solution may be to record all ASIO channels and produce new 6 channel version within the redocneXk:
FR = FR + SR (or FR + 0.7*SR)
RR = RR + SR+ RC (or RR + 0.7*SR + 0.7*RC)
RL = RL + SL + RC (or RL + 0.7*SL + 0.7*RC)
FL = FL + SL (or FL + 0.7*SL)

I am not sure if Creative drivers do the same, but maybe they can be reverse engineered by recording ASIO channels and the 5.1 analog output and comparing them in the three problematic cases.

Tril, could you please implement this to test quality? (ps. thanks for this utility, it was a great idea)

ROBSCIX · Mar 5, 2006, 05:42 PM

Tril wrote that when using Creative Drivers you can't get full AC-3 surround sound with Creative drivers..as there is no way to upmix-in KX we can use surrounder...So there is no point in using this with Creative Labs because they already send stereo over SPDIF...if one uses this it will only do the same correct? Then other worote you can get surround sound with CL drivers?..anybody can clear this up? does it function in games? or sometimes only?

Tessier · Mar 5, 2006, 06:34 PM

It works with Creative drivers, even in games. However, there are some issues, positional 3D audio has missing sounds (at least in DirectSound3D, I have not tested OpanAL, but I guess it is the same).

Russ · Mar 5, 2006, 06:39 PM

@Tessier
Out of curiousity, when you did your testing, did you have Windows set to 5.1? (i.e. Not just in the Creative Mixer, but in Sounds and Audio Devices in the Control Panel).

Tril · Mar 5, 2006, 06:45 PM

Tessier, I can do that. I can modify the program to mix the channels in software. This gives me the idea that when I make a GUI, I could give a try at making a mixing matrix like you see in Media Player Classic or ac3filter.

What about the front center channel, does it need to be mixed from other channels?

Tessier · Mar 5, 2006, 07:21 PM

@Russ
Yes, my Mixer is synchronized with the control panel.

@Tril
Thanks. I don't think the front center should be mixed, it is correct, however the channel matrix is a good idea.
BTW, I have used Rightmark DS3D (http://audio.rightmark.org/products/rm3ds.shtml) and Sensaura 3D Player (http://www.sensaura.com/demos/index....e=player3d.htm) for testing, so other Audigy owners may verify these results (for ASIO monitoring I used KRISTAL, there is a trial version: http://www.kreatives.org/kristal/ind...ection=details).

Still, when I position the sound source above the head, there is no sound at any ASIO channels, except MIX L and MIX R (ASIO 2 and 3, these are not front left/right). A bit weird.

DragonofSilence · Mar 6, 2006, 02:37 PM

can you post an howto for creative driver.. in games there are much better..
is it possible to use the kX mixer with creative drivers... there it's very simple to produce a side chanel out of the front and rear chanels..

Russ · Mar 6, 2006, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tessier

Still, when I position the sound source above the head, there is no sound at any ASIO channels, except MIX L and MIX R (ASIO 2 and 3, these are not front left/right). A bit weird.

It probably derives 3D Top from those inputs, and that would have to be figured into the matrixing (It is probably just a mono signal sent to both MixL and MixR when used as 3D Top). Just remember that the more ASIO channels being used, the more of a performance hit it will be (thats 9 ASIO inputs (if 3D Top is mono, otherwise it is 10).

@Tril, if you decide to do this, you should probably make it optional, so that kX users can decide which method they want to use (i.e. hardware mixing or via RedocneXk).

Russ · Mar 6, 2006, 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DragonofSilence

is it possible to use the kX mixer with creative drivers... there it's very simple to produce a side chanel out of the front and rear chanels..

No, and it is not just kxmixer that does this, it is kX in its entirety (down to the driver level) that makes the custom routing possible.

Also, it is not a matter of producing a side channel from the other channels, it is the other way around (i.e. downmixing to 5.1).

Tril · Mar 6, 2006, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ

@Tril, if you decide to do this, you should probably make it optional, so that kX users can decide which method they want to use (i.e. hardware mixing or via RedocneXk).

Of course. I've started working on the GUI. I'll add the channel matrix to it. There will be an option to activate or deactivate it and choose more than 6 ASIO inputs. What Tessier asked for requires the use of more than 6 ASIO inputs. Initially, redocneXk was made to use only 6. I prefer to keep the console version at 6 ASIO inputs.

Expect a delay of a few weeks for this new version. It's my first time making a GUI with c++ so I'm learning it while programming and I have a real life too

. I looked into minimizing to systray yesterday and this part now works.

DragonofSilence · Mar 6, 2006, 04:55 PM

which ASIO driver should be used for creatives latest Audigy2 drivers...
is this a good one??.. http://www.asio4all.de ..
do you have a compled version which disapers in the tray??.. the gui is not important at the moment.. but the window is anoying

Russ · Mar 6, 2006, 05:06 PM

You should use Creative'a ASIO driver (Creative ASIO / Sound Blaster Audigy ASIO driver) when using Creative's drivers.

The current version does not minimize to the system tray (see Tril's last post).

DragonofSilence · Mar 6, 2006, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Tril: I looked into minimizing to systray yesterday and this part now works.

..so I think it works now, won't it??..

Russ · Mar 6, 2006, 05:22 PM

Probably, but he has not released a version with that capability as of yet.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tril

Expect a delay of a few weeks for this new version.

DragonofSilence · Mar 6, 2006, 05:59 PM

everything correct.. I should be something like a queststion for posting the version he already has, if it's working... becourse I don't need a gui.. except of the minimize funktion..
...doesn't matter..

where can I get these "Creative ASIO / Sound Blaster Audigy ASIO drivers" .. don't found them..

thx for fast replys Russ..

Russ · Mar 6, 2006, 06:13 PM

Are you using the CL drivers? (previously you were using kX, right? Why the change?)
They are installed with the CL driver. Use "RedocneXk -d" to see the list of available drivers.

Tril · Mar 6, 2006, 06:53 PM

It's supposed to work with the ASIO drivers that come with the Creative drivers.

The minimize to tray is for the version with a GUI I'm working on. redocneXk was never meant to use more than 6 ASIO ports and never meant to do sofware encoding so it takes some work to change that and still retain the current capabilities.

I can make a special test version only for the Creative drivers with the mixing suggested by Tessier harcoded in it. This will have the inputs hardcoded to those used by the Creative drivers. This can be done faster (one day) since I don't need to retain compability with other settings.

I need one info for this. There are two "Mix RC". Which do I use?

RhysF · Mar 6, 2006, 08:54 PM

Tril, as far as I can tell from monitoring with Kristal the two RC channels are the same, so I guess either will do.
Regarding the mixing of channels, would it make sense to start from Mix-L/Mix-R and subtract channels? - this would make sure the 3d top sounds described above are still heard i.e.
_FL= MixL - FC - RL - RC -(0.3SL), (and reversed for R). (I think this should be equivalent to _FL=FL+0.7SL assuming MIX L=FC+FL+SL+RL+RC as Kristal appears to suggest)
_FC= MixL -FL -SL-RL-RC
_RL=MixL - FC -FL (-0.3SL -0.3RC)

DragonOfSilence - to use the creative asio drivers you need to set their latency lower than default. The only way I've found to access the controls is through Kristal. Go to Engine, Preferences. Chooes Audio Setup and press ASIO control panel. I'm using 2ms latency.

Tril · Mar 7, 2006, 02:51 AM

I've made a test version for the Creative drivers. Use it for the games where there are missing sounds. The ASIO inputs are harcoded so you don't need to use -i. You only need to choose the Creative ASIO driver with -d.The software mixing is hardcoded like this :
- redocneXk_1 :
- FR = FR + SR
- RR = RR + SR+ RC
- RL = RL + SL + RC
- FL = FL + SL
-redocneXk_2 :
- FR = FR + 0.7*SR
- RR = RR + 0.7*SR + 0.7*RC
- RL = RL + 0.7*SL + 0.7*RC
- FL = FL + 0.7*SL

The file avcodec.dll is not included. Copy this file from the standard release of version 1.04 found in the first post to the forder of the test version.

Link here to redocneXk_v1.04Test.zip

It's untested as I don't have the hardware to test it.

RhysF, your idea would probably work if the volume for the mixing of each channels was know. The drivers could be using *.7 or *.8 or *.9 or ... We don't know (at least I don't). You also have to take into account the precision of floating-point calculations that could (or not) cause audible artifacts with this calculation.

DragonofSilence · Mar 7, 2006, 03:13 PM

i just want to try which drivers is the best for me.. for music and dvds kX is very good.. but for playing the Creative drivers are better.. i think.. . I installed latest drivers.. .and startet the new test 1.04.. but there is no signal.. now i'm downloading kristal an will have a try..

the windows closes wenn i add -o ..in every version ... why??
is it nor correct??

Quote:

"C:\Dokumente und Einstellungen\DragonofSilence\Desktop\redocneXk_v1 .04Test\redocneXk_1.exe" -o

Russ · Mar 7, 2006, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DragonofSilence

i just want to try which drivers is the best for me.. for music and dvds kX is very good.. but for playing the Creative drivers are better.. i think.. . I installed latest drivers.. .and startet the new test 1.04.. but there is no signal.. now i'm downloading kristal an will have a try..

the windows closes wenn i add -o ..in every version ... why??
is it nor correct??

You probably forgot to copy over avcodec.dll from the the other (non-test) version.

BTW: What is the full command line you are using?

If you are using "redocneXk -o" to see the list of drivers, you should run it from the CMD prompt. Same thing goes for "redocneXk -d".

Mar 5, 2006, 06:39 PM	#283
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,507 Rep Power: 61	@Tessier Out of curiousity, when you did your testing, did you have Windows set to 5.1? (i.e. Not just in the Creative Mixer, but in Sounds and Audio Devices in the Control Panel). Last edited by Russ; Mar 5, 2006 at 06:45 PM.

Mar 5, 2006, 06:45 PM	Thread Starter #284
Tril S-3D enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1,675 Rep Power: 62 System Specs	Tessier, I can do that. I can modify the program to mix the channels in software. This gives me the idea that when I make a GUI, I could give a try at making a mixing matrix like you see in Media Player Classic or ac3filter. What about the front center channel, does it need to be mixed from other channels? Last edited by Tril; Mar 5, 2006 at 06:53 PM.

Mar 6, 2006, 04:55 PM	#290
DragonofSilence DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 13 Rep Power: 0	which ASIO driver should be used for creatives latest Audigy2 drivers... is this a good one??.. http://www.asio4all.de .. do you have a compled version which disapers in the tray??.. the gui is not important at the moment.. but the window is anoying Last edited by DragonofSilence; Mar 6, 2006 at 05:00 PM.

Mar 6, 2006, 08:54 PM	#297
RhysF DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 9 Rep Power: 0	Tril, as far as I can tell from monitoring with Kristal the two RC channels are the same, so I guess either will do. Regarding the mixing of channels, would it make sense to start from Mix-L/Mix-R and subtract channels? - this would make sure the 3d top sounds described above are still heard i.e. _FL= MixL - FC - RL - RC -(0.3SL), (and reversed for R). (I think this should be equivalent to _FL=FL+0.7SL assuming MIX L=FC+FL+SL+RL+RC as Kristal appears to suggest) _FC= MixL -FL -SL-RL-RC _RL=MixL - FC -FL (-0.3SL -0.3RC) DragonOfSilence - to use the creative asio drivers you need to set their latency lower than default. The only way I've found to access the controls is through Kristal. Go to Engine, Preferences. Chooes Audio Setup and press ASIO control panel. I'm using 2ms latency. Last edited by RhysF; Mar 6, 2006 at 10:52 PM.

Mar 4, 2006, 07:44 PM	Thread Starter #272
Tril S-3D enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1,675 Rep Power: 62 System Specs	You could find a freeware tool that will start redocneXk with a delay. Example : Startup Delayer at http://www.snapfiles.com/Freeware/system/fwstartup.html I haven't tried it but it would probably work if it gives enough delay. You can add up to 2 min of delay.

Mar 5, 2006, 12:10 AM	#273
SynthDude2001 DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 6 Rep Power: 0	Wow...it's been quite a while since I've checked on this thread (I'm not often in situations where I need realtime Dolby Digital over SPDIF), but I'm amazed to see that it looks like this can be used with the Creative drivers now! I hate to ask something that may have already been answered, but I couldn't quite tell if there's a best way to set this up or not...What command line would I use for an Audigy 2 running the latest Creative drivers? And do I have to do any other setup (like to change the latency)? Thanks!

Mar 5, 2006, 12:23 AM	#274
ROBSCIX DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,732 Rep Power: 0	This does not work with Creative Drivers! YOU have to have KX drivers loaded.

Mar 5, 2006, 01:01 AM	#276
ROBSCIX DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,732 Rep Power: 0	Really? Sorry, I stand corrected. I thought it needed KX to function properly. so somebody has/had it working with Creative Drivers? Wow...How?

Mar 5, 2006, 01:50 AM	Thread Starter #278
Tril S-3D enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1,675 Rep Power: 62 System Specs	I posted a small explanation in the first post to explain what to do to get it working with the Creative drivers.

Mar 5, 2006, 05:35 PM	#280
Tessier DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 4 Rep Power: 0	Just others trying to use redocneXk with the Creative drivers, I have also experienced missing sounds in DirectSound 3D applications. So, I monitored all the ASIO inputs while playing different sounds. The test of the Creative Mixer uses the correct ASIO channels (eg when I set 5.1 only FC, FR, RR, RL, FL and SW produce any sound). This is also true when using multi-channel DirectX applications, such as Foobar with DX output and upmixing. Unfortunately, it seems that the Creative driver behaves differntly with DiretSound 3D applications (ones using positional audio, so the HRTF processing of the card). In this case, irrespectively of the Speaker setting, all ASIO channels are used, even SR, SL and RC (surround right, left and rear center (duplicated channel)). So, this is why I (and maybe others) don't hear any sound when sound source is on the left (only SL produces sound), on the right (SR) or back (RC). A simple solution may be to record all ASIO channels and produce new 6 channel version within the redocneXk: FR = FR + SR (or FR + 0.7SR) RR = RR + SR+ RC (or RR + 0.7SR + 0.7RC) RL = RL + SL + RC (or RL + 0.7SL + 0.7RC) FL = FL + SL (or FL + 0.7SL) I am not sure if Creative drivers do the same, but maybe they can be reverse engineered by recording ASIO channels and the 5.1 analog output and comparing them in the three problematic cases. Tril, could you please implement this to test quality? (ps. thanks for this utility, it was a great idea)

Mar 5, 2006, 05:42 PM	#281
ROBSCIX DriverHeaven Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 1,732 Rep Power: 0	Tril wrote that when using Creative Drivers you can't get full AC-3 surround sound with Creative drivers..as there is no way to upmix-in KX we can use surrounder...So there is no point in using this with Creative Labs because they already send stereo over SPDIF...if one uses this it will only do the same correct? Then other worote you can get surround sound with CL drivers?..anybody can clear this up? does it function in games? or sometimes only?

Mar 5, 2006, 06:34 PM	#282
Tessier DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 4 Rep Power: 0	It works with Creative drivers, even in games. However, there are some issues, positional 3D audio has missing sounds (at least in DirectSound3D, I have not tested OpanAL, but I guess it is the same).

Mar 5, 2006, 07:21 PM	#285
Tessier DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 4 Rep Power: 0	@Russ Yes, my Mixer is synchronized with the control panel. @Tril Thanks. I don't think the front center should be mixed, it is correct, however the channel matrix is a good idea. BTW, I have used Rightmark DS3D (http://audio.rightmark.org/products/rm3ds.shtml) and Sensaura 3D Player (http://www.sensaura.com/demos/index....e=player3d.htm) for testing, so other Audigy owners may verify these results (for ASIO monitoring I used KRISTAL, there is a trial version: http://www.kreatives.org/kristal/ind...ection=details). Still, when I position the sound source above the head, there is no sound at any ASIO channels, except MIX L and MIX R (ASIO 2 and 3, these are not front left/right). A bit weird.

Mar 6, 2006, 02:37 PM	#286
DragonofSilence DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 13 Rep Power: 0	can you post an howto for creative driver.. in games there are much better.. is it possible to use the kX mixer with creative drivers... there it's very simple to produce a side chanel out of the front and rear chanels..

Mar 6, 2006, 05:06 PM	#291
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,507 Rep Power: 61	You should use Creative'a ASIO driver (Creative ASIO / Sound Blaster Audigy ASIO driver) when using Creative's drivers. The current version does not minimize to the system tray (see Tril's last post).

Mar 6, 2006, 05:59 PM	#294
DragonofSilence DriverHeaven Newbie Join Date: Mar 2006 Posts: 13 Rep Power: 0	everything correct.. I should be something like a queststion for posting the version he already has, if it's working... becourse I don't need a gui.. except of the minimize funktion.. ...doesn't matter.. where can I get these "Creative ASIO / Sound Blaster Audigy ASIO drivers" .. don't found them.. thx for fast replys Russ..

Mar 6, 2006, 06:13 PM	#295
Russ HardwareHeaven Extreme Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 5,507 Rep Power: 61	Are you using the CL drivers? (previously you were using kX, right? Why the change?) They are installed with the CL driver. Use "RedocneXk -d" to see the list of available drivers.

Mar 6, 2006, 06:53 PM	Thread Starter #296
Tril S-3D enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1,675 Rep Power: 62 System Specs	It's supposed to work with the ASIO drivers that come with the Creative drivers. The minimize to tray is for the version with a GUI I'm working on. redocneXk was never meant to use more than 6 ASIO ports and never meant to do sofware encoding so it takes some work to change that and still retain the current capabilities. I can make a special test version only for the Creative drivers with the mixing suggested by Tessier harcoded in it. This will have the inputs hardcoded to those used by the Creative drivers. This can be done faster (one day) since I don't need to retain compability with other settings. I need one info for this. There are two "Mix RC". Which do I use?

Mar 7, 2006, 02:51 AM	Thread Starter #298
Tril S-3D enthusiast Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Canada Posts: 1,675 Rep Power: 62 System Specs	I've made a test version for the Creative drivers. Use it for the games where there are missing sounds. The ASIO inputs are harcoded so you don't need to use -i. You only need to choose the Creative ASIO driver with -d.The software mixing is hardcoded like this : - redocneXk_1 : - FR = FR + SR - RR = RR + SR+ RC - RL = RL + SL + RC - FL = FL + SL -redocneXk_2 : - FR = FR + 0.7SR - RR = RR + 0.7SR + 0.7RC - RL = RL + 0.7SL + 0.7RC - FL = FL + 0.7SL The file avcodec.dll is not included. Copy this file from the standard release of version 1.04 found in the first post to the forder of the test version. Link here to redocneXk_v1.04Test.zip It's untested as I don't have the hardware to test it. RhysF, your idea would probably work if the volume for the mixing of each channels was know. The drivers could be using .7 or .8 or *.9 or ... We don't know (at least I don't). You also have to take into account the precision of floating-point calculations that could (or not) cause audible artifacts with this calculation.