Maddogg6

I just wondering anyone has much experience they could share.
Like will it work with KX? (in XP?) - or will I be blazing new trails here?

Or like the term 'Canonical' (means 'standard') as applied to CSound - pointing out a 'standard' version of CSound infers multiple vesrions - Its confusing. But them MIT eggheads like to make things harder than it has to be - can anyone say PGP? Or is It Im not as smart as them eggheads.. ?? lol

Anyway - its like super powerful and I beleive can perform some DSP functions the KX cant handle (in real-time if PC is fast enough it sounds like too) like FFTs and such. I did read about realtime midi playback.

Even has a VST wrapper/interface and its been around since the 80's and is STILL (actively??) being developed.

Its open source (I beleive anyway - the source is available, I assumed that means its open source)

Theres a WIN GUI and WIN console version - as well as Linux & Mac versions

Anyway its here:
http://csounds.com

kXfanatic

So, what's the point? Why isn't CSound supposed to work with kX the same way as with any other driver?

Maddogg6

well - there ARE some things that wont work with KX

Like using an ATI AIW tv capture card for instance - as reported by someone else in these forums - My Haupauge TV capture card will ONLY work if I use its built in sound device. The included SW gives the option to send audio to a line in of a sound card to record via the soundcards LINE IN - but this does not work also.

I'm trying to figure out how to make CSound process in realtime with no sucess - not sure if it will work or not - or If Im missing something.

But I presume from the lack of response means no-one has fiddled with it... oh well.

One attractive use of CSound is making your own VST effects (maybe VSTi too... still learning) that can be used in Cubase or Sonar.

Russ

That is strange. I am curious as to how the cards are connected. My brother had an old Hauppauge TV card and you had to connect the cards together. i.e. You had to run a cable into the sound cards line_in, so I am not sure how kX would have any effect in this configuration, unless the line_in was not working at all (or maybe some software conflict). Another thing I remember about that card was that Hauppauge had of few different versions of its software, and only certain versions would work correctly with certain models (although I am talking about a pretty old model here). Maybe your card is different, but I am not sure how it could use the sound cards line_in if it is not connected to it.

As for CSound, I have never used it. Sorry for going off-topic, but you caught my curiousity with that part of your post.

Maddogg6

I have it going to KX LINE IN (rear) and works fine for watching.

I beleive the SW wants to be able to 'enable the LINE IN input for recording' and possible set audio levels.

ITS NOT that the SW sets a 0 level either - I tried changing this WHILE recording...with KX records NO audio - where ROBSCIX was trying an AIW and it did the same (or mabe error out..??)

Also like messenger *could* auto adjust mic levels (and now 'echo cancelation'), and cant with KX..

I beleive its also related to the fact we cant use the WINDOWS mixer - I believe these programs are accessing those controls through whatever the windows mixer is using - but will fail.

Oh - and WinDVD7 doesnt work also - no sound no matter what I try. This is a bit more of a mystery as *it should* be using the default device set in Win MM settings.

So - with KX - I can watch TV no problem with KX Line in (its how I doit) - but I record with the TV (its USB btw) captures audio device.

There is 2 versions - but I only like the WINTV2000 - the other is older, but I never did try it... oh - thats right, it wont do scheduled recordings - where wintv2000 will.

Russ

Ok, I see what you are saying, and that makes more sense to me (my mistake my brain did not register the word 'record' correctly, lol ).

Maddogg6

I just checked something...

The Audio options in the Capture software, when set to use an external audio device to reord from, indicates the same available inputs (Line, Mic, Aux etc..) as the windows mixer shows available with KX - so Im thinking this supports my statements also.

Russ

I understand what you are saying about kX and the Windows mixer, but do not confuse the playback inputs with the recording inputs in Windows mixer (unless yours is different than mine). Check 'Options' -> 'Properties' -> 'Recording' for the recording inputs. I have only 'Recording Level' whereas with other drivers all the inputs would be listed. Out of curiousity, when you tried recording, did you have kX setup to record from Line_In using MME?

Maddogg6

Yes - I did have SRC-MIXY4x2 (just to see and set levels) - KXLT/WinMM recording

Your right - the Capture software is showing only playback devices shown in win mixer - and in windows mixer - no recording devices appear (for wave HQ, but there is 1 for each of the KX ports.. 0/1, 2/3 etc..)
BUT - the capture software shows the same thing as windos playback devices.

edit: The capture sw is showing playback inputs, but its a setting for recording..??
-------------

I tried wave HQ, 0/1 - and tied those to the winMM recording input on KXLT - no sound recorded.

Does Messenger's auto mic level work for you? - or is my system screwed up somehow...

I guess I ask this, because your questions reguarding the recording issues are making me wonder if they are unique. - is this so?

Everything thing else works as far a I can tell.

Russ

Sorry, I have never tried using Windows messaenger's voice chat, but I can understand why i would not work. (I will try it out when I can, it is too late for me to do that now.).

Regarding your recording setup, although I think that should have worked too, I would probably connect Line_In (i.e. AC97 from prolog) diretly to MME, rather than using wave HQ. i.e. Setup similar to how I recommend to people for TeamSpeak, except using Line_In instead.

BTW: I did not mean to make you think that your situation is unique, I am just curious as I think it should work in the same way the Windows Sound Recorder works.

Maddogg6

Well - because I have Wave HQ as default win record and playback - I tied P16V to winmm recording...

Edited: (Im tired) When I changed win default devices to Wave 0/1 - I tied SRC AC97 and AC972 (both mixed) to win MM record. - I was certain this would be correct.. no?

Maddogg6

Also - can host SW detect how the KX DSP is configured - no matter what I change in DSP - the capture SW shows same inputs. Until, I change default playback device - changing default recording device makes no change in capture SW...??? this seems very strange to me.

Id expect the SW to detect recording devices and not playback... maybe its easier to program..?

Russ

I do not have Wave HQ, so I am not completely sure what that is, but, it sounds like you are using kX's 'what you hear' type of recording instead of the way it would be done with other drivers, but I cannot be sure. I would think any signal that you send to MME would get recorded, regarless of which input you choose in the software, so I think your way should work, but I would try the other way just to see if there is any difference (i.e. You could use ProFX ADC plugin connected directly to MME).

No, I do not think the SW knows about kX's configuration as far as recording goes. I think that all it really does is unmute the recording input in Windows mixer (which it cannot do with kX), and then listens in on MME.

Maddogg6

Wave HQ is the device used to record/playback 24/96 - this is availaible in the DSP through P16V (for playback) plugin (it has 8 output pins FR,FL,C,LFE,??, ??, RR,RL) is also where I get AC3 decoded signals too. I tied the all these outputs to a mixer and sent to winMM record. Natta.

For 'what you hear' - I would set A PROFEX/ADC to stereo Mix - and adjust each level independantly (Line, Mic, Aux).

So - I tried playing a MP3 while recording to see if it would reord that audio (from FXBUSS 0/1 - winamp using that playback device) - Its like: if it cant set a record level - it quitely moves on and records 0db level audio - flat line (not a bit of noise) - BUT there is an audio 'matrixed' into the MPG file recorded - its just absolutely silent.

When I say SRC before - I did mean ADC (The 1st version of profex had it all lumped into SRC and mix them up verbally)

Russ

Thanks for the info on Wave HQ. 10k1 cards do not have this, that is why I do not know about it. I am curious, can you record using Windows Sound Recorder?

Maddogg6

No windows sound recorder doesnt work either... hmm, this is getting more and more interesting... Im using 3538h btw..

ASIO works fine tho.


AHHH - Im on to something here.... If I set default recording device to wave HQ - natta - but it does work with wave 0/1.

Ill have to try some more tomarrow - I may have missed this combination...

Ill have to see what is the deal is here. So its looking like Im not able to record 24/96 (I use 16/48 with ASIO, so not a big deal...) but I wonder what plugin/pins I would send to (Like WinMM) to record 24/96.

But I gotta get some sleep now... so Ill get back tomarrow..

Thanks a ton Russ..

Russ

Hmm, I suspected that. Sound Recorder uses MME for recording, and the way Windows works, pretty much any program that uses MME for recording, in the end uses the same Windows API functions to do it. So if it works in Sound Recorder, than I would think that your TV card software would work, and vice-versa. Again, I do not have the 24/96/Wave HQ stuff, so I cannot comment about that, but I would think that connecting AC97 directly to MME (ie. using ProFX ADC), should get around any 24/96 issues, no?

In any case, go get some sleep

Maddogg6

Re-confirmed - 'Audius no Capturous'

Im sending same content to listen (Analog Rear) to WinMM recording...
Then I record.
Then I load my settings that DO PLAYBACK MPGS correctly.
No Audio

OK - I just looked at the MPG attributes - and now Im pretty certain that its not working now because its (trying) to use 44Hhz to try to record with. I dont see how to change this either.

The attributes Read;
Audio: 44Khz 0biits

So I was wrong about the why - not sure how I missed this before.
But it still is no go.

The TV card doesnt have the 'ONLY 48Khz' limit as KX...

But its not a big deal... I can record with it anyway. But others with AIW, sounds like their not so lucky. A Sample Rate converter built into KX *could* elliminate these problems... but I would not request that to be implemented over having the issues at hand fixed instead.
MIDI CH10 Drums is WAY more important to me.

Russ

Are you still talking about the 24/96 thing or something else?

BTW: Here is something interesting from the kX help:
Also, buffer the connections to MME. i.e. FxBus should not be directly connected to MME (buffer it with another plugin like a mixer). I do not know if it is the same for p16v or not, but it is possible, so I would do the same thing there. I know you used a mixer in some of your tests, but maybe not all of them?

Maddogg6

Just regular wave 0/1 AND wave HQ do not work after more testing - Im pretty certain I was just too tired last night - but I tried again as soon as I woke this morning..


Yes - I had read this elsewhere... I *almost* always go though at least a mixer (MX6 or Mixy4x2) - mostly so I can see levels with out a peak. Even tho direct connects have worked or me in playing around (after reading this I HAD to test it out.. hehe).

I assume now, that because I cant set sample rate to 48 in the host (vid cap SW) is my root problem - its seems hardcoded in the capture SW at 44Khz.

Maybe theres an ini file Im not finding (named something NOT logical to me..??

Also... - I did know about the SPDIF direct record to record from P16V - I have played with that a little - I was too tired to remeber last night (was 3am here).. lol - I DO use SPDIF IN from my guitar processor in 48Khz regularly w/ Direct Record - and had to change (read: re-figure out what I had changed) the DIRECT RECORD port - after knocking my head on the wall from playing with 24/96 recording with sonar using MME - I did this JUST to see if it worked, and I did eventually - just so I can say if it works or not - but I did have a heck of a time figuring it out - even after reading about it on KX site.

So - I see now - it prolly would work if I record with DIRECT RECORD if I run the TV audio to the LINE2 IN on my front panel in instead of the rear panel LINE IN and select I2S for that in the KX mixer 24/96 record source - I assume this should record in 44Khz - If I understood what I have read in the KX help.

Russ

Then it sounds like the same issue would exist with the CL drivers, no? i.e. It is something in the WinTV2000 software. You could probably record the audio only (i.e. for testing purposes) using another application (like Sound Recorder or Creative WaveStudio, etc.) using kX Wave(0/1) (i.e. to rule out kX issue -vs- WinTV issue).

Maddogg6

woohoo - it DOES WORK... Man I spent soooo much time trying to figure this one out.

I must not be understanding something...

Is setting the file format within sound recorder - set a system default file format?

It seeming like it - because as far as I can tell - this is the ONLYthing I must have tried differently.

Thanks for your HUGE ammount of patients with me - btw, Russ. Specially for an issue that wan't really a problem per se - just more of a noggin scratcher really.

So to sumerize:

I can record using AC972 (routing AC97 to I2S) and Wave HQ device Using 44Khz
AND I can record using AC97 (no I2s Routing) with Wave 0/1 device ising 48Khz (setting in windows sound recorder. - but seems to affect WINTV2000 also)


Before 1 way wouldnt work... now 2 ways works... I feel like such a ass.

Thanks again Russ.

Russ

Interesting... My thinking was that those setiings (the default recording format) was a resampling/conversion thing, and nothing to do with the input sampling rate (and thus should not effect your ability to record).
i.e. Sound Recorder defaults to 'PCM 22.050 kHz, 8 Bit, Mono' for me, but I can change to any format I want (from the list anyway), and it still records correctly. Also, as far as it being a system wide setting, I am not sure, when I change the default recording format in Creative WaveStudio, it does not effect Sound Recorder's default setting. Definately a head scratcher, but I am glad you managed to get it working.